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Breens Encyclopedia Arrived~~short report
ambro51
Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭✭
~~~~IF you dont have this book and have a strong interest in US Coinage...you need to purchase it. (period).Yeah I think in the long run probably the best $160 Ive thrown in the general direction of Coins.
I dont know if I can legally scan pages and post them as a sample of the text...so I wont.
OK. What I think this really is is Walter Breens collected writings over a lifetime, a lot of his most current and systematic research and numbers (mintages etc ). For each coin, each variety, there is a number and he basically starts with Somers Island coinage at number 1 and goes to the Royal Hawaiian dollar at number 8035. In between is something abaout every other single coin issue and variety. He adds major text in introducing a series or other significant happening, but also a great amount of the text is actually numbers, auction sale records, prices (1988) of recent sales, rarity ratings and any remarks that are signifcant to that item. The book has a 20 page bibliography, some of the references are from the 19th century, incredible research first source quality work.
Of course He was a good writer and like any good writer makes history intersting. But there are just oodles of facts in with it all...mostly every word he writes is On Topic and by Jove that man knew a HELL of a lot about coins. Just reading in through the large cent section...amazing stuff and I dont see how if you specialize in any series from the 19th century, you cannot benefit from owning a copy of this book.
This is a serious book my Friends if you do NOT have a copy, and you have a sweeping interest in us coinage from NE shillings to susy Bs its all in this book. the photos are everywhere, good black and white closeups, varities explained, VAMs, significant diagnostics Auction sales with numbers (remember that 20 page bibiography) I mean, there are things he writes about the pioneer gold series, so intersting..you really can learn everything you need to know about US coins from this book.
So thats my Sales Pitch....now proceed to www.amazon.com and pay about 160$ or so and you can have a copy in four days.
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Comments
The hobby is probably ready for a complete revision, in electronic format. But so far, no one has come forward with the deep pockets to support such a project. Breen could leverage his years of knowledge, but today someone will have to coordinate the work of many writers.
<< <i>I really think the book is garbage. If you can't trust the author, if you know he made up facts then how can one differentiate between what is made up and what isn't. Sure if you become an expert in the fields then you can decipher fiction from nonfiction but the whole point of the book is not to become an expert int he fields immediately but rely on an encyclopedia that you purchased as a tool for research. I have become a so-called expert in my areas of study and I have found the info that he has provided in those areas incredibly lean and often without merit. Sure often his numbers are correct, and whu not they are at times directly out of other writings that present the correct facts. The book is just one big pile of ......imho. And I have lost the most money relying on what he has claimed to be rare and ex-rare almost 100% of the time in my collecting fields. >>
Realone, You should never place that much weight in any reference book as all are already progressing towards being obsolete once printed. This book is already or very close to being an antique, so it's silly IMHO to blame Breen for any financial losses. That's like shopping for the latest greatest BluRay player based on having researched LaserDisc players.
Maybe CoinFacts will fill this niche.
Just an opinion, but that is as bad or worse than Breen. Breen is mostly dead and can't update his work. Owners of the other thing have substantial revenue and resources, yet it remains incorrect on many points.
Just a sample page.....Realone if you want to print this out and just make corrections thats OK.
<< <i>
<< <i>I really think the book is garbage. If you can't trust the author, if you know he made up facts then how can one differentiate between what is made up and what isn't. Sure if you become an expert in the fields then you can decipher fiction from nonfiction but the whole point of the book is not to become an expert int he fields immediately but rely on an encyclopedia that you purchased as a tool for research. I have become a so-called expert in my areas of study and I have found the info that he has provided in those areas incredibly lean and often without merit. Sure often his numbers are correct, and whu not they are at times directly out of other writings that present the correct facts. The book is just one big pile of ......imho. And I have lost the most money relying on what he has claimed to be rare and ex-rare almost 100% of the time in my collecting fields. >>
Realone, You should never place that much weight in any reference book as all are already progressing towards being obsolete once printed. This book is already or very close to being an antique, so it's silly IMHO to blame Breen for any financial losses. That's like shopping for the latest greatest BluRay player based on having researched LaserDisc players. >>
I think you are correct with this assessment Broadstruck because the tool that gets people looking is usually the tool that goes out of date very quickly. I do not own the Breen Book but if I were to buy one, it would be just to say I had one as I realize that trends change as well as perceived facts.
As for "losing money" on coins, I think everybody has been in that boat once or twice as the only sure fire method of NOT losing money these days seems to be to buy one of them 6 million dollar nickels and then sell it after a year or so.
Anthing else is fair game for a financial whooping!
And no I'm not picking on you Al since I do agree with part of your post and I understand your frustration with folks praising it. But, you have to admit, it's a bit out of date.
A re-write would be good but could it still be called "Breen's Encyclopedia"?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I think you are correct with this assessment Broadstruck because the tool that gets people looking is usually the tool that goes out of date very quickly. I do not own the Breen Book but if I were to buy one, it would be just to say I had one as I realize that trends change as well as perceived facts. >>
19Lyds, I'm marking this one on my calander!
If all the specialists of US coin series were to participate gratis in an updated Encyclopedia (The Encyclopedia of American Coinage), I think editing, production and printing costs (5,000 paper, 5,000 digital, domestic production) would run approximately $1 million and take a year to complete. The work of acquiring photos would, alone, be a full-time job. At a cost of $100 a copy to produce and allowing for reseller and publisher profit, you're looking at $250 -$300 retail per copy.
(OK....I tend to be picky about stuff, so my estimate might be a little high. But, the book would be no good if it's packed with arcane and obsolete information, or rampant mistakes.)
I wish it were updated, like most people. It was briefly put up on the internet a while back, but copyright problems took it off line. It seems to be a shame to remove it if there is no intention to reprint it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think you are correct with this assessment Broadstruck because the tool that gets people looking is usually the tool that goes out of date very quickly. I do not own the Breen Book but if I were to buy one, it would be just to say I had one as I realize that trends change as well as perceived facts. >>
19Lyds, I'm marking this one on my calander!
Why?
Do I really disagree with you that much??
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Just to be clear, I am just trying to have a balanced forum here. I won the book, it is an enormous encyclopedia of a great about of info. I don't care if there is stale info in it, all text books of coinage depedning on how many minutes ago it was printed will have info that is stale and in need of updating. I just want to put the fear of fraud out there, that there is some misinfo in it as opposed to other authors who haven't made things up inorder to get their book to the publisher because they had a time crucnh and were going broke. To me an author of such material has a fiducuary responsibility to his readers. And I don't believe Breen felt very fiduciary like to his readers nor his young underage companions. >>
You need to be specific instead of making generalized accusations. If something was purely fraudulent, please point folks to what you are referring to otherwise it just appears to be whining.
I know that you know your stuff Al (mark your calendar as well!) but opinions have no place with regard to fraudulent accusations. Fraud must go much farther than just an opinion.
And BTW, I did not really see a need to bring up his non-numismatic activities to embellish your position. Everybody knows he was a convicted pedophile but he was also regarded as a brilliant numismatist which is the subject matter of the Encyclopedia.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to be clear, I am just trying to have a balanced forum here. I won the book, it is an enormous encyclopedia of a great about of info. I don't care if there is stale info in it, all text books of coinage depedning on how many minutes ago it was printed will have info that is stale and in need of updating. I just want to put the fear of fraud out there, that there is some misinfo in it as opposed to other authors who haven't made things up inorder to get their book to the publisher because they had a time crucnh and were going broke. To me an author of such material has a fiducuary responsibility to his readers. And I don't believe Breen felt very fiduciary like to his readers nor his young underage companions. >>
You need to be specific instead of making generalized accusations. If something was purely fraudulent, please point folks to what you are referring to otherwise it just appears to be whining.
I know that you know your stuff Al (mark your calendar as well!) but opinions have no place with regard to fraudulent accusations. Fraud must go much farther than just an opinion.
And BTW, I did not really see a need to bring up his non-numismatic activities to embellish your position. Everybody knows he was a convicted pedophile but he was also regarded as a brilliant numismatist which is the subject matter of the Encyclopedia.
I read that he had financial problems and needed to quickly finish the book by filling it with false info in order to stay afloat. That is what I meant when using the word fraud. In addition since a writer of such text needs to act in a fiduciary manner since collectors will be relying on his info I only added the fact that if he didn't act in a lawful manner with minors why would he do so with 18 and over. I wasn't trying to embellish in any way, just show the logic of his illegal actions crossing against a fiduciary capacity. >>
I understand that but it is still hearsay and unless something can be substantiated, it shouldn't really affect the content of the book.
Ah'm just sayin'
The name is LEE!
I read that he had financial problems and needed to quickly finish the book by filling it with false info in order to stay afloat. That is what I meant when using the word fraud. In addition since a writer of such text needs to act in a fiduciary manner since collectors will be relying on his info I only added the fact that if he didn't act in a lawful manner with minors why would he do so with 18 and over. I wasn't trying to embellish in any way, just show the logic of his illegal actions crossing against a fiduciary capacity.
I occasionally discussed the Encyclopedia with Walter when he working on it but I only saw
a few of the sections before publication. The problem was not deliberately false information
but rather an increasingly faulty memory, quite possibly due to drug use. On occasion I had
corrected some of the historical material and he would make notes but he also had a knack
for losing such material in the accumulated mess which passed for living quarters.
It is also true that Breen’s book has its share of mistakes but not nearly as many as popular
belief would have it. Even with flaws it is still the best overall U.S. numismatic work available.
There are of course specialized studies which have brought sections up to date.
Denga
but rather an increasingly faulty memory, quite possibly due to drug use.>>
Exhibit A Page 416
Breen explains how the initials JS on the Franklin Half caused much trouble by being mistaked for Joseph Stalin. The Treasury had forseen this problem from the Roosevelt dime days and used JRS on the half.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<<The problem was not deliberately false information
but rather an increasingly faulty memory, quite possibly due to drug use.>>
Exhibit A Page 416
Breen explains how the initials JS on the Franklin Half caused much trouble by being mistaked for Joseph Stalin. The Treasury had forseen this problem from the Roosevelt dime days and used JRS on the half.
I am not quite certain of the point being made in the above. I well remember the rumors
in the late 1940s about Stalin’s initials on the dime. Similar rumors, though not as strong,
were heard about the half dollar as well.
Denga
Breen does the same with many other coin types and thus confuses and misinforms collectors.
thanks to one and all.
also, i remember two particularly interesting stories in the Ency:
one, was about a 1933 Double Eagle that was thrown into the ocean to avoid confiscation and the other was about a trusted numismatist that was offered a 1964 Franklin Half Dollar for sale, the coin never to be seen again
maybe i'm a coin-romantic at heart, but i really want some of these Breen stories to be true! (and perhaps some are
www.brunkauctions.com
Savoy:
Director Ross was aware of the "JS" nonsense and "JRS" was used on the new half because of the publicity. The rest - 1933 DE and 1964 Franklins - is BS.
PS: the Franklin story is a good example - parts are just fine and parts are wrong and parts are rumor. The collector is faced with a dilemma: "How do I know what is good and what is not?"
My suggestion is to skip Breen's background bits and anything with the phrase "it is said that" (or similar), but keep the detailed variety for cross reference to more modern sources.
<< <i>Don't toss the book....there's a lot of good stuff. It's a fine starting point, but corroborate his comments.
Savoy:
Director Ross was aware of the "JS" nonsense and "JRS" was used on the new half because of the publicity. The rest - 1933 DE and 1964 Franklins - is BS.
PS: the Franklin story is a good example - parts are just fine and parts are wrong and parts are rumor. The collector is faced with a dilemma: "How do I know what is good and what is not?"
My suggestion is to skip Breen's background bits and anything with the phrase "it is said that" (or similar), but keep the detailed variety for cross reference to more modern sources. >>
I wonder is some future edition will say "It is said that the US Government was wanting to eliminate the motto from future coinage so it left the motto off the 2007-2008 dollars only to retore it in 2009"?
IMO, as long as a story is paraphrased with "it is said that" or " some say" or "rumor has it", then the story or text following the phrase should be accepted as such. A rumor, story or inuendo.
After all, some of this stuff is what makes numismatics interesting.
The name is LEE!
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I had thought the date looked weird, like it was doubled toward the bottom, and lo and behold, here it is in the book;
Breen 1909
1852 Doubled date Rare.
Newcomb 7, earliest state. Date logotypefirst entered low and to the l. of final position , then corrected. Later states, with most of the extra outlines gone, will price as preceeding.
<< <i>In my opinion, the best commentary on the subject was posted by JK. >>
JK's post on this subject is terrific...well worth the read.
Still, for what it's worth, I own a copy of the Encyclopedia and I use it frequently as a reference tool. But if I'm researching a coin that I'm considering purchasing, I check several references including auction catalogs and online archives, price guides and anything else I can get my hands on.
Any of these could have errors. Without access to original, primary source documents, you can never fully trust what you read to be true. That's just the way it is.
Breen's Encyclopedia is simply another tool in the toolbox.
Ambro51 - enjoy the book, but handle it carefully. My copy developed a common problem where the pages separate from the spine. Of course, the book is still usable, but not pretty.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I know of no-one surpassing Breen's numismatic scholarship, before or since Walter passed away.
in the late 1940s about Stalin’s initials on the dime. Similar rumors, though not as strong,
were heard about the half dollar as well.>>
I was pointing out that it seemed to me that Breen believed the initials on the half were JS like the dime instead of JRS. The fact that the Treasury added the R, I think would be more worthy of mentioning rather than repeating the JS story. I believe that R was added after Sinnock's death.
Breen also mentioned the JS story in the Roosevelt dime section.
Garrow
"I too have that same pack rat memory, which sometimes causes delays in locating sources. Too many of the sources proved to be crammed full of errors, which no teenager could have spotted them. God, how much we all have to unlearn! I wish to God I was about 16 and growing up now, or at worst about 26, and without the orphanage history."
Breen has numbers for coins that I really believe do not exist.
In my own specialty there are Breen numbers for 9 phamtoms. Breen numbers 4379, 4383, 4387, 4391, 4395, 4399, 4403, 4409 and 4414.
These are for the 1956- D thru 1964- D "Type B" reverse quarters. I have learned never to say "never", but I don't believe they exist.
(The Cherrypickers' Guide considers them a real possibilty though.)
There were enthusiastic specialists looking for them in the days of yore when silver circulated freely and they couldn't find them then nor since.
Incidently Breen 4427, 4431, 4435 and 4439 (1969-D thru 1972-D "Type B" do exist, although there the Cherrypicker's Guide is doubtful.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5