?? on Dalton + Hammer vs. Spink + others

1960NYGiants · May 16, 2010 2:40AM

I've been looking to add the D+H catalogue to my Library. While perusing listings today I came across a Spinks catalogue for 17th century tokens of the British Isles and JC Bells volume on early 19th century issues.

My questions for the British token collectors:

1. How do all these catalogues compare or contrast to each other? (i.e. is one better than the other for what they cover?)
2. Does D+H cover the issues in Spink and/or Bell?
3. Would you include a copy of each in your library?
4. Are there other authors out there such as Withers that should be added to the list?

Thanks in advance for your input.

RobP · May 16, 2010 3:21AM

Gut feeling is that you should get all references you can lay your hands on and only after you have checked them thoroughly for any varieties not noted elsewhere should you consider rationalising the numbers. Doing this also highlights mistakes where two apparently different items are in fact one and the same. This stops you reinventing the wheel.

farthing · May 16, 2010 5:22AM

I'm not sure what the standard reference for 17th Century English tokens is. The Withers site uses Trade Tokens Issued in the Seventeenth Century by G. C. Williamson for their references along with the Sylloge of Coins from the British Isles (SCB) for the Norweb collection of 17th Century tokens.

There are a number of books that pertain to 17th C. tokens from specific counties or by specific type (tavern tokens, etc.) The only reference I have for 17th Century tokens is the John Yonge Akerman book Tradesmen's Tokens, Current in London and it's Vicinity Between the Years 1648 and 1672. I only bought the book because it was selling cheap on eBay as I do not currently collect 17th Century tokens.

The Dalton and Hamer book is THE reference book to have on Conder tokens. R. C. Bell wrote several books covering these same tokens with more background information included. They are interesting reads that can help fill in the story behind the individual tokens. The D&H book also includes some 19th century leaden tokens in the back.

For 19th Century copper tokens the reference book for years was by W. J. Davies called The Nineteenth Century Token Coinage of Great Britain Ireland, The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. The Withers book British Copper Tokens 1811-1820 seems to be slowly replacing Davies. R. C. Bell wrote a book on Unofficial Farthing tokens and J. Whitmore wrote a supplement to the Bell book. Bell also wrote Copper Commercial Coins 1811-1819 on these tokens.

For 19th Century silver tokens you have the choice of the Dalton book The Silver Token Coinage 1811-1813 or the A. W. Waters book Notes on the Silver Tokens of the Nineteenth Century

I do not have any of the above 19th Century token books.

Edit: I assume that the Bell books on 19th century unofficial tokens and copper commercial coins are intended to give the reader more background information on the tokens instead of just a dry read of the obverse/reverse devices and legends.

farthing · May 16, 2010 5:35AM

I've also heard that the John Whitmore book The Token Collectors Companion book is a very good reference - it covers 17-19th century tokens. It is also pricey, but is on my list of books to buy (as is the Withers book).

Daltonista · May 18, 2010 7:24AM

I have (or have had) most of the books mentioned in this thread, and I would have to say that the ones I've found most useful have
been D&H for Conders; Withers first, and then Davis, for the early 19th century coppers; and Dalton for the 1811-20 silver tokens.

Schwer's and Seaby's token books are helpful as stock books, mainly, the kind of thing you can carry to shows to help you avoid
buying duplicates and to help you keep track of what needs upgrading. Schwer covers Conders only, while Seaby ranges from
the 17th-century material right through Davis and Evasion coppers. Neither is complete nor exhaustive, but as I said they make
handy stock lists of you don't mind marking up your books.

For Dalton collectors (my specialty), these two books are great background as well: "Tokens of Those Trying Times" by James
O'Donald Mays, and "The Mystery of Henry Morgan" by Andrew Wager, who sold me a nice Augustus Cove piece last year...the
plate coin in Withers, in fact (cf. p. 239).

Whitmore is great for unofficial farthings and 19th-century (looks like mainly Victorian-era) inn tokens, and he does provide some
interesting records of prices realized at auction for Conders, but aside from that the coverage for pre-Conders is chiefly to enable
you to identify what you've got.

Also helpful for more background on the whole era is Whiting's "British Trade Tokens: A Social and Economic History," but that's not
at all like a "catalog" in any sense of the word as we numismatists/exonumists understand it...more like what the subtitle implies,
in lots of prose.

We should all bear in mind that many earlier (pre-WWII) works on tokens are available in their entirety online at one or both of
these two web sites: Internet Archive and Digital Book Index.
That includes D&H, I believe, as well as Davis and Dalton, and basically any book that has entered the public domain thanks to the
expiration of its copyright. I'd recommend checking those sites for William Boyne and J. Williamson (separately) for those 17th-century
tokens. The modern bible for them is Michael Dickinson's 1986 work, reprinted by Spink in 2004.

Now for some news: Bill McKivor, the Copper Man, announced with his latest list that Paul and
Bente Withers expect to have their new catalog ready to ship late this year, adding 17th- and 18th-century tokens to their coverage in
addition to Dalton silver. Bill's takign advance orders with a "projected" price of about $75, so check it out. Also, his own book list is
pretty good for anyone who's building a tokens library, and of course don't forget Allan & Marnie Davisson.

Best to all ~
Tom

farthing · May 18, 2010 11:12AM

I've just started reading the Whiting book Trade Tokens: A Social and Economic History. He states that he wrote the book from a historian point of view in order to place tokens in their historic and economic context.

Another great book to read is Good Money: Brimingham Button Makers, the Royal Mint, and the Beginnings of Modern Coinage, 1775-1821 by George Selgin, published in 2008. George is a professor of Economics and the book is a very well written story of the history and economic pressures that led to the Conder tokens.

?? on Dalton + Hammer vs. Spink + others

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