Does this 8R Pillar Dollar look authentic?

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 7:09AM

Bought this at a coin show today, but I know there are a lot of fakes. I am not experiences enough with them to know what to look for. The weight is 27.0 grams.
High Res:
OBVERSE
REVERSE

RYK · May 1, 2010 7:46AM

I have no authentication experience, but to my eyeball, it looks good to me.

tydye · May 1, 2010 7:51AM

Not an expert on these but it looks good to me

mbogoman · May 1, 2010 8:26AM

It looks good, but there are some good fakes. Let's see some edge shots - the floral pattern on the edge is a good diagnostic and hard to duplicate. For pre-1763 Pillars, the floral pattern should reverse on the coin.

LanLord · May 1, 2010 8:27AM

In general I like the looks of it. BUT, something about the lettering and numbers disturbs me.

I'm as far from an expert in these as one could get, but the flattened letters/numbers with sharp detail seem off to me.

mumu · May 1, 2010 9:02AM

<< In general I like the looks of it. BUT, something about the lettering and numbers disturbs me.

I'm as far from an expert in these as one could get, but the flattened letters/numbers with sharp detail seem off to me. >>

I am far from having a clue but first thought I had was that the numbers look cartoonish.

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 9:04AM

Here is the edge:

mumu · May 1, 2010 9:43AM

BTW if the coin is real, it is awesome and I would love one of those.

PerryHall · May 1, 2010 10:04AM

Looks real to me. Nice looking coin.

mbogoman · May 1, 2010 10:07AM

That looks like a real edge to me. Does the pattern reverse itself somewhere along the edge?

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 10:31AM

<< That looks like a real edge to me. Does the pattern reverse itself somewhere along the edge? >>

No it does not. Is that a for sure diagnostic? When you say reverse itself, do you mean the leaf is supposed to turn upside down? Like {{{{{}}}}}?

The coin show ends tommorow and if its fake, I would like to take it back before he leaves town!

TexasNationals · May 1, 2010 10:41AM

MO looks wrong

ambro51 · May 1, 2010 10:46AM

It sure looks like the 1737 I just got yesterday. Edge is the same too. They are pretty neat coins.

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 10:47AM

<< It sure looks like the 1737 I just got yesterday. Edge is the same too. They are pretty neat coins. >>

Beautiful coins. I guess I am going to have to send it off and hope if its fake, the dealer will be a stand up guy. Anyone ever heard of Weiss Collectable Sales in Las Vegas?

Bobby

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 10:49AM

<< It sure looks like the 1737 I just got yesterday. Edge is the same too. They are pretty neat coins. >>

Do the tulips on the edge of yours change directions?

ambro51 · May 1, 2010 10:50AM

no they all go the same the whole way round

dizzlecc · May 1, 2010 2:04PM

I'm not a qualified expert or anything. But the striking on the coin concerns me.

1. The examples I have seen had more denticles. This example only has a few on one side.

2. The striking looks to be really soft in places around the edge. Most that I have seen have soft strikes in the center and the letters are clear.

3. The placement of the lettering is off. Specifically the last P in phillip.

Compare the images to the archives from Heritage.com.

Depending on what you paid for the coin. I would return it.

sinin1 · May 1, 2010 2:29PM

I suggest the World and ANcient coin forum - as there are a couple collectors over there very knowledgable on these

they may want an accuate weight

a couple comparable weights from Teletrade
first an ANACS cleaned corroded XF details

and a PCGS MS62

yours looks very nice but the uneveness of surface level (fields) and letter chunks missing has me scratching head

Alltheabove76 · May 1, 2010 2:39PM

The dealer also claimed this was a shipwreck coin.

Raybo · May 1, 2010 2:59PM

<< I'm not a qualified expert or anything. But the striking on the coin concerns me.

1. The examples I have seen had more denticles. This example only has a few on one side.

2. The striking looks to be really soft in places around the edge. Most that I have seen have soft strikes in the center and the letters are clear.

3. The placement of the lettering is off. Specifically the last P in phillip.

Compare the images to the archives from Heritage.com.

Depending on what you paid for the coin. I would return it. >>

Yourself and TN have to stop all this nonsense!
The coin is authentic IMHO, stop the Chicken Little crud!

savoyspecial · May 1, 2010 11:41PM

i believe it to be genuine (with planchet irregularities)

pruebas · May 1, 2010 11:57PM

BTW, the Weiss' are good people. And not only because they used to live in NJ.

jmski52 · May 2, 2010 12:25AM

Anyone ever heard of Weiss Collectable Sales in Las Vegas?

I bought a couple of nice coins from them that I really enjoy. I'm pretty sure that they are legit, and knowledgeable as well.

Alltheabove76 · May 2, 2010 2:03AM

<< Anyone ever heard of Weiss Collectable Sales in Las Vegas?

I bought a couple of nice coins from them that I really enjoy. I'm pretty sure that they are legit, and knowledgeable as well. >>

Good enough for me. Thanks everyone.

dorancoins · May 2, 2010 11:07AM

<< BTW, the Weiss' are good people. And not only because they used to live in NJ.

>>

I will concur with you - when it comes to older "darkside" coins, they are who I refer people to.

Shamika · May 2, 2010 11:16AM

<< The dealer also claimed this was a shipwreck coin. >>

Looks almost too good to be a shipwreck coin.

Alltheabove76 · May 6, 2010 4:51AM

Just got the grade from ANACS. Not Genunine-Struck Copy. Trying to reach Mr. Weiss now. He seemed very knowledgable, I am surprised this made it by him.

pmac · May 6, 2010 5:22AM

I found this to be a very interesting thread. Like most here, I thought is was the real deal. Lanlord mentioned that the lettering was off or something, good eyes. A little embarrassing for Raybo though.

WoodenJefferson · May 6, 2010 5:35AM

<< Just got the grade from ANACS. Not Genunine-Struck Copy. Trying to reach Mr. Weiss now. He seemed very knowledgable, I am surprised this made it by him. >>

I wanted to post to this thread so bad I could taste it, but I let a sleeping dog alone....glad you got around to finding out the truth. I along with another poster felt the mint mark O above the M did not seem appropriate, but "shipwreck" artifacts that have gone through electrolysis to remove concretions and sulfides have a tendency to change in appearance.

Valuable lesson here...even the best can be fooled with accurate reproductions.

Thanks for posting.

ambro51 · May 6, 2010 5:42AM

photo comparison. mine on left OP coin on right

LoveMyLiberty · May 6, 2010 6:33AM

<< Just got the grade from ANACS. Not Genunine-Struck Copy. Trying to reach Mr. Weiss now. He seemed very knowledgable, I am surprised this made it by him. >>

Is there a way you could find out from ANACS what specifically tells them this one is a fake?
It would be very helpful.

gonzer · May 6, 2010 9:00AM

<< photo comparison. mine on left OP coin on right >>

Not even close.

bidask · May 6, 2010 9:11AM

The coin looks real....the toning is suspicious.....

dizzlecc · May 6, 2010 9:45AM

Thanks for sharing the grading results with us. You have definitely helped the overall community with a learning experience.

I hope the seller works things out with you.

ColonialCoinUnion · May 6, 2010 9:48AM

<< The coin looks real....the toning is suspicious..... >>

It looks real to me too.

ambro51 · May 6, 2010 9:59AM

I know nothing of these, but on the OP coin, the bottom serifs of the top letters on the reverse are ornamental. On my coin, they are flat. I have no clue what that means. An early poster said the O on top of the M mintmark looked weird and yes it is different. What else I see is parts of the OP coin are weakly struck up, like the lower left on the reverse. Mine is evenly struck all over. Id presume they had one huge mutha of a hand crank press with huge swinging counterweights....so I cant see weak strikes on part of the coin happening. More like the strike pressure of the die concentrates to the center, as on a small press.

Also, its weird, but look on my coin, at the 8 which is the denomination...and how the one side seems to really 'overlap' the other, but on the OP coin, it looks flat and lifeless....an early anti counterfeiting device? Still working?

but like I said, I dont know anything about these..

It proves how valuable the TPG grading can be and also the value of an express service.

mrpotatoheadd · May 6, 2010 10:13AM

<< It proves how valuable the TPG grading can be and also the value of an express service. >>

Just for the sake of argument, do you suppose that the TPGs ever make mistakes?

ambro51 · May 6, 2010 10:49AM

yes but hopefully you will be there to catch them.

coinkat · May 6, 2010 10:58AM

While the toning is an issue- My first call would be to ANACS

sinin1 · May 6, 2010 12:06PM

wow, that was quick

the 4 petal flowers look weak on yours in a couple spots

a bummer/hassle, but better knowing now than in 5-10 years

Alltheabove76 · May 7, 2010 9:14AM

I called ANACS and the grader who looked at the coin was not there, but Paul DeFelice said that in the notes it said "High Quality Chinese Fake". I spoke to Mr. Weiss who bitterly disuputes that it is not real, but is giving me my money back so thats the end of it. I am just out $49 for the express grading which to some degree I feel should be repaid by the Weiss's but, I will settle for my money back.

mrpotatoheadd · May 7, 2010 9:19AM

<< I am just out $49 for the express grading which to some degree I feel should be repaid by the Weiss's... >>

I think it is unfair to asssume that a seller should be expected to pay for the cost of authentication unless that was a part of the initial sales agreement.

Alltheabove76 · May 7, 2010 9:26AM

I am not pushing it. But, I am out $50 because someone sold me a fake so I still am left with no coin and a bill for $50. He loses nothing. In fact, he will have out for sale again as soon as he gets it back since he refuses to believe its fake.

mrpotatoheadd · May 7, 2010 9:34AM

<< I am not pushing it. But, I am out $50 because someone sold me a fake so I still am left with no coin and a bill for $50. >>

Sorry you're out money, but I still don't think it's the seller's responsibility to pay authentication fees if that wasn't agreed to at the time of purchase.

lkeigwin · May 7, 2010 9:50AM

<< 

<< I am not pushing it. But, I am out $50 because someone sold me a fake so I still am left with no coin and a bill for $50. >>

Sorry you're out money, but I still don't think it's the seller's responsibility to pay authentication fees if that wasn't agreed to at the time of purchase. >>

I agree.
Lance.

ambro51 · May 7, 2010 9:59AM

Always be wary of an old uncirculated coin.

A lot of wear is one of your best defenses against a counterfeits.

coinkat · May 7, 2010 10:35AM

I obviously have not seen the coin in hand- I wonder how ANACs determined it was a high quality Chinese fake?

Mark · May 7, 2010 10:36AM

I wonder a bit about the dealer. Yeah, he thinks it's real but now there is a contrary expert opinion that says fake. I think the ethical thing for the dealer to do is to submit the coin, say to PCGS, and get another expert opinion. I know that others in this thread have had good experiences with this dealer, and that counts for something. But also counting for something is the point that according to the op the dealer is apparently going to resell a coin that at least one expert says is fake.

Raybo · May 7, 2010 11:46AM

Didn't I tell you it was a (high quality) fake?

Darn it, I hate when I do that!

Ray

pakasmom · May 7, 2010 11:55AM

Unless Mr. Weiss said he intends to put it back up for sale, I think there's a difference between "refusing to believe it's a fake," and making that assumption.

mrpotatoheadd · May 7, 2010 12:16PM

<< In fact, he will have out for sale again as soon as he gets it back since he refuses to believe its fake. >>

Did he specifically tell you that he was going to put it up for sale as soon as he got it back? If not, do you suppose it's possible he might look into this and get other opinion(s) before attempting to resell the coin?

Does this 8R Pillar Dollar look authentic?

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