Dealer admits he alters cards.
RonBurgundy
Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
I went to a local show this weekend, one of the few shows that exist in the DFW area anymore. A dealer - who for the time being shall remain unnamed (I'm still debating whether to shine the light on him) - had several 1952 Topps cards in his inventory, including a '52 Nuxhall, the next to last card in the set. I looked at it, nicely centered card, corners were somewhat soft, but good eye appeal. PSA 6ish, with 2 small problems: 2 light wrinkles along the left center. I considered the price, then handed it back to the dealer's assistant, declining and mentioning the wrinkles.
The next day I returned to the show, bought some cards from the dealer and asked him what his best price would be on the Nuxhall. Here is what transpired:
Dealer: "It's not for sale now."
Me: "huh"?
Dealer: "It's not for sale today, it'll be back in the showcase tomorrow with a different price on it. And those wrinkles won't be there."
Me: "huh"?
Dealer: "Those wrinkles will be gone."
Now, I didn't go back to the show yesterday to see if he had altered the card, but this was the same guy who earlier in the day was bemoaning all of the "home labs" out there of other dealers in the alteration business. He went so far as to say one dealer had been able to buy a new house in Arizona with all of the altering he had been doing.
This "hobby" is really disgusting sometimes.
The next day I returned to the show, bought some cards from the dealer and asked him what his best price would be on the Nuxhall. Here is what transpired:
Dealer: "It's not for sale now."
Me: "huh"?
Dealer: "It's not for sale today, it'll be back in the showcase tomorrow with a different price on it. And those wrinkles won't be there."
Me: "huh"?
Dealer: "Those wrinkles will be gone."
Now, I didn't go back to the show yesterday to see if he had altered the card, but this was the same guy who earlier in the day was bemoaning all of the "home labs" out there of other dealers in the alteration business. He went so far as to say one dealer had been able to buy a new house in Arizona with all of the altering he had been doing.
This "hobby" is really disgusting sometimes.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
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Comments
I have a really jacked up 87 Topps Mike Greenwell. I wonder if that guy in AZ could fix it for me.
There is also a field of debate [and one that I'm not interested in rehashing here] that removing something that was not originally meant to be there is perhaps less offensive than physically altering a card. e.g. trimming and rebuilding corners are definitive no-nos. Soaking to remove glued paper on the back, or carefully erasing a pencil mark are oftentimes not viewed to be egregious "alterations" by certain people.
I have a hard time believing that someone could find enough raw material to buy a house out of such alterations. e.g. wrinkled cards that happen to have great centering and corners where, upon removal, get from the 5 range to the 8 range.
M
T222's PSA 1 or better
<< <i>Dealer: "Those wrinkles will be gone."
>>
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I know of a dealer that just built a new house in Arizona and moved out west- pretty sure I know who this is referring to. More fuel for the fire.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Steve
<< <i>I'm not sure how I feel about alteration. I certainly wouldn't want to buy an altered card. I'd also never sell one, since I don't see it as ethical... but I guess if it were a Picasso, we'd call it restoration. >>
Tough question is what is alteration? Removing wax stains from the front could be considered alteration by some.
The following would also be considered alteration but is it a bad thing to do?
Before:
And the end results looking like this:
Not spooning out creases or trying to make them cleaner/brighter just was curious if one could take a damaged card (in this case these were moisture/water damaged) and make them presentable again. I can honestly say I will not sell these but after I'm gone I have no idea what will occur with any of my collection.
Is it okay to do soak a card and get it back to it's original state or not?
Where does one line drawn (or is there even a line)?
Recoloring is clearly wrong.
Trimming is wrong.
Spooning out a crease/wrinkle is wrong.
Rebuilding corners is wrong.
As stated in other hobbies/collectibles it would be called restoration but in card collecting it's considered a really bad thing.
Maybe if an altered card came with a COA of sorts saying what has been done to it would be okay?
Makes for interesting thoughts as I'm sure alteration of cards is more widespread then what most people realize.
Jeff
Miscut Museum
My Mess
<< <i>A restored Picasso sells for less than an original one.
Steve >>
something I didn't know, they are just a tad out of my price range
<< <i>As long as it is disclosed that the card is restored there are no problems here. >>
perfect disclosure will never be available... so I disagree. But then again I disagree with selling reprints (not directed at you, directed at ebay). The first person lists on ebay as a reprint, the buyer pays too much and always relists on another account as found in Grandpa's attic.
always be a part of card collecting.
PCGS Currency:
"In the 1970s and early 1980s many uncirculated notes were pressed out flat as a board to remove the original paper wave and embossing that, at the time, was considered a “defect.” Today, while the proponents of paper originality and embossing seem to be in the majority, this may not always be the case."
"To place too much blame or detraction upon those notes that are truly beautiful and highly collectible, yet are not wholly original, would be a disservice. Many estimates of the numbers of large size type notes that have been restored in some fashion or another run so high that the supply of truly original notes might be so low as to preclude their collectability."
..................................................
Disclosure of fixes is reasonable to expect, but usually not rendered.
Worse, the fixes are so good that they often end up in TPG-slabs that
make the issues moot. (Until that spooned-out wrinkle on your 7 or 8
reappears.)
Nothing wrong with selling repaired rarities; just DISCLOSE the fixes
to buyers and don't try to slide them by the TPGs.
............................................
Barf:
You need to use heavier weights/clamps and better blotter tablets when
drying those wet cards.
Press
Steve
<< <i>Barf:
You need to use heavier weights/clamps and better blotter tablets when
drying those wet cards.
Press >>
I don't think it was a weight issue as I used a very heavy object but as I had read an article online about soaking I was curious to see what would happen and my curiosity has been satisfied.
Jeff
Miscut Museum
My Mess
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Why would this thread go poof? There is nothing about PSA here, it's about unscrupulous dealers who ruin the hobby..........something that PSA acts as a guard against. >>
You should out the unscrupulous dealer so none of us will get ripped off.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why would this thread go poof? There is nothing about PSA here, it's about unscrupulous dealers who ruin the hobby..........something that PSA acts as a guard against. >>
You should out the unscrupulous dealer so none of us will get ripped off. >>
LOL you would be better off listing the good guys, and it wouldn't take nearly as long
POOF! happens
I don't condone the alteraction of cards (trimming, recoloring, rebuilding), but if you can flatten out a surface wrinkle, it's not much different than scraping off wax which most collectors believe to be acceptable action.