Plus Secure submissions back. Ouch! Lessons learned...
dpoole
Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
Word of caution: I got pulverized. Only 4 pluses out of the 39 MS Washingtons I cherry-picked from my #1 registry set, and none at all for the 12 best 3CN proofs from that #1 set.
Lesson: they're not plusing extraordinary coins. They are really plusing only the ones that are technically at the upper end of their grade, and their heads are not turned for this purpose by great eye appeal.
I wouldn't submit any pop 1, for example, or something that you think just got over the bar to the next level. Submit only the ones you think had a strong chance for an upgrade, and never quite made it. The plus is your consolation prize.
Lesson: they're not plusing extraordinary coins. They are really plusing only the ones that are technically at the upper end of their grade, and their heads are not turned for this purpose by great eye appeal.
I wouldn't submit any pop 1, for example, or something that you think just got over the bar to the next level. Submit only the ones you think had a strong chance for an upgrade, and never quite made it. The plus is your consolation prize.
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I sent three coins for Secure Plus, mostly out of curiosity. I doubt that I will make a significant gain in value, even if they do Plus. PCGS received the coins today.
Here they are:
1. 1857-D G$1 PCGS MS-62 ex-Eliasberg. Doug has written for about ten years that it is the finest coin for the issue. It has been in and out of NGC and PCGS holders at the 62 level over the past decade. It is tied for a few others at PCGS, but if it gets the Plus, it could separate it from the pack.
2. 1799 $5 PCGS AU-55. I showed this coin around in Baltimore, and it was probably the favorite in the box. Even as a 58, there is very little price upside because of the price/grade compression in early gold.
3. 1841-C $5 PCGS AU-55 ex-Norweb. I sent this one in for the freebie (and True View, while it's there). This coin was the subject of a thread a few years ago. Doug tried a cut bid at ANR to buy it, they would not let him, stopped, and I ended up buying it from Heritage for significantly more. In the auction, it was in an OGH at 53, I bought it (without the pedigree on the slab) in an NGC 58 holder, and down crossed it to 55 to get it in to the PCGS holder. It is a wonderfully original, high-end coin. Even at 58, there is little financial upside.
There you have it!
Enlighten us visually which coins PCGS are awarding the pluses for.
Congrats on getting some at least.
Since none of the 3CN proofs plussed, I have nothing to learn very specific about that series as a result of the exercise.
1934 Heavy Motto MS67:
1942 MS67:
1943-D MS67:
1950 MS67:
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
WS
Laura was right. Collectors who cherry picked their coins over the years are in for a huge shock.
I think I'll wait till hell freezes over to submit to SP.
<< <i>nice coins will sell with or without a plus >>
Yup. It's just that the coins without the plus won't sell for as much.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
ourselves, as to what coins will make the +.
Camelot
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
RYK, on your freebie, cant be worth over 10k you know
<< <i>Do not try and make excuses for PCGS. You must have a gorgeous #1 set. By not + a single coin they have destroyed the concept that #1 sets are the best. Last I heard, eye appeal counted.
Laura was right. Collectors who cherry picked their coins over the years are in for a huge shock.
I think I'll wait till hell freezes over to submit to SP. >>
I don't think they have "destroyed the concept". If someone has a #1 with WITH ACCURATELY GRADED coins, then that is what they are. If they aren't .7, .8, .9, but are nice where they are, then they aren't a plus but can still be the top grade that they are.
People seem to think that if they have a pretty coin, or a top pop, that it should automatically be +ed by PCGS. I would really hate it if they used it that way. My understanding is that it is supposed to be ONLY for those that are HIGH end for the TECHNICAL grade. I would have no problem with it being left at that.
And, I read Laura's rant before she pulled it down. I think she misunderstood how SP is supposed to work and assumed the same thing you did....that a top pop should be a plus.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
To me, PCGS is now saying yeah we overgraded many top pop coins. This is crazy.
Bochi -- Eye appeal and high end for the technical grade are both required for the plus, according to Don Willis.
Don Willis wrote: "We wanted to identify coins that had above average or better eye appeal and also all the characteristics of an extremely highend coin for the grade. That's what + is all about." Link.
<< <i>People seem to think that if they have a pretty coin, or a top pop, that it should automatically be +ed by PCGS. I would really hate it if they used it that way. My understanding is that it is supposed to be ONLY for those that are HIGH end for the TECHNICAL grade.
Bochi -- Eye appeal and high end for the technical grade are both required for the plus, according to Don Willis.
Don Willis wrote: "We wanted to identify coins that had above average or better eye appeal and also all the characteristics of an extremely highend coin for the grade. That's what + is all about."
Link. >>
Agreed, but not the overriding piece, right? The way I am hearing people talk, they think eye appeal should make it a + regardless...like the NGC *
That's my point.
A top pop is NOT automatically a +
A spectacularly toned/super flashy white, PROPERLY graded coin is not automatically a +
True?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
+ = high technical grade for the grade level it holds + eye appeal
* = eye appeal/one sided cameo/highend for grade....
MAJOR MAJOR difference. Technical grade is most important factor for PCGS +
J
Glad to read this!....otherwise, what's the point, right?
<< <i>So this PLUS thing will put a serious kabash on the CAC bean ? >>
No - to me, it seems to fit BETWEEN a green bean, which indicates solid for the assigned grade, and the gold bean, which indicates the coin is under graded....the plus I think is supposed to indicate it just barely misses the next grade up.
As for the OP's results, maybe submitting MS67's and hoping for pluses was being a bit optimistic?
Has anyone heard of any coins being sent in for regrade under the Secure Plus to be actually upgraded, not plused?
<< <i>
<< <i>So this PLUS thing will put a serious kabash on the CAC bean ? >>
No - to me, it seems to fit BETWEEN a green bean, which indicates solid for the assigned grade, and the gold bean, which indicates the coin is under graded....the plus I think is supposed to indicate it just barely misses the next grade up.
As for the OP's results, maybe submitting MS67's and hoping for pluses was being a bit optimistic? >>
I think this is right.
Green CAC means solid for and incontestably worthy of the grade. PCGS' Plus means at the top of the technical grade, which I'm thinking is equivalent to the gold CAC bean.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Thanks for sharing the lesson you learned.
<< <i>The plus sign to me has just become PCGS way of limiting liability in upgrading a coin.
Has anyone heard of any coins being sent in for regrade under the Secure Plus to be actually upgraded, not plused? >>
Yep....a board member posted one the other day (if I recall/find the thread, I will come back and link it).
Went from a PCGS AU to a PCGS MS61, if I recall.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sorry about the cost of the lesson though...
PCGS is smart to be selective. To be otherwise just lowers the value of non-plus coins. This is supposed to be about adding market value, not the other way around. The worst scenario is lots of pluses and fire sale pricing of shield coins without the plus. That will kill the program.
I roamed the SC show yesterday and today and didn't see a single plus. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. I heard lots of stories from disappointed dealers, though.
Lance.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Basically PCGS is doing what they said they would. Coins grading MS67.7 to MS67.9 are very scarce indeed. Most of the coins that made that range were tried over and over again for upgrades over the past 10-12 years. If "extraordinary" coins implies high end, nice eye appeal, well struck, etc...then they should plus. A MS67.6 coin that is monstrous except for one hit too many or one area of strike weakness is not going to plus. Yes, you may want that coin because it is esthetically superior to ALL others graded MS67.7 or higher ...but those coins will plus and the more valuable MS67.6 will not. That's the way it is.
I find it interesting that it took 4 tries to get one of these Wash quarters into a MS67 holder in the first place (ie it graded 66 or less 3 of the 4 times it was submitted). Such is the fleeting nature and inconsistencies in grading. Yet today such a coin gets a plus. It seems to me the plus coin is just another way of saying the coin could be an upgrade on the "right" day....but that day may not ever actually ever come.
A CAC green bean does not mean a coin is not a great upgrade candidate or is always inferior to a + coin. That green bean can mean a MS67 coin is technically as high as MS68.3! (they would gold bean it makes a MS68.4 in their opinion). In those cases I'd much rather have the coin with the green bean than one with just a +.
roadrunner
Green CAC means solid for and incontestably worthy of the grade. PCGS' Plus means at the top of the technical grade, which I'm thinking is equivalent to the gold CAC bean>
But isn't a gold bean an indication that in CAC's opinion that the coin should be in a higher graded slab?
Isn't PCGS saying that a Secure Plus coin is at the highest range of the current grade AND did not quite make the cut to the next grade? So therefore by default a gold bean and a Secure Plus are very different?
I think gold beans are only given to .2% of all coins submitted. Source below. I asked JA about gold stickers once and he almost sounded like he wish it didn't exist and he did state that they were downplaying it as not to delute the importance of the green sticker program. Even the CAC site downplays gold stickers as there is virtually no information on them.
Isn't a green bean simply solid for the graded holder it's currently in?
Last published census of CAC coins
Coins Submitted: 144,137
Green stickers issued: 68,034
Gold stickers issued: 296
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Aren't #1 coins high end and pretty? If no coins are + in a #1 set, then set rankings for the past 20 years have been meaningless.
To me, PCGS is now saying yeah we overgraded many top pop coins. This is crazy. >>
Ugh. What is so confusing about this?
Alright. Say, for example, someone has a #1 set and every coin in that set is graded MS68. They may be the only ones ever graded higher than MS67, which makes it easily the #1 set. But, technically, each and every coin may have just barely made 68. They will not get a + unless they are technically MS68.7, .8 or .9.
That does not mean they were overgraded. They are all still 68s, just not the top end of 68, and they are still the best ever graded.
Does that help clear things up?
Note: If I'm wrong on my take on this, please help. But that's how I see it.
My coins are all going to CAC this week. At least they are an objective third party. PCGS now trying to say what coins are + from whats been graded, is like throwing a needle in the a haystack.
I do not want to hear #1 sets are not #1 quality. That to me is a slap in the face that I was defruaded for so long. They should have graded right before. Call me old fashioned.
<< <i>It's good to be on the Darkside!
...from my perspective, it's just plain good to be.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Now, I think I know the sound of a "BIG ONE" when it backfires.
Thanks to this thread......all plans to "Go A Plus huntin'............. have been cancelled.
<< <i>How much did your submission cost and how much added value do your plused coins now have? >>
Submission cost was $65 per.
Added value? Too early to tell. The market gods haven't digested them yet.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>I dunno, what ever happened to an MS67 or 68 being a monster coin in the first place? This pinpoint grading still sounds to me like PCGS knows it screwed up for the past 20 years and is now trying to sweep it under the rug.
My coins are all going to CAC this week. At least they are an objective third party. PCGS now trying to say what coins are + from whats been graded, is like throwing a needle in the a haystack.
I do not want to hear #1 sets are not #1 quality. That to me is a slap in the face that I was defruaded for so long. They should have graded right before. Call me old fashioned. >>
You obviously still don't get it and probably never will. What I am amazed at is that you agree with the idea of CAC being ok to spend your money on as being solid for the grade but not with the idea of a PCGS + being high end for the grade. If you call yourself "old fashioned", you'll appreciate your coins as coins and not as needing some qualifier that comes on plastic or a sticker in order for them to be worthy.
....and in the end everything is still subjective.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>this thread and all the other "dissappointments" from using this regrade service seem to reinforce one thing in my mind-----ownership tends to add one point. >>
I'm not sure that ownership is all of the problem. It appears from the threads I am reading that it is assumed that the top-graded coins must automatically receive a plus. But the plus is only for the very top end of the grade. A solid 68 is a 68 even if it is the finest known, not a 68+.
<< <i>this thread and all the other "dissappointments" from using this regrade service seem to reinforce one thing in my mind-----ownership tends to add one point.
I'm not sure that ownership is all of the problem. It appears from the threads I am reading that it is assumed that the top-graded coins must automatically receive a plus. But the plus is only for the very top end of the grade. A solid 68 is a 68 even if it is the finest known, not a 68+. >>
I believe both keets and tmot99 have hit on important issues with respect to the experience some have had with this new feature.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Intersting that the 50-p got the plus sign since it took me four submissions to get in to a 67 holder. >>
To me, this is by far the most enlightening factoid that can be gleaned from this thread.
The Emperor and his new clothes.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
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