When does a die crack indicate a variety?
RWB
Posts: 8,082 ✭
For Morgan and Peace dollar VAM collectors, a die crack has to be wide enough to produce a raised blob of metal on the coin, at which point it is called a die break. Die breaks can be VAM varieties, but die cracks cannot.
Specialists in some other denominations seem to permit varieties based on cracks, not necessarily breaks.
What do collectors of bust coinage, large cents or 3-cent nickels think?
Specialists in some other denominations seem to permit varieties based on cracks, not necessarily breaks.
What do collectors of bust coinage, large cents or 3-cent nickels think?
0
Comments
A Cud? A thicker die crack?
Bust collectors, like myself, actually study characteristics of different known dies as well as their die stages.
For Morgan and Peace collectors, it seems that it would be almost impossible to ID Die Marriages in their early die stages!
<< <i>What's the difference between a 'Die Crack' and 'Die Break'?
A Cud? A thicker die crack?
Best collectors, like myself, actually study characteristics of different known dies as well as their die stages.
For Morgan and Peace collectors, it seems that it would be almost impossible to ID Die Marriages in their early die stages! >>
A die crack is a line, usually irregular. It's only width is the width of the line. Think of it as a road through the middle of nowhere.
A die break has horizontal and vertical dimensions. Part of the die metal on one side or the other (or possibly both) of the line has fallen out of the die. Think of the classic definition of a very small town as "a wide spot in the road."
TD
Of course, cuds and other die deterioration anomalies can certainly be collectible. Look at the 1922 "No D" cents and the 1937-D three legged nickels. Are they die varieties, or just spectacularly failed dies?
TD
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>As a rule I have a hard time accepting a "variety" resulting from a die crack or a die break. I like my varieties to be things that happened while the dies were being made. They do not even have to be things that are "wrong," as witnessed by the hand-made dies of the 1793-1836 period >>
Me too! To get my attention as a "die variety" it must be from when the die was made.
i.e. lets say that there was an original pairing of Obverse an Reverse, the Reverse cracks but was not noticed and then it was paired with a different Obverse. This is the challenge of my current collection. It also helps to figure out the order of dies.
<< <i>I apologize if this is obvious to everyone else. But what does Barndog mean by the term, " die remarriage?" >>
Guess I should have read through all these before answering, see my previous post. Guess Barndog and myself think alike.
<< <i>For collectors of Shield 5c die varieties, a die crack does not make a variety, it is a die state that helps identify a true die variety. >>
Have you polled both collectors of Shield 5c die varieties on this issue to see if they agree?
http://www.shieldnickels.net
<< <i>Look at the 1922 "No D" cents and the 1937-D three legged nickels. Are they die varieties, or just spectacularly failed dies?
TD >>
I would say they are generally treated as die varieties, but that is an erroneous view. They are die stages (resulting from excessive polishing). A little extra polishing plus a lot of hype translates to sales dollars.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
With early large cents, a new variety is the
marriage of an obverse and reverse die pair
that have not been paired before.
For instance, you have an obverse die "1"
for the 1800 large cent and it is paired with
reverse "A", that makes a variety. In this case
it would be Sheldon 190.
Staying with the same example, reverse "A"
was retired, but obverse "1" still had some
life left, so it was paired with a new reverse,
"B". So the "1-B" match-up is a new variety,
Sheldon 191.
So die cracks, or lack of cracks, have nothing
to do with the variety, except that they can
make a variety easier to identify, since dies
tend not to crack in exactly the same ways.
What determines a variety is the die pair
used to strike the coin, and not cracks or
breaks.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i>
<< <i>What's the difference between a 'Die Crack' and 'Die Break'?
A Cud? A thicker die crack?
Best collectors, like myself, actually study characteristics of different known dies as well as their die stages.
For Morgan and Peace collectors, it seems that it would be almost impossible to ID Die Marriages in their early die stages! >>
A die crack is a line, usually irregular. It's only width is the width of the line. Think of it as a road through the middle of nowhere.
A die break has horizontal and vertical dimensions. Part of the die metal on one side or the other (or possibly both) of the line has fallen out of the die. Think of the classic definition of a very small town as "a wide spot in the road."
TD >>
Great explaination. A cud is an obsolete term for a die break. At one time, many collectors thought a die break was extra metal laying on the surface of the coin rather than part of the original planchet and that the extra metal looked like a cow's cud.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Die remarriages are misunderstood by many collectors
<< <i>Logan and McCloskey defined a die remarriage by stating "a die remarriage occurs if the same obverse-reverse die pair is reunited in the screw press after either of the dies was used to strike another die marriage." This is from page 40 of "Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837"
Die remarriages are misunderstood by many collectors >>
How is that different from a die trial separation?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Logan and McCloskey defined a die remarriage by stating "a die remarriage occurs if the same obverse-reverse die pair is reunited in the screw press after either of the dies was used to strike another die marriage." This is from page 40 of "Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837"
Die remarriages are misunderstood by many collectors >>
How is that different from a die trial separation?
define your term
<< <i>I consider a die crack or die break to be a die state rather than a variety but they can be used to identify the specific die that struck a particular coin. >>
Incorrect terminology, actually. "Die state" signifies the age of a die when it hits the coin as determined by the relative amount of WEAR on the die. A "Die Stage" notes specific markers that occur on a die due to breakage, polishing, clashes, or other specific events that changed the appearance of some part of the design on the die.
What you are referring to with the cracks and breaks would be "die stage" - not "die state".
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Logan and McCloskey defined a die remarriage by stating "a die remarriage occurs if the same obverse-reverse die pair is reunited in the screw press after either of the dies was used to strike another die marriage." This is from page 40 of "Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837"
Die remarriages are misunderstood by many collectors >>
How is that different from a die trial separation?
define your term >>
He yanketh thine chain.......
answered your question in a "pm"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Logan and McCloskey defined a die remarriage by stating "a die remarriage occurs if the same obverse-reverse die pair is reunited in the screw press after either of the dies was used to strike another die marriage." This is from page 40 of "Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837"
Die remarriages are misunderstood by many collectors >>
How is that different from a die trial separation?
define your term >>
He yanketh thine chain.......
Yup. Wouldn't be the first time one of my jokes fell flat on its face.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Thus far the consensus seems to be that cracks and breaks do not, of themselves, define a die variety in non VAM specialties. They are useful indicators of pairings of obverse and reverse dies. ?? >>
So do I collect varieties or die remarriages?
When some of these different items are visible on two different coins of the same date and mintmark, it indicates that they were struck using different dies and subsequently are different die varieties or die marriages (a die marriage is the result of a particular obverse and a particular reverse die coming together to create or strike a coin).
In the case of the coins produced prior to about 1840 (I know that some will disagree about this date, but I have my reasons for using it), many if not all of the individual peripheral items including the date, stars, and letters of both obverse and reverse legends, were punched into each working die by hand and therefore vary in distance from the rim of the coin and to each other. In this case, it is much easier to identify individual die marriages.
Many people use the term "die variety" interchangeably with "die marriage", however they are not quite the same animal. A good example of this can be found in all denominations, but shows up much more frequently in both the early copper series and the early silver series, as well as occasionally in the early gold series.
In the Capped Bust half series an example is found in 1834. There are several "varieties" to be found such as:
Large Date / Large Letters reverse (of which there are 3 die marriages)
Large Date / Small letters reverse (of which there are 4 die marriages)
Small Date / Small letters reverse (of which there are 13 die marriages)
as well as a few other minute varieties such as the following:
Child’s head (O-111)
Recut 4 (O-105)
Repunched 4 (O-106)
Repunched date (O-118)
The central motif also changes in 1834 with a different master die being used for the head of Liberty and the eagle on the reverse.
The definitions and usage of many numismatic terms are not used properly all the time, due to the lack of understanding their true meanings and definitions. The only way to correct this is through education, however even the educators differ in their perceived definitions. Old habit also hinders the proper use of terms and keeps new education from being effective.
In answer to the question posed by the OP…yes, no, sometimes.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
Die break is a more nebulous term, I prefer to use light die crack, advanced or heavy die crack, retained cud, and full cud. Here are some die cracks on 1795 O.110a that could be called a die break without a cud or internal blobbing, as the die definately did "break":
<< <i>Die break is a more nebulous term, I prefer to use light die crack, advanced or heavy die crack, retained cud, and full cud. Here are some die cracks on 1795 O.110a that could be called a die break without a cud or internal blobbing, as the die definately did "break":
Bill, is this not also a retained cud?
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
A retained cud is usually raised to some degree, in this case the broken piece is lower, but I guess it could be called a retained cud because there is "vertical displacement". I think I will call it a "broken cookie" die break, as others have called these on 1794-95 half dollars.
I see your point on "varieties" for pre-1840 coins, as there are Redbook varieties that can include many die marriages, and also die stages such as the Bearded Goddess and single leaf varieties. Yet reference books as Overton and Dannreuther refer to die marriages as varieties.
Exactly what I mean, as far as old habits and differing definitions. Overton continually refers to die marriages as die varieties. I believe that after 40 years that needs to change
I tend to agree about the definition of a cud, retained or otherwise, needing to include some sort of lateral movement to distinguish it from a completed die break or die crack, although many would define it in different terms.
Again a consensus needs to be reached and the terms clearly defined so they can be applied properly and all can understand what is being stated.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
<< <i>When it's a Speared Bison.
Sorry...not a die crack.
This is a die line or die scratch. It still reprents a die "variety" however.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
<< <i> Die breaks can be VAM varieties, but die cracks cannot. >>
I'm not sure that this is exactly true. I think that while that particular area of collecting is just as loosely structured as any other, I do believe that "the die is the die" concept over-rules breaks as well as cracks.
1889 vam-5a for instance is merely a late stage of vam-5. The 5a incorporates a small break on the reverse that the earlier stage does not. They are the same die variety, but simply different stages of that die variety.
As far as the detoured crux of this thread goes, I am both interested and amazed at how semantics and individual definitions over-ride any general consensus of what constitutes a crack, a break, a cud.
While cracks, breaks and cuds may be die specific, I don't think that they constitute a variety in any area of coin collecting, but are rather extremely useful identifiers of particular varieties as well as wear stages of those varieties.
I'm searching for a consistent way to utilize these critters - something that will not confuse new/inexperienced collectors, and will give them a meaningful basis for exploring other coin series.
<< <i>
<< <i>When it's a Speared Bison.
Sorry...not a die crack.
This is a die line or die scratch. It still reprents a die "variety" however.
QN >>
Here is a butt crack.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>I consider a die crack or die break to be a die state rather than a variety but they can be used to identify the specific die that struck a particular coin. >>
Incorrect terminology, actually. "Die state" signifies the age of a die when it hits the coin as determined by the relative amount of WEAR on the die. A "Die Stage" notes specific markers that occur on a die due to breakage, polishing, clashes, or other specific events that changed the appearance of some part of the design on the die.
What you are referring to with the cracks and breaks would be "die stage" - not "die state". >>
Nice to see someone else correctly making this distinction. This is a frequently misused term.
http://www.shieldnickels.net