If a submission is "in house", but the news of the "big one" was not yet released, would it be possible to get any of those coins into the new "Secure Plus" holder , if they haven't been graded as of yet ?
here is a question I received via PM. I have already answered this a couple times but here again -
I have a couple of questions. If I send my PCGS coins in to have them put into the new Secure Plus holder, can my coins be downgraded? And to get them into a Secure Plus holder do they need to be sent in for Regrade or can it be done through ReHolder? And last, does the certification # change once it is put into the secure plus holder? If so what if the coin has a TrueView. Thank you!
The rules for PCGS Secure Plus are no different than for regular grading. Coins sent in via Regrade are guaranteed not to go down. Coins sent in via Reholder are guaranteed not to go down. You can submit any PCGS holdered coin - either regular label or Secure Plus - to the other service via Regrade or Reholder under the exact same rules. (please reread that sentence.) The only service where you can receive a + grade is PCGS Secure Plus. Just like the regular service, when you submit a coin for regrade via Secure Plus you will receive a new certification number. If you already have a TrueView it will transfer to the new cert. #.
man this is getting difficult to keep track of. I am going to start ignoring questions which have already been answered. Please read the previous posts. I will go through and delete those messages which are not a question or an answer simply to make this easier to read (sorry tp some of you and thanks for the support).
JWMGT90 - yes you can add TrueView to a PCGS Secure Plus submission. THE OPTIONS AND RULES FOR PCGS SECURE PLUS ARE IDENTICAL TO REGULAR SUBMISSIONS.
ambro51 - this refers to not holdering a coin and simply printing the information on a certificate. We currently do this for some medals. I don't believe they are eligible for the Registry.
sinin1 - crossovers are not accepted in PCGS Secure Plus. You can crack it out and take your chances, or stick to buying PCGS coins. Same as always.
1Mike1 - you must have just watched Avatar. I don't believe the scanning is 3D. Certainly not in the way we represent the results.
Hussulo - we deliberately 'turned' coins in our testing. They were always recognized.
PQType - existing rules do not change. TrueView images will follow a coin that is submitted for regrade, i.e., they will be attached to the new certification number. Same as always if PCGS determines that a coin is AT or has some other problem while in the process of Regrading or Reholdering we will contact you with our guarantee program. We believe MS60 & 61 by definition do not have + coins.
mozin - we cannot do crossovers through Secure Plus because we need to take the coin out of the holder to scan it. That must happen before its graded not after. Therefore we cannot do crossovers. You can either cross them in the regular line or crack them out.
enzet - I've answered the MS60 & 61 question a couple times already. And yes this works with incused designs.
coinkat - this technology may have additional uses that will become apparent as we go forward. We are at the starting line and are trying to address the most important objectives first.
melvin289 - again a repeat answer but this is an important question. When coins are sent through Secure Plus we are able to create a record that contains a lot of information about that coin. The record is saved in our archieve. Whenever the coin comes back in we now have the ability to look up that record see the history of that coin. That information is very valuable and will assist us in grading. However that does not mean that the grade will NEVER change. Sure it could change and it will change if we decide that the coin was not given the correct grade previously. We are here to grade coins correctly. That's our number one priority. This new system is not intended to lock a coin's grade forever. It is intended to give us information - that's good, right? It will help us detect when a coin has been "improved" by some nefarious character - or not. It will also help us be consistent in our grading and ensure that every coin we grade is given the proper grade.
jessewvu - in our testing we deliberately scratched and marked up coins and the system still recognized them.
Longacre - forever is a long time. But I can tell you we've never thought of comparing images for grading. That would be a very cool AI application - but it won't happen in the forseeable future.
twoSides2aCoin - sorry we can't switch submissions in mid-stream. That would be an operational nightmare.
Neat application of computers to coins and I can see that it fits you well and PCGS well.
Are coins laser-scanned on only the obverse, or do they get scanned on reverse and/or rim, too? If only one side, what about those coins that have ambiguous obverse/reverse sides?
Neat application of computers to coins and I can see that it fits you well and PCGS well.
Are coins laser-scanned on only the obverse, or do they get scanned on reverse and/or rim, too? If only one side, what about those coins that have ambiguous obverse/reverse sides? >>
staircoins - we've done it both ways. we decided just to scan the obverse.
The service lines that are available for Secure Plus do not include patterns. Can patterns be placed in a Secure Plus holder? If so, do we have to use the Walk-Through service, or can Express service be used for patterns?
1) It seems to me this technology may also be used for die variety attributions. Would this be workable?
2) Are the deliberately marked up/doctored/whatnot coins going to be exhibited online or at shows to show what the different alterations look like?
3) Are the results this technology give you something that can be displayed like a topo map (see here for those who don't know what these are.) I want to know if analogizing the coins to these are apt.
<< <i>Will all coins (other than cross overs) be scanned even outside PCGS secure system. If I submit a coin express will it get scanned just like the PCGS secured coins? >>
Craig,
I got this question answered while I was in Fort Worth.
As I understand it, PCGS will just be scanning the coins submitted under the Secure submissions for now, to see what the traffic is and to assess the capacity of the system. But the goal definitely is to eventually scan all submissions into the database.
Dr. Pete, we have scanned all three sides. Now we are scanning the edge and obverse and matching 100%
MANOFCOINS - currently we are scanning Secure Plus submissions only. We realize that we should be checking every submission to see if it has been submitted through Secure Plus or possibly stolen. We will get there eventually.
mozin - why do the English drive on the wrong side of the road. That's the way we do it.
PLE - That is incorrect. Secure Plus submissions are based on service level, not coin type. You certainly can submit patterns at the Express or Walkthrough levels for regrading or submit them for reholder.
Aegis3 - I already answered the variety question - maybe someday. We have no plans to display our test coins. What we generate really isn't like a topo map.
AllCoinsRule - Your understanding of how regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatevery it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.
So the only way to get a cross over into secure plus is to send a coin in for cross over only with no minimum grade selected, get the coin back and then resubmit for secure plus? , assuming you don't go the crack out method.
"The PCGS Secure Plus process uses laser scanning to help detect coins that have been artificially enhanced since their last certification, combat "gradeflation" and excessive resubmissions of the same coins, and can also be used to help identify recovered stolen coins."*
How does PCGS define "artificially enhanced?" I can't find that term in the PCGS Library.
"Additionally, PCGS expert graders can now designate deserving, superior-quality coins as "Plus" within their respective grades, an important distinction when there are big differences in value between one grade point and the next."*
Is this a response to CAC? It seems as if it's the same philosophy. I know in the old days some of us did used to use a rather informal ABC system for denoting quality within the given grade.
*From: PCGS Announces PCGS Secure Plus™ Service for Increased Consumer Protection and Plus Grades for Added Value -March 25, 2010.
There is a B-School *teaching* moment here. Don & Crew have instigated a process marketing of this new product by fielding real-world questions from the actual/potential customer base.
Companies all over the world would ‘kill’ for an opportunity to get real-time customer feed-back when introducing a new product. I'll bet there are questions here that the PCGS crew never considered before the roll-out.
This thread is also creating a wonderful data base template for a future ‘PCGS Secure Plus F.A.Q.
kimber45ACP - you are correct. Only raw coins (uncertified) or coins already in PCGS holders (either regular or Secure Plus holders) may be submitted through the Secure Plus service.
kurtdog - I don't know if we have a definition somewhere of artificially enhanced, but it means just what is says. A couple examples would be: the application of foreign substances meant to alter and enhance the appearance of the coin or to hide certain marks or blemishes on the coin; and, the application of toning, i.e., color, through deliberate means such as exposure to heat and/or gases. What is not included in artifical enhancement would be light dipping or the development of natural toning over a period of time. edited to add: PCGS Secure Plus was developed without any other grading service in mind and that includes CAC.
Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface.
I think the PCGS Secure Plus with the coin scanning to recognize previously submitted coins and / or altered coins is a break through worthy of "The Big One" hype.
I can't wait to view some PLUS graded coins in-hand.
Hello sir. I just had one additional question - I apologize if it is a foolish one.
I believe it was stated previously that approximately 10-15% of coins are expected to receive the + Designation, but also more specifically that + would be given to coins graded .7 .8 and .9 for a given grade. Seemingly by the numbers, that would reflect 30% of the overall grading scale, or 30% of coins. Are there just much fewer coins that receive .7 .8 and .9 for some reason? Again I apologize if this is a dumb question - I just want to try to have as good of an idea as possible as to what a + represents.
<< <i>Hello sir. I just had one additional question - I apologize if it is a foolish one.
I believe it was stated previously that approximately 10-15% of coins are expected to receive the + Designation, but also more specifically that + would be given to coins graded .7 .8 and .9 for a given grade. Seemingly by the numbers, that would reflect 30% of the overall grading scale, or 30% of coins. Are there just much fewer coins that receive .7 .8 and .9 for some reason? Again I apologize if this is a dumb question - I just want to try to have as good of an idea as possible as to what a + represents. >>
I was doing the same math when I heard the announcement while watching the videos. I was guessing that maybe only half of the coins that are technically a .7 .8 or .9 grade have the positive eye appeal worthy of the + affixed to the grade... not sure if that's right though.
Don, First off, thank you. I think it goes without saying how much we all appreciate your leadership of PCGS, my forum return not withstanding.
I would respectfully like to address the First Strike Program, and specifically the pre-2005 MS Silver Eagle First Strikes. I certainly applaud the program as it has certainly inspired many collectors to invest in what are usually the best struck coins but also to buy sooner than later. I think most will agree that as a result they have seen an increase in the overall value/resale of these coins and continues to provide that value add aspect.
As one of the earliest and strongest supporters of the First Strike program, I as well as many others, would like to see PCGS open up existing MS Silver Eagle First Strike Registry sets to include ALL PCGS Graded pre-2005 Silver Eagle First Strikes. To the majority of Silver Eagle collectors, it has always been a puzzle why only post-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles were the only First Strike Silver Eagles permitted in the "Complete First Strike Silver Eagles" set when so many PCGS graded pre-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles exist.
I respectfully believe this would be a positive move for the First Strike program and appreciate the opportunity to express my suggestion. Again, great job and thank you so much.
Forgive me if this has been asked (I didn't see the answer yet). Will the plus be given to a coin that is in the top percentage of others in the catagory of designation, i.e. cameo, full steps, fbl, etc.?
"To the majority of Silver Eagle collectors, it has always been a puzzle why only post-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles were the only First Strike Silver Eagles permitted in the "Complete First Strike Silver Eagles" set when so many PCGS graded pre-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles exist."
It really wasn't a puzzle to me at all. I was in full agreement with DH's decision. It avoided coins which were being priced at thousands of dollars simply for a label becoming REQUIRED coins in the registry. Indeed, a number of those previously multi-thousand coins are now worth less than $100 (and some less than $50!) It was a fabulous decision by DH. Of course, this issue is off point so let's continue this discussion on another thread if you like - perhaps over on the registry forum.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>kurtdog - I don't know if we have a definition somewhere of artificially enhanced, but it means just what is says. A couple examples would be: the application of foreign substances meant to alter and enhance the appearance of the coin or to hide certain marks or blemishes on the coin; and, the application of toning, i.e., color, through deliberate means such as exposure to heat and/or gases. What is not included in artifical enhancement would be light dipping or the development of natural toning over a period of time. edited to add: PCGS Secure Plus was developed without any other grading service in mind and that includes CAC. >>
Don, thank you for your reply. I sincerely mean that. You must be one very busy President, these days, just making good on your offer to answer our questions in this thread. How's my credit around this joint, am I good for one more? If so, I'd like to know about these computers, and how they fit in. Just give me the kindergarten version of it. Let's take "artificial enhancement" and counterfeiting, for example. Would these computers be programmed to assist the graders in determining those? I'm still a little fuzzy, there. I've been trying to get the answers off these replies (I read the entire thread), but am unfortunately only the more confused for it.
OK. I have a financial question. I understand if you don't care to reply. A few years back, you bought Gemprint which does the same thing for diamonds. Could that not have been adapted to coins? Did you take a stake in CoinSecure or are they just a partner? Why didn't you buy them out? Do you have an exclusive agreement with them? Who owns the patents, CU or CoinSecure?
I think I know this answer , but please confirm for me.
If I have a 1921 ms66 peace dollar which has a "weight" in the PCGS Registry of 6 and that particular coin receives the +, making it MS66+, does that mean that the coin will now receive 3 points in the Registry ????, or would it only receive an actual half point no matter what weight a paticular coin carries ???
<< <i>dcarr wrote: What type of data does the laser scanning process collect ? Luminosity (reflectance) like a traditional digital picture, or a 3-D surface map of the coin's contours ? >>
<< <i>DonWillis wrote: dcarr - for obvious reasons there is only so much technical information we want to disclose. >>
Before I submit any coins for this service, I am going to want to know exactly what kind of data is being collected on my property, how it is being stored and used, for whose benefit, who will have access to it, and what any future uses of this data might be.
For example if it is high-resolution 3-D scans, then there will exist a library of such data on lots of coins, and it could at some point potentially be used to make very accurate replicas of particular coins.
<< <i>dcarr wrote: What type of data does the laser scanning process collect ? Luminosity (reflectance) like a traditional digital picture, or a 3-D surface map of the coin's contours ? >>
<< <i>DonWillis wrote: dcarr - for obvious reasons there is only so much technical information we want to disclose. >>
Before I submit any coins for this service, I am going to want to know exactly what kind of data is being collected on my property, how it is being stored and used, for whose benefit, who will have access to it, and what any future uses of this data might be.
For example if it is high-resolution 3-D scans, then there will exist a library of such data on lots of coins, and it could at some point potentially be used to make very accurate replicas of particular coins. >>
Considering the very short time frame for the scan, I doubt the stored info would be detailed enough to make an accurate replica - if such a technology were even realistic. And only the obverse is scanned.
Looking at the video from PCGS and the setup, I believe it is just a scan that takes data points to create a "fingerprint" of the coin and not an exact 3-d map per say and ran through some pattern recognition program to ID the coin. It is not necessary to take a 3-d map of the coin to ID it, but that is guess work on my part.
<< <i>Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface. >>
I have a hard time accepting that "too much acetone can damage the coin's luster". I just don't see how that is physically possible unless the coin had been doctored in the first place to artificially enhance the luster with some foreign substance.
I know you want to keep this thread related to Secure Plus, but if you could elaborate on the damage that can be caused by acetone, that would be great, as this is something entirely new to me, and others as well I would guess.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
<< <i>Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface. >>
I have a hard time accepting that "too much acetone can damage the coin's luster". I just don't see how that is physically possible unless the coin had been doctored in the first place to artificially enhance the luster with some foreign substance.
I know you want to keep this thread related to Secure Plus, but if you could elaborate on the damage that can be caused by acetone, that would be great, as this is something entirely new to me, and others as well I would guess. >>
Acetone can bring up a lot of junk, including verdigris, that otherwise wasn't visible. I have noticed that. As for any negative effect on luster, that'd be a hard one to nail down, I'd think, either way.
<< <i>Acetone ...any negative effect on luster, that'd be a hard one to nail down, I'd think, either way. >>
Not at all. Loss of luster, such as that caused by dipping in Jeweluster, is easily seen with a Scanning Electron Microscope. (please let Mr. Willis answer the questions)
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
CoinCollector - although the math says 30% should achieve the + designation that assumes that coin quality is linear. If in fact the quality of coins is more bell shaped within a grade then far fewer coins will achieve the +.
JL3Eleven - PCGS Secure Plus is based on service level, not coin type. As we have said, we are starting off with the higher service levels which address the more expensive coins. That's our starting point and we will work from there. If you are a PCGS Collector Club member watch for your next quarterly special.
stephunter - the + designation will be given based on being superior for the grade (not the variety).
kurtdog - PCGS Secure Plus is a big first step in aiding in the detection of altered coins. The more information we can provide to the graders, the better job they can do. The key is to recognize that what we have done is only the first step - a big one at that. There will be more.
Proof - the + counts as a half point on your grade. Then it's the usual math of weighting each coin and dividing by the total weight (see the Registry rules for a complete explaination).
dcarr - sorry but we are not sharing all our technical information.
bushmaster8 - lets stick to Secure Plus on this thread. I'll PM you.
Don, Can you please summarize this whole thread for me so i do not have to read it all... HAHA
On the real- secure Plus is a process that I can send my coin in and have it scanned, marked, and forever tagged for tracking- at the same time you will assess my coin to decide whether it is plus worthy or not? However, I do not have to send it in for the Secure part but I can send it in for the plus part? is this correct?
I could send you 250 coins and have PCGS assess them for "+" worthiness but not have them go through the Secure part of the process... is this correct?
If I send you coins to get graded and considering your are designating a plus grade why should I have to pay extra for you to grade the coin with a plus? I would assume that a plus is part of the grade so why should I have to pay more for you to accuratly grade my coins considering I am sending them to you to get graded in the first place ? I understand that this is all new but wouldnt it have made more sense to simply increase the cost of grading for all coins and include the secure plus with all submissions, wouldnt that have really done more to decrease the doctored coins on the market?
I understand that this is all new but wouldnt it have made more sense to simply increase the cost of grading for all coins and include the secure plus with all submissions, wouldnt that have really done more to decrease the doctored coins on the market? >>
Yes, but then I believe ngc would receive more submissions to try to avoid the "secure" part.
waterzooey & soty27 - + grades are only available through PCGS Secure Plus. You cannot get a + grade through a regular submission. Along with the possibility of getting a + grade your coins are scanned and registered when submitted through Secure Plus.
Thank you for the time and energy expended on our behalf regarding Secure Plus grading.
I only have one question [ all the others have been answered ]: if I submit a PCGS Pedigreed coin [ ie: Eliasberg ; Friend; Price ] to Secure Plus for regrade [ hoping for an advance in grade or a "+" ] will I be able to keep the Pedigree on the holder ?
Thank you in advance.
Mike Hayes
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
Comments
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I have a couple of questions. If I send my PCGS coins in to have them put into the new Secure Plus holder, can my coins be downgraded? And to get them into a Secure Plus holder do they need to be sent in for Regrade or can it be done through ReHolder? And last, does the certification # change once it is put into the secure plus holder? If so what if the coin has a TrueView. Thank you!
The rules for PCGS Secure Plus are no different than for regular grading. Coins sent in via Regrade are guaranteed not to go down. Coins sent in via Reholder are guaranteed not to go down. You can submit any PCGS holdered coin - either regular label or Secure Plus - to the other service via Regrade or Reholder under the exact same rules. (please reread that sentence.) The only service where you can receive a + grade is PCGS Secure Plus. Just like the regular service, when you submit a coin for regrade via Secure Plus you will receive a new certification number. If you already have a TrueView it will transfer to the new cert. #.
JWMGT90 - yes you can add TrueView to a PCGS Secure Plus submission. THE OPTIONS AND RULES FOR PCGS SECURE PLUS ARE IDENTICAL TO REGULAR SUBMISSIONS.
ambro51 - this refers to not holdering a coin and simply printing the information on a certificate. We currently do this for some medals. I don't believe they are eligible for the Registry.
sinin1 - crossovers are not accepted in PCGS Secure Plus. You can crack it out and take your chances, or stick to buying PCGS coins. Same as always.
1Mike1 - you must have just watched Avatar. I don't believe the scanning is 3D. Certainly not in the way we represent the results.
Hussulo - we deliberately 'turned' coins in our testing. They were always recognized.
PQType - existing rules do not change. TrueView images will follow a coin that is submitted for regrade, i.e., they will be attached to the new certification number. Same as always if PCGS determines that a coin is AT or has some other problem while in the process of Regrading or Reholdering we will contact you with our guarantee program. We believe MS60 & 61 by definition do not have + coins.
mozin - we cannot do crossovers through Secure Plus because we need to take the coin out of the holder to scan it. That must happen before its graded not after. Therefore we cannot do crossovers. You can either cross them in the regular line or crack them out.
coinkat - this technology may have additional uses that will become apparent as we go forward. We are at the starting line and are trying to address the most important objectives first.
melvin289 - again a repeat answer but this is an important question. When coins are sent through Secure Plus we are able to create a record that contains a lot of information about that coin. The record is saved in our archieve. Whenever the coin comes back in we now have the ability to look up that record see the history of that coin. That information is very valuable and will assist us in grading. However that does not mean that the grade will NEVER change. Sure it could change and it will change if we decide that the coin was not given the correct grade previously. We are here to grade coins correctly. That's our number one priority. This new system is not intended to lock a coin's grade forever. It is intended to give us information - that's good, right? It will help us detect when a coin has been "improved" by some nefarious character - or not. It will also help us be consistent in our grading and ensure that every coin we grade is given the proper grade.
jessewvu - in our testing we deliberately scratched and marked up coins and the system still recognized them.
Longacre - forever is a long time. But I can tell you we've never thought of comparing images for grading. That would be a very cool AI application - but it won't happen in the forseeable future.
twoSides2aCoin - sorry we can't switch submissions in mid-stream. That would be an operational nightmare.
Neat application of computers to coins and I can see that it fits you well and PCGS well.
Are coins laser-scanned on only the obverse, or do they get scanned on reverse and/or rim, too? If only one side, what about those coins that have ambiguous obverse/reverse sides?
I am just attempting to make suggestions in the form of questions to encourage all possible avenues for the technology that will benefit Collectors
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Hi Don,
Neat application of computers to coins and I can see that it fits you well and PCGS well.
Are coins laser-scanned on only the obverse, or do they get scanned on reverse and/or rim, too? If only one side, what about those coins that have ambiguous obverse/reverse sides? >>
staircoins - we've done it both ways. we decided just to scan the obverse.
The service lines that are available for Secure Plus do not include patterns. Can patterns be placed in a Secure Plus holder? If so, do we have to use the Walk-Through service, or can Express service be used for patterns?
1) It seems to me this technology may also be used for die variety attributions. Would this be workable?
2) Are the deliberately marked up/doctored/whatnot coins going to be exhibited online or at shows to show what the different alterations look like?
3) Are the results this technology give you something that can be displayed like a topo map (see here for those who don't know what these are.) I want to know if analogizing the coins to these are apt.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>Will all coins (other than cross overs) be scanned even outside PCGS secure system. If I submit a coin express will it get scanned just like the PCGS secured coins? >>
Craig,
I got this question answered while I was in Fort Worth.
As I understand it, PCGS will just be scanning the coins submitted under the Secure submissions for now, to see what the traffic is and to assess the capacity of the system. But the goal definitely is to eventually scan all submissions into the database.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
MANOFCOINS - currently we are scanning Secure Plus submissions only. We realize that we should be checking every submission to see if it has been submitted through Secure Plus or possibly stolen. We will get there eventually.
mozin - why do the English drive on the wrong side of the road. That's the way we do it.
PLE - That is incorrect. Secure Plus submissions are based on service level, not coin type. You certainly can submit patterns at the Express or Walkthrough levels for regrading or submit them for reholder.
Aegis3 - I already answered the variety question - maybe someday. We have no plans to display our test coins. What we generate really isn't like a topo map.
AllCoinsRule - Your understanding of how regrades work is correct. It works exactly the same way for Secure Plus. The graders will grade the coin whatevery it is, with no knowledge of what is was previously.
How does PCGS define "artificially enhanced?" I can't find that term in the PCGS Library.
"Additionally, PCGS expert graders can now designate deserving, superior-quality coins as "Plus" within their respective grades, an important distinction when there are big differences in value between one grade point and the next."*
Is this a response to CAC? It seems as if it's the same philosophy. I know in the old days some of us did used to use a rather informal ABC system for denoting quality within the given grade.
*From: PCGS Announces PCGS Secure Plus™ Service for Increased Consumer Protection and Plus Grades for Added Value -March 25, 2010.
There is a B-School *teaching* moment here. Don & Crew have instigated a process marketing of this new product by fielding real-world questions from the actual/potential customer base.
Companies all over the world would ‘kill’ for an opportunity to get real-time customer feed-back when introducing a new product. I'll bet there are questions here that the PCGS crew never considered before the roll-out.
This thread is also creating a wonderful data base template for a future ‘PCGS Secure Plus F.A.Q.
Way to go!
Hoard the keys.
kurtdog - I don't know if we have a definition somewhere of artificially enhanced, but it means just what is says. A couple examples would be: the application of foreign substances meant to alter and enhance the appearance of the coin or to hide certain marks or blemishes on the coin; and, the application of toning, i.e., color, through deliberate means such as exposure to heat and/or gases. What is not included in artifical enhancement would be light dipping or the development of natural toning over a period of time. edited to add: PCGS Secure Plus was developed without any other grading service in mind and that includes CAC.
Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface.
I think the PCGS Secure Plus with the coin scanning to recognize previously submitted coins and / or altered coins is a break through worthy of "The Big One" hype.
I can't wait to view some PLUS graded coins in-hand.
GrandAm
I believe it was stated previously that approximately 10-15% of coins are expected to receive the + Designation, but also more specifically that + would be given to coins graded .7 .8 and .9 for a given grade. Seemingly by the numbers, that would reflect 30% of the overall grading scale, or 30% of coins. Are there just much fewer coins that receive .7 .8 and .9 for some reason? Again I apologize if this is a dumb question - I just want to try to have as good of an idea as possible as to what a + represents.
<< <i>Hello sir. I just had one additional question - I apologize if it is a foolish one.
I believe it was stated previously that approximately 10-15% of coins are expected to receive the + Designation, but also more specifically that + would be given to coins graded .7 .8 and .9 for a given grade. Seemingly by the numbers, that would reflect 30% of the overall grading scale, or 30% of coins. Are there just much fewer coins that receive .7 .8 and .9 for some reason? Again I apologize if this is a dumb question - I just want to try to have as good of an idea as possible as to what a + represents. >>
I was doing the same math when I heard the announcement while watching the videos. I was guessing that maybe only half of the coins that are technically a .7 .8 or .9 grade have the positive eye appeal worthy of the + affixed to the grade... not sure if that's right though.
Thanks again Don.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I'm a Statehood Quarter collector. When will this service be affordable for me to submit my coins and not pay a months salary. Thanks, Jason
Don't hate on Moderns. Your Kids and Grandkids are going to pay out the A$$ for them when they're your age!
First off, thank you. I think it goes without saying how much we all appreciate your leadership of PCGS, my forum return not withstanding.
I would respectfully like to address the First Strike Program, and specifically the pre-2005 MS Silver Eagle First Strikes. I certainly applaud the program as it has certainly inspired many collectors to invest in what are usually the best struck coins but also to buy sooner than later. I think most will agree that as a result they have seen an increase in the overall value/resale of these coins and continues to provide that value add aspect.
As one of the earliest and strongest supporters of the First Strike program, I as well as many others, would like to see PCGS open up existing MS Silver Eagle First Strike Registry sets to include ALL PCGS Graded pre-2005 Silver Eagle First Strikes. To the majority of Silver Eagle collectors, it has always been a puzzle why only post-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles were the only First Strike Silver Eagles permitted in the "Complete First Strike Silver Eagles" set when so many PCGS graded pre-2005 First Strike Silver Eagles exist.
I respectfully believe this would be a positive move for the First Strike program and appreciate the opportunity to express my suggestion. Again, great job and thank you so much.
Forgive me if this has been asked (I didn't see the answer yet). Will the plus be given to a coin that is in the top percentage of others in the catagory of designation, i.e. cameo, full steps, fbl, etc.?
It really wasn't a puzzle to me at all. I was in full agreement with DH's decision. It avoided coins which were being priced at thousands of dollars simply for a label becoming REQUIRED coins in the registry. Indeed, a number of those previously multi-thousand coins are now worth less than $100 (and some less than $50!) It was a fabulous decision by DH. Of course, this issue is off point so let's continue this discussion on another thread if you like - perhaps over on the registry forum.
Wondercoin
<< <i>kurtdog - I don't know if we have a definition somewhere of artificially enhanced, but it means just what is says. A couple examples would be: the application of foreign substances meant to alter and enhance the appearance of the coin or to hide certain marks or blemishes on the coin; and, the application of toning, i.e., color, through deliberate means such as exposure to heat and/or gases. What is not included in artifical enhancement would be light dipping or the development of natural toning over a period of time. edited to add: PCGS Secure Plus was developed without any other grading service in mind and that includes CAC. >>
Don, thank you for your reply. I sincerely mean that. You must be one very busy President, these days, just making good on your offer to answer our questions in this thread. How's my credit around this joint, am I good for one more? If so, I'd like to know about these computers, and how they fit in. Just give me the kindergarten version of it. Let's take "artificial enhancement" and counterfeiting, for example. Would these computers be programmed to assist the graders in determining those? I'm still a little fuzzy, there. I've been trying to get the answers off these replies (I read the entire thread), but am unfortunately only the more confused for it.
Thanks.
I think I know this answer , but please confirm for me.
If I have a 1921 ms66 peace dollar which has a "weight" in the PCGS Registry of 6 and that particular coin receives the +, making it MS66+, does that mean that the coin will now receive 3 points in the Registry ????, or would it only receive an actual half point no matter what weight a paticular coin carries ???
<< <i> Indeed, a number of those previously multi-thousand coins are now worth less than $100 (and some less than $50!) >>
YES, I know. I have EVERY YEAR at MS69.
Continued on the Set Registy Forum
<< <i>dcarr wrote: What type of data does the laser scanning process collect ?
Luminosity (reflectance) like a traditional digital picture,
or a 3-D surface map of the coin's contours ? >>
<< <i>DonWillis wrote: dcarr - for obvious reasons there is only so much technical information we want to disclose. >>
Before I submit any coins for this service, I am going to want to know exactly what kind of data is being collected on my property,
how it is being stored and used, for whose benefit, who will have access to it, and what any future uses of this data might be.
For example if it is high-resolution 3-D scans, then there will exist a library of such data on lots of coins, and it could at some
point potentially be used to make very accurate replicas of particular coins.
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>dcarr wrote: What type of data does the laser scanning process collect ?
Luminosity (reflectance) like a traditional digital picture,
or a 3-D surface map of the coin's contours ? >>
<< <i>DonWillis wrote: dcarr - for obvious reasons there is only so much technical information we want to disclose. >>
Before I submit any coins for this service, I am going to want to know exactly what kind of data is being collected on my property,
how it is being stored and used, for whose benefit, who will have access to it, and what any future uses of this data might be.
For example if it is high-resolution 3-D scans, then there will exist a library of such data on lots of coins, and it could at some
point potentially be used to make very accurate replicas of particular coins. >>
Considering the very short time frame for the scan, I doubt the stored info would be detailed enough to make an accurate replica - if such a technology were even realistic. And only the obverse is scanned.
Looking at the video from PCGS and the setup, I believe it is just a scan that takes data points to create a "fingerprint" of the coin and not an exact 3-d map per say and ran through some pattern recognition program to ID the coin. It is not necessary to take a 3-d map of the coin to ID it, but that is guess work on my part.
Probably this same technology.
Laser scanner for coins
<< <i>Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface. >>
I have a hard time accepting that "too much acetone can damage the coin's luster". I just don't see how that is physically possible unless the coin had been doctored in the first place to artificially enhance the luster with some foreign substance.
I know you want to keep this thread related to Secure Plus, but if you could elaborate on the damage that can be caused by acetone, that would be great, as this is something entirely new to me, and others as well I would guess.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>Type2 - Not really a Secure Plus question.... acetone can sometimes be used to remove foreign material from the surfaces without ruining the coin. However too much can damage the coin's luster and surface. >>
I have a hard time accepting that "too much acetone can damage the coin's luster". I just don't see how that is physically possible unless the coin had been doctored in the first place to artificially enhance the luster with some foreign substance.
I know you want to keep this thread related to Secure Plus, but if you could elaborate on the damage that can be caused by acetone, that would be great, as this is something entirely new to me, and others as well I would guess. >>
Acetone can bring up a lot of junk, including verdigris, that otherwise wasn't visible. I have noticed that. As for any negative effect on luster, that'd be a hard one to nail down, I'd think, either way.
<< <i>Acetone ...any negative effect on luster, that'd be a hard one to nail down, I'd think, either way. >>
Not at all. Loss of luster, such as that caused by dipping in Jeweluster, is easily seen with a Scanning Electron Microscope. (please let Mr. Willis answer the questions)
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
JL3Eleven - PCGS Secure Plus is based on service level, not coin type. As we have said, we are starting off with the higher service levels which address the more expensive coins. That's our starting point and we will work from there. If you are a PCGS Collector Club member watch for your next quarterly special.
stephunter - the + designation will be given based on being superior for the grade (not the variety).
kurtdog - PCGS Secure Plus is a big first step in aiding in the detection of altered coins. The more information we can provide to the graders, the better job they can do. The key is to recognize that what we have done is only the first step - a big one at that. There will be more.
Proof - the + counts as a half point on your grade. Then it's the usual math of weighting each coin and dividing by the total weight (see the Registry rules for a complete explaination).
dcarr - sorry but we are not sharing all our technical information.
bushmaster8 - lets stick to Secure Plus on this thread. I'll PM you.
Can you please summarize this whole thread for me so i do not have to read it all... HAHA
On the real-
secure Plus is a process that I can send my coin in and have it scanned, marked, and forever tagged for tracking- at the same time you will assess my coin to decide whether it is plus worthy or not?
However, I do not have to send it in for the Secure part but I can send it in for the plus part? is this correct?
I could send you 250 coins and have PCGS assess them for "+" worthiness but not have them go through the Secure part of the process... is this correct?
just looking for some clarification
John
If I send you coins to get graded and considering your are designating a plus grade why should I have to pay extra for you to grade the coin with a plus? I would assume that a plus is part of the grade so why should I have to pay more for you to accuratly grade my coins considering I am sending them to you to get graded in the first place ? I understand that this is all new but wouldnt it have made more sense to simply increase the cost of grading for all coins and include the secure plus with all submissions, wouldnt that have really done more to decrease the doctored coins on the market?
<< <i>Don,
I understand that this is all new but wouldnt it have made more sense to simply increase the cost of grading for all coins and include the secure plus with all submissions, wouldnt that have really done more to decrease the doctored coins on the market? >>
Yes, but then I believe ngc would receive more submissions to try to avoid the "secure" part.
I really believe that PCGS Secure Plus will prove to be a very positive development for Coin Collecting and especially for you collectors.
Don
My deepest thanks for your time, insight, and generous input.
And above all your patience!
Many thanks for answering all the questions you have had.
Best wishes,
Eric
Mr. Willis,
Thank you for the time and energy expended
on our behalf regarding Secure Plus grading.
I only have one question [ all the others have
been answered ]: if I submit a PCGS Pedigreed
coin [ ie: Eliasberg ; Friend; Price ] to Secure Plus
for regrade [ hoping for an advance in grade or a "+" ]
will I be able to keep the Pedigree on the holder ?
Thank you in advance.
Mike Hayes
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
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