Calling All Numismatic Detectives - Pattern Experts Welcome

mmotx · March 28, 2010 12:21AM

Lets see if anyone comes to the same conclusion I did on what this die was for...

E-bay linky

OchoReales · March 28, 2010 12:32AM

Bickford pattern?

fcloud · March 28, 2010 1:12AM

Very cool! Seems like it went for a bargin price.

RWB · March 28, 2010 1:21AM

Looks crude - like a student exercise.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 28, 2010 1:40AM

I love those little errors in the use of our English words. We use "dye" to color fabric or hair. In numismatics, that would be associated with artificial toning. In this eBay ad, it refers to manufacturing. Oh well, I knew what the seller was referring to.

That's not such a big deal, per se, but the use of the language is important in the study of numismatics.

sinin1 · March 28, 2010 2:22AM

how about Barbers sailors head pattern?

link to us patterns page

but as already said, the denticles on die look off, like possibly a fake

edit to add eBay pic

messydesk · March 28, 2010 3:20AM

Denticles look sloppy and Jay Leno seems to have posed for the chin. Looks similar to the Barber pattern above, but looks like a crude copy of it.

mmotx · March 28, 2010 1:12PM

I can agree on all points thus far made, and to me it most resembles a Barber pattern dollar mentioned. So...for those who are well versed in patterns, I would enjoy a best guess or explanation. Btw, I did not buy it. Intrigue is fueling my inquiry.

Bayard1908 · March 28, 2010 1:27PM

Somebody will be tempted to make splashers with it.

coindeuce · March 28, 2010 1:39PM

No way is it a legit die. Coin dies are never a simple cylinder. The coin/medal design is always engraved at the top of a taper from a cylinder of a diameter that is larger than the coin/medal diameter.

SaorAlba · March 28, 2010 10:04PM

The Chinese are moving into dies now.

sinin1 · March 29, 2010 4:38AM

hey mmotx, what is your thoughts?

it is obvious the seller had no clue what they had - they even called it a dye

I think someone practiced making a die and used
the pattern I listed as a model
I hope they had one in hand - if not it is darn scary if someone could do that from a pic

I am not sure if diameters match, but the locations are fairly close
it may have been used for some commemorative medal as one side at some time

I do not remember ever seeing anything looking like that - but there are billions of coins/medals I have never seen

some say it is poorly made - I think it is pretty good comsidering
the eBay pic makes it hard to see the detail on the head
the denticles are the worst part - and could have been damaged since it was used

as far as not being a mint product because it is wrong shape,
I think it would br close if someone cut off the end opposite the die face - which then gets bigger for the mint

mmotx · March 29, 2010 12:09PM

Well...I am trying to find the reason for its existence, and I keep coming up with question marks. It is clear to me at least the intent was to at very least mimic the Barber Sailor Head pattern. I agree the dentilation and the chin looks off, but then again the photos aren't great so who knows how close it really is. I am unaware of any production copies of this pattern, and given the coins rarity and fairly well documented provenance, it is unlikely someone (at least today) would make an attempt at counterfeiting. I also find it interesting that most of other items sold by this seller can be dated to the late 1800s and early 1900s. Given the context, the die being modern doesn't seem likely to me.

That said, if we can somehow agree it is period, the likelihood of an attempted counterfeit die for such an obscure coin doesn't seem like a plausible answer either. A counterfeiter would find much greater utility in making a struck copy of circulating coinage.

So, I would really like to hear from a pattern expert, because I'm not familiar if there were significant striking variations for patterns. I would also be interested in knowing if it is possible this die was intended for pattern production, but as everyone has noted, was discarded because of imperfections.

My best guess is a blundered and discarded die that was originally intended for striking a pattern.

pruebas · March 29, 2010 2:01PM

<< <i>My best guess is a blundered and discarded die that was originally intended for striking a pattern. >>

I like your logic. I was thinking the same thing.

coindeuce · March 29, 2010 2:26PM

Was it not protocol for Mint coining staff to deface any die that was being discarded, wether used or not, as a matter of law?

RWB · March 29, 2010 11:42PM

Defective hub/dies etc. were destroyed at the mint. Coindeuce is also correct on the shape of a real 19th century US mint die.

Absent better photos, it's whatever one’s imagination wants to believe it is.

Logic does not operate on a chain of speculation.

mmotx · March 29, 2010 11:58PM

RWB - We all know nothing has ever escaped from the Mint that shouldn't have. Now regarding the shape of dies, that is something I'm not too familiar with, so I will defer to your expertise that it is outside of the realm of possibility that this was Mint inspired.

I know it might require a little stretching, but I would enjoy your opinion as to what it is, as opposed to what it isn't.

sinin1 · March 30, 2010 12:09AM

I think no one knows 'what it is'

but can only speculate what it 'could be'

US Mint dies look different and are defaced when discarded

How close is this seller to Philadelphia?

mmotx · March 30, 2010 12:12AM

Of course...what it might be.

messydesk · March 30, 2010 12:19AM

Violation of 18 USC § 487 (making or possession of counterfeit dies) carries a stiffer penalty than 18 USC § 486 (making, uttering, or passing counterfeit coins). I'm surprised this auction was allowed to finish.

RWB · March 30, 2010 1:01AM

Given the "attitude" of RWB - We all know nothing has ever escaped from the Mint that shouldn't have.
you can swim in your own juice.

CaptHenway · March 30, 2010 1:06AM

<< <i>The Chinese are moving into dies now. >>

mmotx · March 30, 2010 10:45AM

Sorry RWB. Perhaps I should have winked

And while I have no intention of making anything of anything, it is a stretch for me to believe "logic does not operate on a chain of speculation" couldn't have been interpreted in the same vein. Maybe being able to take as much as we dish out is a good model for all of us to go by

Back to topic, it seems it has run its course with the most popular opinion being that it is bogus for the sake of being bogus (or possibly of Chinese origin), which in my opinion isn't a very good answer, but it seems like what I'll settle for this time and say I appreciated everyone's input and opinions.

Calling All Numismatic Detectives - Pattern Experts Welcome

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