The "REAL MARKET" for PCGS Secure + graded coins
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
MODERN CRAP
Imagine a 1957 Lincoln Cent graded ms 66 red and pretty nice for the grade. Retail is about $40 for the coin.
In a PCGS ms 67 red holder it is a $10,000 coin or there about.
If you are one of the first to get a MS 66+ you may hit the jackpot and get $1,000,$2,000 or maybe even $3,000 for this modern crap.
Now that IMO is the "Real" market for + coins.
Stewart
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<< <i>MODERN CRAP
Imagine a 1957 Lincoln Cent graded ms 66 red and pretty nice for the grade. Retail is about $40 for the coin.
In a PCGS ms 67 red holder it is a $10,000 coin or there about.
If you are one of the first to get a MS 66+ you may hit the jackpot and get $1,000,$2,000 or maybe even $3,000 for this modern crap.
Now that IMO is the "Real" market for + coins.
Stewart >>
Isn't this true with any series, wherever the spread between grades is great?
Lance.
<< <i>the "Real Market" for secure plus is in how it will affect the crackout and resubmission junkies. once PCGS starts to use this for everything(and i firmly believe that's only a matter of time) you'll see crackout and resubmissions start to dry up. >>
So whether you ask for it or not, you feel that PCGS is going to scan all submitted coins as a matter of course?
I was figuring maybe $110.
I am a buyer at $80. Maybe of course I have to agree with the plus.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I do not understand why the Plus is not used wherever it is appropriate. I mean, if the graders are grading a Saint in a routine (non-Secure Plus) order and the coin deserves a 65 Plus, because it is nicer than 80-90% of the 65s but not quite a 66, why not call is a 65 Plus? >>
I would imagine the answer is simply....pay the extra money for us to consider it as a + coin and we'll do so. If not, then send it under the regular service and keep guessing.
Don said this new technology cost PCGS millions, so they have to get their money back from this new service don't they?
Now, do I agree with this............NOOOOO, but hey I don't run PCGS and have all their overhead either.
My question is.....when will they include the Secure Plus + under the Regular grading service, any guesses?
RYK - YOU MUST PAY FOR THE +. $65 - $100
Lance - I agree with you because it is all about the "SET REGISTRY"
Stewart
<< <i>RYK - YOU MUST PAY FOR THE +. $65 - $100
Lance - I agree with you because it is all about the "SET REGISTRY"
Stewart >>
Thanks for agreeing with me Stewart.....like I said, it comes down to the new service costing the collector MORE $$$$.
After all, what would be the financial incentive for PCGS to come out with this new service unless it somehow generates revenue for them, right?
<< <i>
<< <i>the "Real Market" for secure plus is in how it will affect the crackout and resubmission junkies. once PCGS starts to use this for everything(and i firmly believe that's only a matter of time) you'll see crackout and resubmissions start to dry up. >>
So whether you ask for it or not, you feel that PCGS is going to scan all submitted coins as a matter of course? >>
Of course they will do that eventually. Whether that is in the next 3 months or next 3 years is undetermined at this point. Unless the new Secure Plus service is mandatory, the "Big One" doesn't reach it's "Big One" potential in curbing the crackout and resubmit and/or the coin doctoring issues. But I can see why they don't make it mandatory from the onset, give folks time to adjust to the idea and to give PCGS some time to get used to the process of SecurePlus when some orders start rolling in from the public.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I do not understand why the Plus is not used wherever it is appropriate. I mean, if the graders are grading a Saint in a routine (non-Secure Plus) order and the coin deserves a 65 Plus, because it is nicer than 80-90% of the 65s but not quite a 66, why not call is a 65 Plus? >>
Agree, but how else can PCGS profit from this new grade modifier?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I do not understand why the Plus is not used wherever it is appropriate. I mean, if the graders are grading a Saint in a routine (non-Secure Plus) order and the coin deserves a 65 Plus, because it is nicer than 80-90% of the 65s but not quite a 66, why not call is a 65 Plus? >>
Agree, but how else can PCGS profit from this new grade modifier?
More folks will send in coins for regrades under existing service tiers.
The Secure Plus additional cost is justified by the additional technology and work required.
If the coin deserves a 65 Plus, why not place the proper grade on it?
A conservative guess is that 75% of all coins that merit slabbing have already been slabbed by the major TPG's. Those that haven't been aren't likely to (until heirs release them to the market, perhaps).
There's a steady stream of moderns but not many are worth holdering...talking value here. Crossovers and crack-outs don't bring big money.
Sounds like an industry growing smaller.
So what can PCGS do to grow the business and make money for shareholders? Introduce new services that can potentially add hundreds of $millions to the market but only if coin owners pay PCGS. Add value to, and interest in, the service by addressing doctoring and theft concerns. All while earning bonus points for dinging the competition, NGC and CAC.
PCGS will make plus-grading more widely available and affordable down the road. You can count on it. I think their deliberate caution is smart. And I'm sure we'll see anti-counterfeiting measures down the road too. It's good for their business.
Lance.
<< <i>I can't get a dealer to pay more for an XF45 over an XF40 (because it's just XF bid). How is he going to pay any more for a 45+? It's still a 45. The only people that will benefit are the dealers when they sell you an XF45+ that they bought at XF40 money. >>
I disagree. If you own "Plus" caliber coins, and send them in for regrading, the coins will sell for more at auction, and, eventually, to market makers of this product. They will probably sell more directly to collectors (ie. on the BST), too.
And, that is probably the key - obviously, if the coin becomes pop 50 in 66+, thousands might likely fall back to hundreds of dollars.
But, for the really great (quality for the grade) coins from the 1930's-1960's, the plus may surely make the coins more easily saleable, but I am not sure yet about just how much the "added value" will be (that will be interesting to see). For example, many years ago when I bought Richard Green's 1935-S PCGS-MS67 Washington Quarter (which was his favorite coin in the set I believe), I paid in excess of $10,000 for a coin worth perhaps half that much in a "regular" MS67 holder at the time. The coin was MS67 ++ and the nicest I had ever seen. So, now a "regular" (decent) MS67 coin is perhaps $3,000-$4,000 or so. Assume I get the "plus" on this 1935-S quarter one day- what did that + add as I was not a seller of this coin for under $10,000 in any circumstance, even before the +? On the other hand, the + may turn out fantastic for those marginal + coins that slip into the + category. And, by marginal, I mean lovely specimens, but not clear "strong shots" to the next highest grade (e.g. the roughly 1/3 of the plus coins that are the .7 ones). We'll see though. My sense is for those who know their series well, the + will be a very helpful addition.
Wondercoin
WS
<< <i>I do not understand why the Plus is not used wherever it is appropriate. I mean, if the graders are grading a Saint in a routine (non-Secure Plus) order and the coin deserves a 65 Plus, because it is nicer than 80-90% of the 65s but not quite a 66, why not call is a 65 Plus? >>
I agree with this completey. In another post Don Willis said that PCGS goal was to "ensure that every coin we grade is given the proper grade." It seems silly that the price of submission would affect the grade. I bet that if the + grade seems to be accepted and appreciated, it will eventually trickle down to all coins. The same probably holds for the "Secure" part.
PCGS pop report 1957 1c MS66RD - 479; MS666+RD - 0; MS67RD - 5.
I don't know what a 66+ will sell for, the market will decide, but it will probably be for a lot more than $90 and a lot less than $5500.
I think the + grades offer a terrific opportunity for collectors to put together really highend sets at prices that they can afford. Some may not have the budget to buy MS67, but they can get MS66+ - which will be nearly the quality - at substantially less cost.
+ grades will only be available via Secure Plus submissions. Frankly, we (and you) want the protection of the Secure scanning to ensure consistency and precision in our grading and to catch those who would deceive us. There are many out there who would like to see this fail. But that ain't gonna happen.
And what's the chance that the submitter is going to use this service level unless he's pretty certain of the outcome. Even still, I doubt people with a bunch of $40 coins is going to pay the significantly higher price per coin on the longshot that it gets a plus when a 67 is the real target, and can still be acheived with a regular submission.
Empty Nest Collection
make any economic sense at all. Why do we do these
thing,....because we are coin collectors. We don't have
to make sense.
Camelot
<< <i>Currently there are no Lincoln cents with a "plus" anyway. >>
What about the pic of the MS66+RD 1909-S VDB on the PCGS website? I know, not quite a $40 coin
Edited to link to photo:
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Ron
<< <i>Often we collectors do the craziest things that do not make any economic sense at all. >>
Amen Bear Amen!
Reminds me of the line by firearms writer John Taffin when asked why he collects .44 Special revolvers. "Because I want to and because I can!"
<< <i>
<< <i>Currently there are no Lincoln cents with a "plus" anyway. >>
What about the pic of the MS66+RD 1909-S VDB on the PCGS website? I know, not quite a $40 coin
Edited to link to photo:
Not in the pop report and cert number not found. Check the reports for yourself.
Empty Nest Collection
That's an excellent point. For those who are trying to upgrade their sets, it provides an opportunity to take things to the next level where perhaps they were previously at a dead end. The 1920 Saint in 64 comes to mind.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
population report must not be updated yet
or maybe chinese technology spies that are working onsite
have left a new prototype counterfeit coin/slab laying around to
see if it would fool the original makers
just kidding of course