Well, I had no expectations, so I am not let down at all. It seems intersting but I am not gonna throw a party. I would rather see more grading done on THIS side of the plastic. Ah. Yawn.
<< <i>Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.
I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.
This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end. >>
>>
I am sorry that you guys are so disappointed by the announcement. But frankly, the koolaid remark was a bunch of bologna. It is well known by many people (including PCGS) that I am anything but a koolaid drinker. I don't really care about the plus designation. But I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent against coin doctoring. And, while I'm a dealer, I don't understand why you, as collectors, don't seem to care much about it.
If you don't like things like the new plus designation, there is no need to submit any coins in an effort to get it or to buy any coins that have the designation. There are certainly a multitude of other options/coins out there with which to enjoy the hobby.
The big disappointment is not really at all with the announcement or the new services per se, but rather with the months of hype that this was to be an enormous new development from way out in left field that nobody could possibly guess even for a thousand bucks, and it would revolutionize things on a basis comparable with the 1986 steps towards grading standardization. On that basis it was not a big one but a tiny one. A dud.
I don't agree with the comment that you have to be a kool-aid drinker or get out of the business.
But I think that if you would view your own choice of words, " I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent to coin doctoring, you may understand how many of us are disappointed by the announcement. It was over hyped. Members guessed this exact thing and were told, "No one was even close." And it doesn't do anything to address the more serious threat to the hobby, - counterfeiting of both, coins and holders.
<< <i>I don't agree with the comment that you have to be a kool-aid drinker or get out of the business.
But I think that if you would view your own choice of words, " I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent to coin doctoring, you may understand how many of us are disappointed by the announcement. It was over hyped. Members guessed this exact thing and were told, "No one was even close." And it doesn't do anything to address the more serious threat to the hobby, - counterfeiting of both, coins and holders. >>
I was trying to avoid hype in my comments - hence the choice of words such as "hopeful", "might eventually" and "deterrent". But your point is very well taken.
<< <i>The big disappointment is not really at all with the announcement or the new services per se, but rather with the months of hype that this was to be an enormous new development from way out in left field that nobody could possibly guess even for a thousand bucks, and it would revolutionize things on a basis comparable with the 1986 steps towards grading standardization. On that basis it was not a big one but a tiny one. A dud. >>
And this is an understatement.
Save $$$ on many purchases to include EBAY and EBay Stores.
<< <i>As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>
Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them. >>
Maybe he is just expressing an opinion. I'm sure he is not alone in his feelings in my opinion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A monumental disappointment and waste of our time. If you're trying to identify altered surface coins, you think it would be recognized that 99.9% of the cases would involve alteration prior to, not after, being submitted to PCGS. As for the +, CAC already does that for one-tenth the cost and submission hassle over a much broader range of coins. Perhaps the announcement came exactly one week too early.
While I maintain that the "big one" did not live up to the hype, I think the enhanced security is beneficial to the high end market, and should reduce the crackout/dip/doctoring game on such coins in pursuit of higher grades.
The "plus" grades seem to be a gimmick to counter CAC. I don't think this will affect CAC signficiantly, and many "plus" coins will still be submitted to CAC anyway.
<< <i>Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.
I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.
This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end. >>
>>
I am sorry that you guys are so disappointed by the announcement. But frankly, the koolaid remark was a bunch of bologna. It is well known by many people (including PCGS) that I am anything but a koolaid drinker. I don't really care about the plus designation. But I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent against coin doctoring. And, while I'm a dealer, I don't understand why you, as collectors, don't seem to care much about it. >>
Here are my thoughts Mark after reviewing your post:
#1- I don't think you are a Kool-Aid drinker but I have been surprised a bit about what seems like your support for a process that frankly doesn't seem like it could ever make a dent in coin doctoring (in its present form), but I respect your right to your opinion and I think your motives are pure.
#2 - I am probably the biggest proponent of stopping doctoring on this and any other forum especially when it come to artificial toning. I have been very vocal about contacting Ebay and putting these sellers on blast so that folks don't get screwed and I have also worked with folks behind the scenes to get key information to the TPGs.
#3 - As it stands, based on what has been released about the current process I don't see how this helps stop coin doctoring probably 95 to 98% of the time? Most of the coins being doctored are raw or are potentially being cracked out of other holders or even current PCGS holders so there are probably 100s of millions of coins available for the doctors to play with that will not get caught in this drag net now or anytime in the next decade. For this to work NGC, ANACS, PCGS would all have to sign off and all use the technology to scan and image 100% of their coins...then I could see a huge difference in a relatively short time.
#4 - If #3 was done and everyone used this technology then the financial impacts to said companies could be huge due to the drop in crossovers and resubmissions so it is not in any of the top grading companies best interests to scan all coins because shareholders don't like losing money.
#5 - I would contend that the biggest doctoring of coins takes place in the area of dipping (some may not agree) and it remains to be seen if dipping a coin is going to flag it as being altered especially in light of it being such a common widely accepted practice.
Counterfeit detection of both coins and slabs seems on the surface to be a much more manageable issue to tackle at this point and certainly could benefit all in the hobby right now where as only the higher echelon collectors seem to be the target of these early attempts by PCGS. I commend them for trying something new, I just think for 95% of the collectors here and ATS, the reality in no way met up with the hype because of the gaping holes the are readily apparent in this "first step" towards laser scanning/laser grading.
<< <i> #3 - As it stands, based on what has been released about the current process I don't see how this helps stop coin doctoring probably 95 to 98% of the time? Most of the coins being doctored are raw or are potentially being cracked out of other holders or even current PCGS holders so there are probably 100s of millions of coins available for the doctors to play with that will not get caught in this drag net now or anytime in the next decade. For this to work NGC, ANACS, PCGS would all have to sign off and all use the technology to scan and image 100% of their coins...then I could see a huge difference in a relatively short time. >>
I'm admittedly a rookie...don't own a single certified coin. But this is where th BO has to be heading to truly qualify as the BIG ONE, IMHO.
So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future.
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
"Well here's another nice mess you have gotten me into" Oliver Hardy 1930
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
In reality, this is the market's own fault for letting the top tier grading services become the kingmakers in the industry. For better or worse (probably a little of both), collectors and dealers relied enough on the PCGS name that they arguably became the most powerful entity in the game. And now they make markets rather than reflect them -- the market changes after the Low Ball and Everyman registry bear this out clearly.
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
In reality, this is the market's own fault for letting the top tier grading services become the kingmakers in the industry. For better or worse (probably a little of both), collectors and dealers relied enough on the PCGS name that they arguably became the most powerful entity in the game. And now they make markets rather than reflect them -- the market changes after the Low Ball and Everyman registry bear this out clearly. >>
What everyone has to remember, is this:
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth.
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth. >>
Who said anything about wanting them out of business? I certainly don't (especially the authenticating aspect of their businesses which are an unqualified asset to the hobby). I'm just saying that if we don't like how the big TPGs are calling the shots and making markets, we did it to ourselves by our collective reliance on their services and opinions.
I guess the pcgs "shield" on their insert is meant to combat the caci sticker. And you thought it was bad when there was an 11 point span from ms60 to ms70 and now there are 18 grades (no 61 plus or 62 plus) I can just see people arguing over which is nicer, this 63 plus or that 64. Altogether a big disapoint that didn't "rock my world". I thought for sure they would go to details grading. buffnixx
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth. >>
Who said anything about wanting them out of business? I certainly don't (especially the authenticating aspect of their businesses which are an unqualified asset to the hobby). I'm just saying that if we don't like how the big TPGs are calling the shots and making markets, we did it to ourselves by our collective reliance on their services and opinions. >>
Nor did I say anything about wanting them out of business. But, companies fold all the time, so it's a good idea to keep that in mind.
When a TPG has a long and respected existence as an accurate grading company, whether the company remain or goes out of business, their slabbed coins will still be valuable and highly respected.
Soty, excuse me but I believe your ignorance is showing. Just because you do not understand something does give you the right to mock it. People are afraid of the unknown; it is human nature and has been around since the cave men. I submit sir that instead of ridiculing something unknown educate yourself first and make an informed decision instead. This counrty needs to relearn this lesson, quickly before it is to late.
Mark has done a good job explaining that the "Big One" is not the plus grading but the new technology being used. I understand this technologhy; I have watched it evolve over the last 30 plus years and I can tell you for a fact that it will revolutionize the coin grading industry. Mapping the surface of a coin is the biggest thing that has happened since PCGS came into existance. They are just beginning to understand all the uses for this scanner, and those uses will explode into new services in the comming years. If PCGS does exploit them others will; there is too much money involved in this business now.
Wars were once fought with sticks and stones; now they are waged with weapons of mass destruction. Welcome to the 21st.
<< <i>I guess the pcgs "shield" on their insert is meant to combat the caci sticker. And you thought it was bad when there was an 11 point span from ms60 to ms70 and now there are 18 grades (no 61 plus or 62 plus) I can just see people arguing over which is nicer, this 63 plus or that 64. Altogether a big disapoint that didn't "rock my world". I thought for sure they would go to details grading. buffnixx >>
I think you meant "no 60 plus or 61 plus".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree that many dealers will continue on with their policy of selling only CAC coins. So for them it means that plus coins still have to get CAC stickers. And no doubt, some + coins for whatever reason will be rejected, though I would guess the number will be small for most types of coins. Considering that CAC is 3rd party, it seems to me that big ticket buyers will still want the added peace of mind of having a CAC sticker on their coins.
In creating this + sign category, imo this now makes a PCGS 64+ coin probably fairly comparable to a low end NGC 65. It will invite direct comparison from sharp coin buyers which may have been one of the original thoughts in creating this new program. The low end NGC coins are now getting squeezed by CAC on the high end, and by + on the other end. It's possible that a P64+ CAC coin could start bringing as much or more than a low end N65. In which case it will drum up more business for CAC and PCGS....less for NGC. I suspect a counter move from NGC on this one as the * will no longer cut it alone.
Comments
Best,
Eric
<< <i>Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.
I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.
This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.
I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.
This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end. >>
I am sorry that you guys are so disappointed by the announcement. But frankly, the koolaid remark was a bunch of bologna. It is well known by many people (including PCGS) that I am anything but a koolaid drinker. I don't really care about the plus designation. But I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent against coin doctoring. And, while I'm a dealer, I don't understand why you, as collectors, don't seem to care much about it.
If you don't like things like the new plus designation, there is no need to submit any coins in an effort to get it or to buy any coins that have the designation. There are certainly a multitude of other options/coins out there with which to enjoy the hobby.
But I think that if you would view your own choice of words, " I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent to coin doctoring, you may understand how many of us are disappointed by the announcement. It was over hyped. Members guessed this exact thing and were told, "No one was even close." And it doesn't do anything to address the more serious threat to the hobby, - counterfeiting of both, coins and holders.
<< <i>I don't agree with the comment that you have to be a kool-aid drinker or get out of the business.
But I think that if you would view your own choice of words, " I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent to coin doctoring, you may understand how many of us are disappointed by the announcement. It was over hyped. Members guessed this exact thing and were told, "No one was even close." And it doesn't do anything to address the more serious threat to the hobby, - counterfeiting of both, coins and holders. >>
I was trying to avoid hype in my comments - hence the choice of words such as "hopeful", "might eventually" and "deterrent". But your point is very well taken.
how could the "facts" be from way out in left field ?
many people in D.H.'s post about the B1 came close to predicting what it was
too much hype , and now I wont be able to submit a coin over and over again .............
and I never used CAC , and doubt I will resubmit for a "+"
well then you mean 90% of the coins out there ?
<< <i>The big disappointment is not really at all with the announcement or the new services per se, but rather with the months of hype that this was to be an enormous new development from way out in left field that nobody could possibly guess even for a thousand bucks, and it would revolutionize things on a basis comparable with the 1986 steps towards grading standardization. On that basis it was not a big one but a tiny one. A dud. >>
And this is an understatement.
Big Crumbs Link
Mr Rebates Link
EBates Link
Chucknra@yahoo.com
now is a dreck sticker by Laura , for the dreaded "D" Coins.
Camelot
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>
Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them. >>
Maybe he is just expressing an opinion. I'm sure he is not alone in his feelings in my opinion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The "plus" grades seem to be a gimmick to counter CAC. I don't think this will affect CAC signficiantly, and many "plus" coins will still be submitted to CAC anyway.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.
I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.
This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end. >>
I am sorry that you guys are so disappointed by the announcement. But frankly, the koolaid remark was a bunch of bologna. It is well known by many people (including PCGS) that I am anything but a koolaid drinker. I don't really care about the plus designation. But I am hopeful that the laser scanning might eventually be used as a significant deterrent against coin doctoring. And, while I'm a dealer, I don't understand why you, as collectors, don't seem to care much about it.
>>
Here are my thoughts Mark after reviewing your post:
#1- I don't think you are a Kool-Aid drinker but I have been surprised a bit about what seems like your support for a process that frankly doesn't seem like it could ever make a dent in coin doctoring (in its present form), but I respect your right to your opinion and I think your motives are pure.
#2 - I am probably the biggest proponent of stopping doctoring on this and any other forum especially when it come to artificial toning. I have been very vocal about contacting Ebay and putting these sellers on blast so that folks don't get screwed and I have also worked with folks behind the scenes to get key information to the TPGs.
#3 - As it stands, based on what has been released about the current process I don't see how this helps stop coin doctoring probably 95 to 98% of the time? Most of the coins being doctored are raw or are potentially being cracked out of other holders or even current PCGS holders so there are probably 100s of millions of coins available for the doctors to play with that will not get caught in this drag net now or anytime in the next decade. For this to work NGC, ANACS, PCGS would all have to sign off and all use the technology to scan and image 100% of their coins...then I could see a huge difference in a relatively short time.
#4 - If #3 was done and everyone used this technology then the financial impacts to said companies could be huge due to the drop in crossovers and resubmissions so it is not in any of the top grading companies best interests to scan all coins because shareholders don't like losing money.
#5 - I would contend that the biggest doctoring of coins takes place in the area of dipping (some may not agree) and it remains to be seen if dipping a coin is going to flag it as being altered especially in light of it being such a common widely accepted practice.
Counterfeit detection of both coins and slabs seems on the surface to be a much more manageable issue to tackle at this point and certainly could benefit all in the hobby right now where as only the higher echelon collectors seem to be the target of these early attempts by PCGS. I commend them for trying something new, I just think for 95% of the collectors here and ATS, the reality in no way met up with the hype because of the gaping holes the are readily apparent in this "first step" towards laser scanning/laser grading.
(and Shane climbs down off his soapbox.........)
<< <i>
#3 - As it stands, based on what has been released about the current process I don't see how this helps stop coin doctoring probably 95 to 98% of the time? Most of the coins being doctored are raw or are potentially being cracked out of other holders or even current PCGS holders so there are probably 100s of millions of coins available for the doctors to play with that will not get caught in this drag net now or anytime in the next decade. For this to work NGC, ANACS, PCGS would all have to sign off and all use the technology to scan and image 100% of their coins...then I could see a huge difference in a relatively short time.
>>
I'm admittedly a rookie...don't own a single certified coin. But this is where th BO has to be heading to truly qualify as the BIG ONE, IMHO.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future.
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
In reality, this is the market's own fault for letting the top tier grading services become the kingmakers in the industry. For better or worse (probably a little of both), collectors and dealers relied enough on the PCGS name that they arguably became the most powerful entity in the game. And now they make markets rather than reflect them -- the market changes after the Low Ball and Everyman registry bear this out clearly.
Lost Dutchman Rare Coins
Indianapolis, IN
ANA 3137206
PCGS Authorized Dealer
<< <i>
<< <i>So, all the people who have submitted millions of coins for a Professional grading of their coins, and have paid Billions to have it done, are now told that their coins for the most part will become less valuable.
I smell some lawyers getting rich in the near future. >>
In reality, this is the market's own fault for letting the top tier grading services become the kingmakers in the industry. For better or worse (probably a little of both), collectors and dealers relied enough on the PCGS name that they arguably became the most powerful entity in the game. And now they make markets rather than reflect them -- the market changes after the Low Ball and Everyman registry bear this out clearly. >>
What everyone has to remember, is this:
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth.
<< <i>What everyone has to remember, is this:
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth. >>
Who said anything about wanting them out of business? I certainly don't (especially the authenticating aspect of their businesses which are an unqualified asset to the hobby). I'm just saying that if we don't like how the big TPGs are calling the shots and making markets, we did it to ourselves by our collective reliance on their services and opinions.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>
<< <i>What everyone has to remember, is this:
If either NGC or PCGS, or both, go out of business the registry goes with them. Then see what the coins are worth. >>
Who said anything about wanting them out of business? I certainly don't (especially the authenticating aspect of their businesses which are an unqualified asset to the hobby). I'm just saying that if we don't like how the big TPGs are calling the shots and making markets, we did it to ourselves by our collective reliance on their services and opinions. >>
Nor did I say anything about wanting them out of business. But, companies fold all the time, so it's a good idea to keep that in mind.
whether the company remain or goes out of business, their slabbed coins will still
be valuable and highly respected.
Camelot
<< <i>Nor did I say anything about wanting them out of business. But, companies fold all the time, so it's a good idea to keep that in mind. >>
"Too big to fail." Never heard that one before!
Soty, excuse me but I believe your ignorance is showing. Just because you do not understand something does give you the right to mock it. People are afraid of the unknown; it is human nature and has been around since the cave men. I submit sir that instead of ridiculing something unknown educate yourself first and make an informed decision instead. This counrty needs to relearn this lesson, quickly before it is to late.
Mark has done a good job explaining that the "Big One" is not the plus grading but the new technology being used. I understand this technologhy; I have watched it evolve over the last 30 plus years and I can tell you for a fact that it will revolutionize the coin grading industry. Mapping the surface of a coin is the biggest thing that has happened since PCGS came into existance. They are just beginning to understand all the uses for this scanner, and those uses will explode into new services in the comming years. If PCGS does exploit them others will; there is too much money involved in this business now.
Wars were once fought with sticks and stones; now they are waged with weapons of mass destruction. Welcome to the 21st.
JMHO(flame suit on)
<< <i>I guess the pcgs "shield" on their insert is meant to combat the caci sticker. And you thought it was bad when there was an 11 point span from ms60 to ms70 and now there are 18 grades (no 61 plus or 62 plus) I can just see people arguing over which is nicer, this 63 plus or that 64. Altogether a big disapoint that didn't "rock my world". I thought for sure they would go to details grading. buffnixx >>
I think you meant "no 60 plus or 61 plus".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In creating this + sign category, imo this now makes a PCGS 64+ coin probably fairly comparable to a low end NGC 65. It will invite direct comparison from sharp coin buyers which may have been one of the original thoughts in creating this new program. The low end NGC coins are now getting squeezed by CAC on the high end, and by + on the other end. It's possible that a P64+ CAC coin could start bringing as much or more than a low end N65. In which case it will drum up more business for CAC and PCGS....less for NGC. I suspect a counter move from NGC on this one as the * will no longer cut it alone.
roadrunner
<< <i> I suspect a counter move from NGC on this one as the * will no longer cut it alone.
roadrunner >>
NGC will offer "+" grades as well -- it appears this was coordinated with PCGS.
Link to NGC Announcement