The Big Let Down

soty27 · March 25, 2010 2:33AM

As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down.

chucknra · March 25, 2010 2:35AM

If it's just a + grading system and high-end stuff then it is very frustrating.

soty27 · March 25, 2010 2:37AM

Yes I couldnt agree more and the bummer is thats all it was, or at least thats all I think it is so far.

chucknra · March 25, 2010 2:43AM

doh · March 25, 2010 2:45AM

There HAS to be more. Nothing they've said so far has been revolutionary or even close to it. Plus sign? Kinda cool I guess, but not "Big" and the $100K thing, WTH cares? That affects, what, maybe .001% of the coins out there?

coinguy1 · March 25, 2010 2:46AM

<< As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>

Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them.

soty27 · March 25, 2010 2:51AM

<< 

<< As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>

Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them. >>

I do have facts that I am basing that on Mark!!!

coinguy1 · March 25, 2010 2:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>

Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them. >>

I do have facts that I am basing that on Mark!!! >>

Do you have all of them? If so, let's see it.

renomedphys · March 25, 2010 2:55AM

So far, there's just word of mouth from attendees.

soty27 · March 25, 2010 2:55AM

My facts are based off of a few phone calls I made this morning after talking to another forum member here and hearing the news was out. From what I have found out IMO its a huge let down, unless they are doing something more than what Ive heard.

JCMhouston · March 25, 2010 2:56AM

It's not sounding big from the people in the room.

chucknra · March 25, 2010 2:56AM

Have you heard anything other than what has been discussed already??

kryptonitecomics · March 25, 2010 2:57AM

I heard Mark know's but he isn't telling....

BBN · March 25, 2010 2:58AM

I thought that there were three announcements. The curtain has a slab behind it. Once again, could we see a new slab?

PCcoins · March 25, 2010 2:59AM

I figured pcgs would try to do something similar to ngc with it's Star* designation. Because many people will resend their coins too ngc for a designation view if they believe their coin could get the STAR* designation, which makes more money for the grading company so it made sense at a business standpoint to do this.

So will pcgs + designation be for "eye appeal" or 1 sided cameo/deep cameo. Or will it be used just for coins that are almost to the next grade level or PQ?

keets · March 25, 2010 2:59AM

If you are sitting in the room listening to the announcement does that count as "fact"? Or do you need to know some secret handshake so you can interpret the "facts"?

i'm gonna go with the handshake.

renomedphys · March 25, 2010 2:59AM

Whatever it is... here it comes!

PCcoins · March 25, 2010 3:01AM

The curtain does have a slab behind it, I just hope it isn't white

tahoe98 · March 25, 2010 3:02AM

<< 

<< 

<< As predicted the Big one is a Big Let down. >>

Do you have facts upon which you are basing that? if so, I haven't seen them. >>

I do have facts that I am basing that on Mark!!! >>

....could those facts be from MSNBC?

relicsncoins · March 25, 2010 3:07AM

According to an interview with Don, whatever the big one is, it will revolutionize coin grading.

coinguy1 · March 25, 2010 3:11AM

<< My facts are based off of a few phone calls I made this morning after talking to another forum member here and hearing the news was out. From what I have found out IMO its a huge let down, unless they are doing something more than what Ive heard. >>

Well, personally, I think the facts below potentially make your talk of "The Big Let Down", how should I say this?, a big let down.

"NEWPORT BEACH, Calif., March 25 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Collectors Universe, Inc. (CLCT:$10.57,00$0.19,001.83%) , a leading provider of value-added authentication and grading services to dealers and collectors of high-value collectibles, today announced that its coin division, Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), has launched PCGS Secure Plusâ„¢, a new high-tech grading process that has been designed to increase the confidence of collectors and dealers, and has introduced a new grade designation that potentially can increase the value of selected coins.
The PCGS Secure Plus process uses laser scanning to help detect coins that have been artificially enhanced since their last certification and can also be used to help identify stolen coins. Â Additionally, PCGS can now designate deserving, superior-quality coins as "Plus" within their respective grades, an important distinction when there are big differences in value between one grade point and the next.
Developed after extensive software and hardware development and testing in partnership with Coinsecure, Inc. of Palo Alto, California, the PCGS Secure Plus service digitally captures a unique "fingerprint" of each coin that is then entered into a permanent database.
"PCGS Secure Plus will introduce a new level of confidence and security in the coin collecting market," said PCGS President Don Willis. "We believe that PCGS Secure Plus addresses several of the leading issues affecting the industry today. Â PCGS Secure Plus is a patent-pending process, wherein a coin is laser scanned, imaged and registered in a permanent database. Â Every coin has its own identifying characteristics. Â Coins are like snowflakes at the micron level; they are very different from each other. Â If a coin has been previously registered in our database using the Secure Plus process, it will be identified whenever it's again scanned by us, making it possible to detect enhancements that may have been made since the coin was last registered with us.
"PCGS Secure Plus is an innovative service that also addresses the significant price gaps between one grade point and the next, by formally recognizing high-end specimens within respective grades," said David Hall, Co-Founder of PCGS and President of Collectors Universe (CLCT:$10.57,00$0.19,001.83%) . Â "The reality of the marketplace is that coins considered high end for the grade are recognized by sophisticated dealers and collectors, and such coins are worth a premium in the marketplace. The term 'plus' has been a part of the everyday trading and grading lingo for years. Â The high end for any particular grade represents the top 30% of the scale within a grade, and we estimate that the 'plus' designation would apply to approximately 15% to 20% of the coins within a grade. Â Those technically superior coins in the high end for their grade will now have a plus sign (+) on their PCGS insert label."
PCGS Secure Plus is being offered as a separate, new service. Â All existing PCGS services will continue to be offered without change except for Rarities and Ultra Rarities, which will only be offered with the PCGS Secure Plus service. Â Initially, PCGS Secure Plus will be offered for higher value services only for raw coins, re-grades and re-holders.
For additional information, visit us at www.PCGS.com.
About Collectors Universe (CLCT:$10.57,00$0.19,001.83%)
Collectors Universe, Inc. (CLCT:$10.57,00$0.19,001.83%) is a leading provider of value added services to the high-value collectibles markets. Â The Company authenticates and grades collectible coins, sports cards, autographs and stamps. The Company also compiles and publishes authoritative information about United States and world coins, collectible trading cards and sports memorabilia and collectible stamps and operates its CCE dealer-to-dealer Internet bid-ask market for certified coins and its Expos trade show and conventions business. This information is accessible to collectors and dealers at the Company's web site, http://www.collectors.com, and is also published in print.
Cautionary Statements Regarding Forward-Looking Information
This news release contains statements regarding our expectations, beliefs or views about our future financial performance and trends in our business and in our markets, which constitute "forward-looking statements" as defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Forward-looking statements can often be identified by the use of words such as "believe," "expect," "anticipate," "intend," "plan," "estimate," "project," or future or conditional verbs such as "will," "would," "should," "could," or "may."
Due to a number of risks and uncertainties to which our business is subject, our future financial performance may differ, possibly significantly, from our expected financial performance as set forth in the forward-looking statements contained in this news release. Â Information regarding those risks and uncertainties, and their possible impact on our future financial performance, include, but are not limited to, our continued and increased dependence on our coin business which generated 63% of our consolidated revenues and substantially all of our operating income in the first half of the year, the risk that economic conditions in the United States will not improve for some time and may even deteriorate further, which could result in reductions in the demand for our collectible grading services and, consequently, in our revenues; the risk that the current economic recession and credit crisis will lead to longer term changes in the spending habits of consumers and in the availability and use of credit by smaller businesses, such as collectibles dealers, to fund purchases of collectibles, which could lead to longer term declines in collectibles commerce and, therefore, in the demand for our services; the risk that our strategy to offer new services in our continuing collectibles markets will not be successful in enabling us to improve our profitability or may even cause us to incur significant losses; and the risk that the commercial real estate market in New York City will deteriorate further, in which case we may not be able to sublease the offices and laboratory facilities in New York City formerly occupied by our jewelry businesses within the time periods and for the rents currently expected, which would cause our net rental payment obligations to be significantly higher than currently expected leading to reductions in cash flows and additional losses from discontinued operations in future periods.
Additional information regarding these risks and information regarding other risks and uncertainties to which our business is subject is contained in our Annual Report on Form 10-K for our fiscal year ended June 30, 2009 and our Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q for the second quarter ended December 31, 2009 filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on February 9, 2010. Â Due to these risks and uncertainties, readers are cautioned not to place undue reliance on the forward-looking statements contained in this news release or in our Annual or Quarterly Reports, which speak only as of their respective dates. We also disclaim any obligation to update or revise any of the forward-looking statements as a result of new information, future events or otherwise, except as may be required by law or NASDAQ rules. "

soty27 · March 25, 2010 3:15AM

You are about a day late and a dollar short Mark. This isn't breaking news just now, you would have thought you could have made a phone call quite some time ago and found this out. If its not a let down to you then so be it but to me it is.

kryptonitecomics · March 25, 2010 3:15AM

For some this may not be a let down but frankly for the average collectors.....I see absolutely no change. Obviously this is going to be a more expensive service and I for one don't have expensive coins that would benifit from being lazer scanned. So since I don't expect to see MS63 common date toners in secure plus holders.....it was a big let down for me.

smokincoin · March 25, 2010 3:16AM

It leaked here yesterday!

illini420 · March 25, 2010 3:17AM

not sure how big this really is, but i hope we get the official word on how this could ever be seen as big as when PCGS started grading in '86??? i just don't see it.

ziggy29 · March 25, 2010 3:17AM

<< "The reality of the marketplace is that coins considered high end for the grade are recognized by sophisticated dealers and collectors, and such coins are worth a premium in the marketplace. >>

Not meaning to be a smart-aleck or anything, but if the marketplace already recognizes the premium for a so-called "PQ" coin for the grade, what exactly is the need to put it on the label? If they are going to do this, it makes just as much (if not more) sense to introduce grades like AU-61 through AU-63 for supersliders that regularly sell for MS money even in an AU-55 or AU-58 holder.

chucknra · March 25, 2010 3:19AM

total letdown

renomedphys · March 25, 2010 3:19AM

Re: Mark's statements: Where is the part in the statement that is more than what we heard? It looks like more fancy words, but still says the same thing.

I'm going to the B&M today to ask what they think. I'm sure the answer will be, "Huh?"

coinguy1 · March 25, 2010 3:24AM

<< You are about a day late and a dollar short Mark. This isn't breaking news just now, you would have thought you could have made a phone call quite some time ago and found this out. If its not a let down to you then so be it but to me it is. >>

I didn't need to make a phone call to find out what the news was. And I prefer to work with first hand facts over second or third hand information.

JCMhouston · March 25, 2010 3:27AM

<< Well, personally, I think the facts below potentially make your talk of "The Big Let Down", how should I say this?, a big let down >>

Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is the most hyped non-event in the recent history of coin collecting. It may get a few people on kool-aid to resubmit hoping to get a +, but think how disappointed they will be when it gets a -. I still can't use them for any copper submissions.

soty27 · March 25, 2010 3:28AM

<< 

<< You are about a day late and a dollar short Mark. This isn't breaking news just now, you would have thought you could have made a phone call quite some time ago and found this out. If its not a let down to you then so be it but to me it is. >>

I didn't need to make a phone call to find out what the news was. And I prefer to work with first hand facts over second or third hand information. >>

I dont really feel talking to someone in the room at the time was bad information.

coinguy1 · March 25, 2010 3:34AM

<< 

<< Well, personally, I think the facts below potentially make your talk of "The Big Let Down", how should I say this?, a big let down >>

Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is the most hyped non-event in the recent history of coin collecting. It may get a few people on kool-aid to resubmit hoping to get a +, but think how disappointed they will be when it gets a -. I still can't use them for any copper submissions. >>

You and a number of other posters sound as if you are focusing almost entirely on the + designation. I care a lot more about this part: "The PCGS Secure Plus process uses laser scanning to help detect coins that have been artificially enhanced since their last certification and can also be used to help identify stolen coins."

botanist · March 25, 2010 3:40AM

Am I missing something here, or is this only going to have a noticeable effect on classic high-value rarities with low populations? And as far as detecting stolen coins of that kind, it'll only work if the booty was being properly handled by the thieves, but if instead the loot is cracked out and mishandled a little, it becomes unrecognizable? I was left in the lurch.

illini420 · March 25, 2010 3:52AM

i guess i don't get the Secure Plus part of it yet, but doesn't it just mean theives or coin doctors won't mess with coins with the shield on the label?? and if they decide to do so, they can just crack the coin and submit it to another company, right??

ziggy29 · March 25, 2010 3:55AM

<< i guess i don't get the Secure Plus part of it yet, but doesn't it just mean theives or coin doctors won't mess with coins with the shield on the label?? and if they decide to do so, they can just crack the coin and submit it to another company, right?? >>

Sure, but just not back to PCGS.

northcoin · March 25, 2010 3:57AM

>>

This is the most hyped non-event in the recent history of coin collecting. It may get a few people on kool-aid to resubmit hoping to get a +, but think how disappointed they will be when it gets a -. I still can't use them for any copper submissions. >>

Don't worry. There will likely be a sequel announcement that will even trump this one. I can't wait for confirmation that when we send coins in for photo imaging they will be viewable in 3D on the new 3D TVs that are revolutionizing the TV markets.

ziggy29 · March 25, 2010 4:01AM

<< Sorry, but I have to disagree. This is the most hyped non-event in the recent history of coin collecting. It may get a few people on kool-aid to resubmit hoping to get a +, but think how disappointed they will be when it gets a -. I still can't use them for any copper submissions. >>

Where have you seen anything about a "minus" designation? I'm not seeing it. All I've seen and heard from HRH's video announcement (which loads about 10 seconds of video every 5 minutes right now) indicates that it's just a '+' for the ones that just miss the next higher grade. So if a coin was designated 64.0 to 64.6 it would get a 64 designation, and if it were 64.7 to 64.9 it would be 64+.

cmerlo1 · March 25, 2010 4:16AM

Doesn't affect me at all...

PerryHall · March 25, 2010 4:38AM

Maybe there should be a poll asking if the so called big one is a big let down or not except that once everyone sees how lopsided the results are, it would be poofed by the mods.

TrustNo1 · March 25, 2010 4:50AM

so its hyped for months and when people comment that they are let down they get grilled LOL

DieClash · March 25, 2010 4:52AM

Coin "finger-printing" is a huge deal. A technological breakthrough, IMHO. This is "The Big One". While I agree that the new SP will be a much more expesive service than the standard service, which I don't use anyway; just the fact that the coin's fingerprint can be stored in a database for comparison with later resubmissions, is going to affect the coin market from this point forward. Even if only the most expensive and rarest of coins are included in the database initially; over the long-run the coin-price threshold for candidate coin-lasering will trend lower over time.

While many of us average coin-value collectors cannot see us using the new service, I beg to differ as to this being a big letdown. I would furth bet that at somepoint, the other major TPGs will offer a similar service. Putting the coin doctors and thieves out of business may not happen altogether, but it sure will be more difficult for them to pass off their ill-gotten or altered coins to PCGS in the future.

I for one, welcome the change.

lkeigwin · March 25, 2010 5:11AM

I welcome the change too.

But I think counterfeits represent a bigger threat to the hobby of coin collecting than gradeflation. And I am sorely disappointed that little, if anything, in the big one addresses it.
Lance.

ocon4008 · March 25, 2010 5:25AM

More resistance to change; this technology is revolutionary. Just because you do not understand it yet does not make it less so. I have said it before and I will say it again now: this will help take some of the subjectivity out of coin grading.

kryptonitecomics · March 25, 2010 5:28AM

<< More resistance to change; this technology is revolutionary. Just because you do not understand it yet does not make it less so. I have said it before and I will say it again now: this will help take some of the subjectivity out of coin grading.

>>

How so....PCGS did not annouce that the laser is grading the coin...only taking a fingerprint of the coin if you will.....I think you missed the purpose of the laser as it's designed to stop coin doctoring not revolutinize coin grading?

ocon4008 · March 25, 2010 5:36AM

<<How so....PCGS did not annouce that the laser is grading the coin...only taking a fingerprint of the coin if you will.....I think you missed the purpose of the laser as it's designed to stop coin doctoring not revolutinize coin grading? >>

They will find other uses for this technology; comparing the detail terrain models created by this technology to a standard set will allow the computer to assign a technical grade to the coin as well. Then finalized by a human for the subjective part of the grading.

DIMEMAN · March 25, 2010 5:40AM

You people out there saying "this does not effect me"....better think again. In the future coins not in the new holders with the plus will be looked on as inferior.

What the he!! happened to the day that you looked at the coin to determine how nice it was instead of all the garbage added to the grade or stickers or stars or whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just shoot me and put me out of my misery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

droopyd · March 25, 2010 5:42AM

<< You people out there saying "this does not effect me"....better think again. In the future coins not in the new holders with the plus will be looked on as inferior. >>

Since they're not putting coins worth less than $3000 in the new holder, this won't affect 90%+ of collectors.

roadrunner · March 25, 2010 6:53AM

Instead of screwing with one $10,000 coin, the coin docs will have to live with messing with 5 - $2,000 coins to make a living. I think they can make that adjustment considering the vast majority of the coins graded fall in the under $3,000 category. By doing more coins they should ramp up their skill level as they shift to volume production. Ultimately it means shifting the doctoring problem down towards the level where more collectors live.

It remains to be seen if a laser can detect artificially enhanced surfaces on the first submission. Unless it can differentiate between AT and NT coins there will be a big void.

So if a coin was designated 64.0 to 64.6 it would get a 64 designation, and if it were 64.7 to 64.9 it would be 64+.

This is like playing Let's Make A Deal with door #1, #2 and #3. You have 3 coins, one is a dreck 65.0, another is an ok 65.4, and the 3rd is a pq 65.7. The coin behind door #3 just got assigned a "+." It's value is now known to be higher than the posted sheet prices. But the coins behind the other 2 doors have not been "plus" reviewed. Don't you think the price of 65.4 will be affected by the fact that's in the same pool as the 65.0? Until the 65.4 is further delineated somehow (CAC for example) it will be priced between a 65.0 and a 65.4. Part of the gain in price of the 65.7 came from the unstickered and still unlabeled 65.4.

roadrunner

pmac · March 25, 2010 7:01AM

<< 

<< "The reality of the marketplace is that coins considered high end for the grade are recognized by sophisticated dealers and collectors, and such coins are worth a premium in the marketplace. >>

Not meaning to be a smart-aleck or anything, but if the marketplace already recognizes the premium for a so-called "PQ" coin for the grade, what exactly is the need to put it on the label? If they are going to do this, it makes just as much (if not more) sense to introduce grades like AU-61 through AU-63 for supersliders that regularly sell for MS money even in an AU-55 or AU-58 holder. >>

I don't understand what you're saying. PQ seems to be a designation that dealers give a coin, very subjective. CAC and + are affixed by an unbiased appraiser (hopefully). Off the subject, NGC's * is an evaluation of eye appeal, not PQ.
I think the steps that PCGS have made are answers to problems that have been expressed on this forum. Many of the UpperCrust collectors will avail themselves to these services. I would guess within a year, PCGS will make these services affordable to us, the "hoi polloi". Otherwise, PCGS will wither on the vine, without the middle-class money.

ChrisRx · March 25, 2010 7:06AM

Mark is a coin dealer he HAS to dig the koolaid or get out of the business.

I am a collector and agree with the disappointment that the OP is expressing.

This is all overwhelming and seems to have no end.

leothelyon · March 25, 2010 10:23AM

<< Doesn't affect me at all... >>

cmerlo1+

Leo

The Big Let Down

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