black NGC slab sells for $2,675,

oreville · March 22, 2010 3:54AM

It was a 1922 Saint in MS-62.

chucknra · March 22, 2010 3:55AM

no linkety-link??

braddick · March 22, 2010 3:58AM

I think it was the Saint in MS63 or 62 (?). If so, that not so bad a price (although the slab itself had ever so slight damage).

Walmann · March 22, 2010 3:59AM

Brings the question to mind if "The Big One(s)" on the 25th results in numerous coins being reholdered how this will impact the prices of coins in older/less common holders.

Will the premium on doilies go up even more, or will those coins in those older holders just remain in those holders, and hence unaffected, due to the fact of their current "collectibility"?

Would massive reholdering result eventually in premiums for some of the currently common holders?

robkool · March 22, 2010 4:03AM

I believe there was a link on this piece from a member in the BST...

kryptonitecomics · March 22, 2010 4:07AM

I'd say that was a pretty good price considering I have seen common date Morgans go for $4000 in these holders.....in this case you get a $20 saint....score!!!!

oreville · March 22, 2010 4:08AM

Brings the question to mind if "The Big One(s)" on the 25th results in numerous coins being reholdered how this will impact the prices of coins in older/less common holders.

Will the premium on doilies go up even more, or will those coins in those older holders just remain in those holders, and hence unaffected, due to the fact of their current "collectibility"?

Would massive reholdering result eventually in premiums for some of the currently common holders?

First question:
<<<<<<Will the premium on doilies go up even more, or will those coins in those older holders just remain in those holders, and hence unaffected, due to the fact of their current "collectibility"?>>>>>>
those coins in those older holders just remain in those holders, and hence unaffected, due to the fact of their current "collectibility"

Second question:
<<<<<<Would massive reholdering result eventually in premiums for some of the currently common holders? >>>>
That is always possible. But hard to predict which ones. Also it is always best to keep the really cheap slabs as they do best.

coinguy1 · March 22, 2010 4:10AM

<< I'd say that was a pretty good price considering I have seen common date Morgans go for $4000 in these holders.....in this case you get a $20 saint....score!!!! >>

Perhaps on a relative basis, or maybe the buyers of the Morgans were scored upon

It was still $1000+ for a holder, which appears to have nothing to do with the quality of the coin contained therein.

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 4:20AM

Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab.

kryptonitecomics · March 22, 2010 4:23AM

<< 

<< I'd say that was a pretty good price considering I have seen common date Morgans go for $4000 in these holders.....in this case you get a $20 saint....score!!!! >>

Perhaps on a relative basis, or maybe the buyers of the Morgans were scored upon

It was still $1000+ for a holder, which appears to have nothing to do with the quality of the coin contained therein. >>

No price is too high for us Plastic collectors......

It's all relative though.....if folks will pay $4000 for a coin worth $100 in a black slab then as black slab buying goes....getting an MS62 saint for $2650 has to be the score of a liftime

Batman23 · March 22, 2010 4:42AM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

That is interesting

You did not write down the cert number on that empty slab by and chance did you?

oreville · March 22, 2010 5:00AM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

Agreed that is an issue. I was not focused on this. I will check if it is possible that the coin was put in backwards by mistake.
The certificate number can tell us if it was during the white holder period. I will check on this.

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 5:06AM

<< 

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

That is interesting

You did not write down the cert number on that empty slab by and chance did you? >>

No, but I should have. I'd be willing to bet this was an empty shell from a crackout and someone added a coin and glued it back together. Like I said before, they put the coin in backwards. When NGC started slabbing coins, some marketing genius decided the logo should be on the front with the label on the back. Of course, there were a lot of complaints since dealers and collectors wanted the label on the front with the date, grade, mintmark, etc visible when the slab is laying in a display case. NGC made this change on all subsequent generations of slabs.

Walmann · March 22, 2010 5:08AM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

If this is correct then the buyer is already backwards on this purchase.

Batman23 · March 22, 2010 5:10AM

<< 

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

Agreed that is an issue. I was not focused on this. I will check if it is possible that the coin was put in backwards by mistake.
The certificate number can tell us if it was during the white holder period. I will check on this. >>

PerryHall stated that the insert was with the black slab and for an MS62 Saint. This insert was probably the original insert for that black slab. The question is whether this is the empty slab PerryHall described (just refilled) or a different and original slab.

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 5:14AM

<< 

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

Agreed that is an issue. I was not focused on this. I will check if it is possible that the coin was put in backwards by mistake.
The certificate number can tell us if it was during the white holder period. I will check on this. >>

No. That's a real first generation Black NGC slab. You can see from the damage on the botton of the slab that someone cracked out the original coin. For some reason they saved the empty slab and someone later reused it due to the greatly increased value of these rare slabs. I sent Conder101 a PM on the NGC forum to get his opinion.

CIVITAS · March 22, 2010 6:46AM

As the seller, I would certainly like to know if this is modified before I ship it so I can inform the buyer and give him the chance to opt out.

The PayPal transaction is currently under fraud review anyway, so there's a little time. I can provide more pics if needed.

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 22, 2010 7:58AM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

Good catch, Perry Hall. We have handled several of these over the years (incl. going back to 1987, when they were "current"!). I have never seen one where the coin wasn't "backwards" in the holder.

That isn't to say there were none made, just that I have never seen one.

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 9:40AM

<< I have cracked alot of slabs none have ever looked that good, however I never tried to do a perfectly clean crack out to save the slab.

I don't understand why someone would crack a ms62 coin out of a holder that is worth than the coin. >>

The first generation Black NGC slabs didn't always carry the big premiums that they do now. When the second generation slabs came out in the late 1980's, many people sent their black slabs in to be reholdered which is why they subsequently became so rare. Also, the coins in these early holders were frequently undergraded and were subsequently cracked out and resubmitted in the hopes of getting a higher grade.

oreville · March 22, 2010 11:51AM

This is a very early 2nd generation all white NGC slab. Most of them range from 121xxx-xxx to 125xxx-xxx or so. By 126xxx-xxx (plus or minus) or so they went to the labels showing the NGC scales.

Note that the certificate # 121781-001 is AFTER the black NGC slab certificate # 121165-016. But it is very very close numerically. More investigation is needed.

gsaguy · March 22, 2010 11:54AM

Cool! I wonder if the old PCGS Regency holders will ever bring a premium?

speety · March 22, 2010 11:59AM

Oreville, is this the next model then?

oreville · March 22, 2010 12:00PM

coinkid855 owns this all white slab. We are getting closer to the break point between the NGC black slab certificate number and the all white NGC slab ceretificate number.

speety · March 22, 2010 12:01PM

Haha I just realized both coins are MS66 trimes... ironic...

oreville · March 22, 2010 12:04PM

speety: Yes. There are two kinds of all white slabs. The first one was with the NGC gold foil on the INSIDE of the outer plastic housing and the 2nd is the NGC gold foil on the OUTSIDE.

You know that the slab you have first came with the NGC gold foil on the outside reverse and then came with the wide hologram.

speety · March 22, 2010 12:11PM

Yes, this one has it on the outside, the first time I felt it I was like "What the heck is this on the slab?" lol

oreville · March 22, 2010 12:21PM

I own these below listed white NGC slabs. The 121196-005 ( 1927 $20 Saint) is STILL AFTER the black NGC slab certificate # 121165-016. But it is very very close numerically. Still more investigation is needed.

1884 3CN PF-65 #121417-001
1871 H10 MS-63 #121732-008
1931-S 05c MS-65 #121758-002
1916-D 25C MS-63 #121781-012
1943 50C MS-64 #121781-016
1925-D 2.5 MS-63 #124711-022
1927 $20 MS-61 #121196-005
1865 3CN MS-62 #121871-001
1889 G$1 MS-61 #122401-025
1942 10C PF-45 #124087-010

robkool · March 22, 2010 12:26PM

<< I have cracked alot of slabs none have ever looked that good, however I never tried to do a perfectly clean crack out to save the slab.

I don't understand why someone would crack a ms62 coin out of a holder that is worth than the coin. >>

I was able to do one on an ASE proof $ to be crossed into PCGS...

oreville · March 22, 2010 12:28PM

Uh oh,

I am aware of the existence of this all white slab. I have seen it.

1859 3CS MS-63 #121090-008

It is BEFORE the black NGC slab certificate # 121165-016. About 75 separate submissions apart. I will find out if there were any intermixing of the remaining black and all white NGC in the space of a day or so.

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 9:21PM

<< Cool! I wonder if the old PCGS Regency holders will ever bring a premium? >>

They already do bring a premium.

morgansforever · March 22, 2010 9:31PM

Bought this a few months ago, for $40 on Ebid. I was the only bidder.
I'm partial to the old NGC holders, it has a cool look. It may be a 4 today, but not worth the time or trouble.
Plus it's been in the same state for 25 years + or -.
scott

EDIT: I believe I violated rule #7.

Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well.

kryptonitecomics · March 22, 2010 9:38PM

Here are two of the all white slabs that I either own or have owned in the case of the buffalo nickel. I think the theory that NGC was mixing slab inserts as they transitioned from the all black to the white is a sound theory, especially when we consider they are doing the same thing right now with the edgeview holders.

morgansforever · March 22, 2010 9:40PM

Cool slabs Krypto!

PerryHall · March 22, 2010 10:15PM

The logos on the white slabs went to gold while the black slabs the logos were silver.

Broadstruck · March 22, 2010 10:58PM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

I just checked the archives as I thought I had posted images of the slab as it was a MS62 1922... Sorry no pics

Tuesday April 08, 2008 4:58 PM

Last year there was a cracked out empty black ngc holder on Ebay for a ask of $800... the keyword is EMPTY!

CIVITAS · March 23, 2010 2:50AM

<< 

<< As the seller, I would certainly like to know if this is modified before I ship it so I can inform the buyer and give him the chance to opt out.

The PayPal transaction is currently under fraud review anyway, so there's a little time. I can provide more pics if needed. >>

Does the slab look like it was messed with? >>

Nothing really looks out of sorts. If someone did crack and reseal this, they did an amazing job. One that's so good, I don't see why they'd go through all the effort to perfectly crack/cut the slab precisely at the seam, remove another coin to upgrade it one or two points and THEN take the effort to put a new coin in and expertly seal it only to screw up the final detail of the coin's orientation.

But then again, people do stupid things.

CIVITAS · March 23, 2010 2:52AM

<< Uh oh,

I am aware of the existence of this all white slab. I have seen it.

1859 3CS MS-63 #121090-008

It is BEFORE the black NGC slab certificate # 121165-016. About 75 separate submissions apart. I will find out if there were any intermixing of the remaining black and all white NGC in the space of a day or so. >>

If NGC operated the way they do now, back in the day, their invoices are prenumbered and the serial #s are made to match. I currently have NGC forms sitting in my shop that I've had for over a year. The sequence of serial #s will be less than perfect if the same was true in 1987/88/89 etc.

CIVITAS · March 23, 2010 3:07AM

Just popped the seam with my fingernail.

Absolutely resealed.

Nice catch guys.

PerryHall · March 23, 2010 3:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< As the seller, I would certainly like to know if this is modified before I ship it so I can inform the buyer and give him the chance to opt out.

The PayPal transaction is currently under fraud review anyway, so there's a little time. I can provide more pics if needed. >>

Does the slab look like it was messed with? >>

Nothing really looks out of sorts. If someone did crack and reseal this, they did an amazing job. One that's so good, I don't see why they'd go through all the effort to perfectly crack/cut the slab precisely at the seam, remove another coin to upgrade it one or two points and THEN take the effort to put a new coin in and expertly seal it only to screw up the final detail of the coin's orientation.

But then again, people do stupid things. >>

You can see damage at the bottom of the slab in your pics. These older "no line fatty" slabs would frequently crack along the seams when you put them in a vice and slowly squeeze them. Someone removed the original coin which was probably undergraded and then saved the slab for novelty reasons. Later they likely sold the empty slab on eBay. I remember an empty first generation black NGC slab selling on eBay a couple of years ago that originally housed an MS62 1922 Saint. This slab is in all likelyhood that same slab. When someone used that slab to house another MS62, they were unaware that the logo on these first generation Black NGC slabs were on the front with the label on the back and they resealed this coin backwards. Also, the coin in this probably resealed/reused slab looks at best to be a scuffy 61.

Edited to add that I'm glad to see that what I've been saying has been confirmed but I'm sorry that you got burned on a bad slab. Can you get your money back from the person who sold you this recycled slab?

CIVITAS · March 23, 2010 3:21AM

<< Uh oh,

I am aware of the existence of this all white slab. I have seen it.

1859 3CS MS-63 #121090-008

It is BEFORE the black NGC slab certificate # 121165-016. About 75 separate submissions apart. I will find out if there were any intermixing of the remaining black and all white NGC in the space of a day or so. >>

FWIW: The two black slabs I could find on Heritage have #s 121625-018 and 121501-001.

CIVITAS · March 23, 2010 3:31AM

<< 
Edited to add that I'm glad to see that what I've been saying has been confirmed but I'm sorry that you got burned on a bad slab. Can you get your money back from the person who sold you this recycled slab? >>

No, I bought it from a collector OTC with a number of other coins. I think he got burned on it too (i.e. he didn't do the reseal job). He told me what he wanted for it specifically, and it was a premium price, but not outrageous so I paid it. But gold prices have risen up enough since then, that if I lose on the coin/slab, it probably won't be much. I'll eat it. Part of doing business.

kryptonitecomics · March 23, 2010 3:45AM

not good but better to find out now

nencoin · March 23, 2010 3:52AM

<< Someone messed with that slab. The black NGC slab that I own and all the others that I have seen had the label on the back with the NGC logo on the front which is just the opposite of this coin. A few years ago someone sold on eBay an empty shell and insert of an black NGC slab for an MS62 1922 Saint with slight damage to the lower edge where the coin had been cracked out. I was tempted to buy it and put a 1922 Saint inside and to glue the shell to get an example of this illusive slab but when bidding for the empty shell got over $200, I stopped bidding. This slab may be the same one. Subsequently I was able to buy an original copy of this rare slab. >>

Great work, PerryHall!

black NGC slab sells for $2,675,

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