Options
US-PI Collectors, is this a genuine 1906-S Peso?
IloiloKano
Posts: 1,051
It's out of my price range, but if it's genuine, then the starting bid of $2,800.00 seems reasonable, especially with book values for genuine examples EF to AU running $3,250 to $8,000 ... and up.
So unless this is a cast counterfeit of a genuine 1906-S Peso, I would have to conclude it is probably genuine.
Full Disclosure: I know and have made several purchases from eBay seller bonjovi777hawk, and I consider him to be an honest dealer.
What do others think? Counterfeit or Genuine?
For anyone who may be interested, here's the ebay link.
- Straight Serif 1 - Check
- Top inside loop of 0 almost straight to right corner - Seems to be - Check
- Bottom inside loop of 0 smoothly curved - Seems to be - Check
- 6 and 9 are slightly different - Seems to be - Check
- Knob on 6 more oval, knob on 9 more round - Seems to be - Check
- Loop at middle of 6 thinner than on 9 - Seems to be - Check
- 13 denticles from directly below middle of 1 to directly below middle of 6 - Check
- Denticle below 6 is perpendicular to both top and bottom inside openings - Check
So unless this is a cast counterfeit of a genuine 1906-S Peso, I would have to conclude it is probably genuine.
Full Disclosure: I know and have made several purchases from eBay seller bonjovi777hawk, and I consider him to be an honest dealer.
What do others think? Counterfeit or Genuine?
For anyone who may be interested, here's the ebay link.
0
Comments
If your diagnostics are in line, if you trust the dealer and his reputation, what is there in your internal
warning system that makes you worried about this one?
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
So where's JHF? I bet he has a roll of these in 68
My wantlist & references
<< <i>what is there in your internal warning system that makes you worried about this one? >>
For every genuine 1906-S Peso there are more than a hundred counterfeits. It is the most counterfeited coin in all denominations of US-PI coinage.
<< <i>So where's JHF? I bet he has a roll of these in 68 >>
No, there is not even one example in Choice, let alone Gem++ condition. In the combined population report, (ANACS, NGC & PCGS), there are 2 finest known is MS62, with only a handful more in MS60 and MS61. Of the 201,000 minted, nearly all were held back from use due to rapidly rising silver prices.
Of those that got into circulation, many were melted for silver content, as the coin by law was valued with a 2 pesos for 1 dollar ratio, and it contained the same amount of silver as the US silver dollar. It is now believed there are less than a hundred 1906-S Pesos still in existence, with most surviving examples having been harshly cleaned by later collectors. One collector in particular sought out every example he could find in the 50's and 'cleaned' most of them.
Less than 20% of all 1903-1906 US-PI silver coinage has survived the Great Silver Melt of the period, so mintage figures are nearly meaningless in terms of true scarcity, and the 1906-S Peso's mintage figure is the farthest off base. The 1905-S Straight Serif may be the next rarest, with only one Choice (MS63) example known, which JHF owns; however, his 1906-S Peso is MS61, with both of the MS62's in other hands.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=3010&Lot_No=21708
Does anyone else see a curved serif on the "1" here?
I have heard much in praise of Heritage for reliability, but I have to wonder here. I have contacted Heritage about this.
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
To me it looks suspicious
From Heritages pictures.---- In one photo The serif on the "1" looks curved and short a little to me and the top of the "0"
looks too rounded and the loop on the "9" does not look tight enough. I see enough uncertainty
on this raw piece to be concerned. I have seen shaved and shortened serif's on 06's before and Such smooth/ lightened cleaning can hide any reminents of work done on the "1" and the "6".
Better this be in a PCGS or NGC genuine holder than raw, and why isn't it?.
I would be much more comfortable with in a genuine holder for that money.
Krueger
I've been checking in on the message boards from time to time to see if there were any threads about the US Philippines (or Thai) coins, but this is the first one I've seen in a long while. Funny, because the price action on the US PHilippines has been strong. I bid 5 times estimate on a nice coin -- and lost it. Anyway, to the 1906-S
First, unfortunately the pic didn't print on my screen, so I can't make an intelligent comment on the coin itself.
Second, in my experience the dealer is a reasonable person and I've had good experience with him in the past.
Third, when I'm buying an expensive raw coin, especially in the Philippines and in the US Philippine series, I just make an offer contingent on it slabbing as genuine, and uncleaned. In other words, I tell the guy I'll submit the coin; if it clears as genuine in this grade, I'll pay "X". If it grades something higher, I'll pay "Y". I've never lost a purchase because of that.
Indeed, I got my 1903-S 50 centavo on that basis. I stared at that coin for literally hours and couldn't see anything the matter with it. Still, for the money asked -- well into 5 figures -- I told the guy I'd take the coin back to the states and try to have it slabbed. Etc. He accepted, it slabbed, and he got the money in a hurry.
With me, they know me well enough to know that payment isn't an issue. But I once purchased a Revolutionary era coin on that basis from a dealer who didn't know me. Mega-bucks again, so I asked one of my two top dealers (Warren Mills at Rare Coins of New Hampshire) to be the intermediary, and the sale sailed on through.
Fourth, it's essential that YOU be the submitter. Then the coin is your possession. If the other guy submits the coin and it slabs, it's tempting for him to shop the coin around a second time, this time as PCGS guaranteed genuine.
Fifth, there were two 1906-S MS 62s from PCGS. Both are nice, and I was negotiating through a dealer to buy BOTH. But the deal unfortunately fell through. Meanwhile, I have a very nice MS 62 from NGC, that I think will cross and maybe even make it to 63 (Oldddd slab). So I'm not hurting with my MS 61 from PCG
Sixth, keep in mind that the 06-S Peso and the 03-S 50 centavo are two of the most widely counterfeited coins in the world. And the counterfeiters are getting better and better.
About a year-and-a-half ago (maybe 2 years), I was in Manila, and a dealer walked in with an absolutely stunning Seated Liberty Half, I forget the year and mint mark, but I have it tucked away someplace. Finest known of a scarce date. A quarter of a million dollar coin.
I looked at the Philippine dealer, who is a good friend of mine, and said: "I'll buy it, and any other beauts like this for $90 each. They're great." I got a couple and sent one back to the states to be submitted to PCGS with a note stating that I was sure it was bogus. It was such a good counterfeit, they wanted t o keep it. So be careful.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun in Bangkok, and lots of it
<< <i> Better this be in a PCGS or NGC genuine holder than raw, and why isn't it?. >>
This too raised a big "???" for me.
<< <i>...make an offer contingent on it slabbing as genuine, and uncleaned. In other words, I tell the guy I'll submit the coin; if it clears as genuine in this grade, I'll pay "X". If it grades something higher, I'll pay "Y"... >>
Very sound advice. I would almost consider this for this Heritage item, were it not for the worrying indicators. I do not wish to cast aspersions on the dealer or auctioneer in this case; however, it is one thing to come across such a suspicious item on ebay, but for me it is both sobering and disappointing to find such an item (presented albeit raw, but as genuine) on a Heritage Auction, given its reputation.
I am thankful for this thread (and its contributors) for "keeping it real" when it matters.
I include a screen capture of the relevant detail. I hope I am not violating site copyright protocols by doing so.
I've been out of touch for some time, or I would have responded earlier.
Hey Justhavingfun, it's sure nice to see you back.