This is why you don't BUY RAW on eBay

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 3:35AM

Because too many raw coins turn out to be altered, problems, or just plain worse than their pictures..

I see so many eBay auctions of raw key date coins and semi keys selling for more.. I shake my head when I see this happening.

I mean, how can people not realize this?

Same thing goes for notes..

crazyhounddog · March 9, 2010 3:41AM

Some people think the coin will grade high....They're looking for a deal and it will never stop. I think there is an ocean of raw problem coins that float around from buyer to buyer that get submitted over & over again, keeps the grading companies very busy and happy.... But I still do buy raw, sometimes the coin just looks to good.....

bestmr · March 9, 2010 3:44AM

I only buy raw coins if I can get them at melt. I.E. silver ones. Other than that, no way.

doh · March 9, 2010 3:46AM

It's been said 1000 times and will probably be said 1000 more.

sinin1 · March 9, 2010 3:47AM

there are many sellers not to buy raw from

others who sell stuff that they have no clue about what they are or what they grade are still nice sellers to buy from

and you still need to do risk/reward probability analysis on every purchase

coinguy1 · March 9, 2010 3:56AM

Thoughts or dreams of a good deal, a great deal or a steal cloud (many) people's judgment. And causes them to take huge risks in trying to defy the very large odds against them.

airplanenut · March 9, 2010 4:15AM

<< I mean, how can people not realize this? >>

If people understood statistics, the lottery and casinos would go under immediately.

segoja · March 9, 2010 4:20AM

It's kind of like smoking....the cancer won't get me..look I'm healthy...until it's too late

As Jeremy points out, the stats will catch up to you

devious · March 9, 2010 4:25AM

bnb, people know this already, but for you, i purchased a cent lot that included 26 MS coins for 346 bucks. In that lot, I received 5 proof cents from 36-42. I made all my money back selling 4 of the proof cents plus a hundred bucks. I had the 1936 graded, it came back PR65RD. It was surely well worth my 346 dollar bid from a *very* horrible photo. I bought an Isabella for 850 from a seller who says "grandpa's collection" in every listing. Yet, he has a million coins, yeah okay. It was severely cleaned, and he refunded me a price difference of what I sold it for plus made right by sending me a ton of free graded anacs frankies. My experience buy raw has been like a 40% success rate on coins that would grade. Still good enough for me since I do not spend a lot on them and have come out ahead. It's a gamble, that is for sure. But it's one some of us are willing to take.

I should make note, the Isabella was the highest I'd ever spent on a raw coin on ebay. The pictures looked great, and this was when I was gullible and took the chance. The seller's feedback said nothing but great things about him and that chance...did not pay off, but he was really nice about refunding the difference [after I sold it raw and noted of it's problem on ebay] and then sending me more than a few hundred dollars in coins just to make up for it. This seller receives flack on these forums. It was before I arrived here and became better educated.

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 4:28AM

Sorry, but I cannot agree with the OP's statement at all. Having been a collector for 36 years and a dealer for half that time, I've purchased many raw coins on Ebay and have had pleasant surprises. Maybe, that's because I don't hold out HIGH hopes before receiving the coins and make sure that there is a return policy. This week, I received two purchases from two different sellers (foreign material) and scored big time based on the grades the actual coins are. Realizing that this post is on the US Forum is taken into consideration as I've had many more US purchases on Ebay (10 to 1) that were correctly graded problem free coins than cleaned and problem coins that needed to be returned. Just the observation of one person.

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 4:34AM

Sorry you feel that way but some people are just into the "thrill" of buying raw because of the excitement and suspense brought about by the "what if" factor.. "what if it's a 65RB" "what if it's this"...

I still stand strong by my belief that if the coin is so great, send it in to get certified and not only are you assuring people that the coin is real and has been reviewed by the experts in an age of internet/ebay fraud, but you may even get a little more money for it because of the slab.

bnb

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 5:24AM

Except for the fact that non everyone who sells a coin or two or twenty on Ebay is a collector or dealer with the 'knowhow' and unction to slab their coin(s). Your thinking is faulty. Look at Barndog's post and you will see a prime example of why the argument can be made (successfully, I might add) for the complete opposite! Big rewards take big risks and some are more calculated than others.

WaterSport · March 9, 2010 5:27AM

I love gambling on Ebay. A score makes up for any loss and guarantees buys/fines that would be out of my reach if they were already in a TPG holder. I think why people are against the practice of buying a raw coin is that they only think coins slabbed are safe. The trouble is, I can give you a list of coins I bought holdered, only to have them rejected for various reasons when trying to cross them, even PCGS holder coins that tarnished because they were cleaned. So to me, as long as your knowledge is bigger than your spending account, why not take a risk now and then. Just like a good gambler, come the end of the year, your winnings should still have you ahead.

WS

BBN · March 9, 2010 5:29AM

I don't worry about it. I don't spend more than $250 on anything raw on ebay and 90% of the time I have been happy with my purchase. Been buying more from the local B&M lately, though.

sinin1 · March 9, 2010 5:37AM

BNB, you sure have strong opinions about an aspect of an industry that you have clearly much too learn

you should restate your premise->

BNB should not buy raw coins on eBay (until he learns much more about problem coins and coin photos and coin grading....)

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 5:41AM

<< BNB, you sure have strong opinions about an aspect of an industry that you have clearly much too learn

you should restate your premise->

BNB should not buy raw coins on eBay (until he learns much more about problem coins and coin photos and coin grading....) >>

Who are you to tell me otherwise?

Sorry, but if I have an opinion, I am sure willing to state it. What I am NOT about however, is censorship. I live in America, not Iran(No offense) and I don't need people like you to dictate or ask me to "withhold" opinions because you feel "I'm new"..

JJM · March 9, 2010 5:42AM

I have purchased quite a few nice raw coins on ebay, with that said
buying raw semi's and keys is a totally different thing.I believe if you have the money
and desire to buy these coins in the first place, you can pay the the upcharge
to get them in a top tier TPG slab, then crackem out with confidence, and enjoy them

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 5:42AM

I'm still not(will never be) convinced that a key date coin sold raw in higher grade is a good gamble..

But, some of you may think otherwise and I accept the reasoning for both sides..

My theory is, "If it's raw, high grade, and key date", why not slab it? A lot of these dealers with large feedback scores surely know what TPGs are.. and I'm sure they have ways to get things submitted.

It's a way of mitigating risk.

bnb

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 5:42AM

BNB, please also keep in mind that many of us have been around LONG before third party grading (I joined the ANA in 1977) and are not locked into the idea that everything and anything raw is taboo. There are still MANY, MANY coins that are yet to be graded. I concur with sinin1 about restating the title of your thread. No offense, but there is NO substitute for experience!

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 5:45AM

I don't agree with either of you because of this fact, fraud is very common on eBay and it is not safe in my opinion to buy raw coins or currency if you A)Are new and don't know much about grading(Like a lot of bidders) or

It mitigates risk and there is very little subjectivity.

bnb

STONE · March 9, 2010 5:46AM

<< BNB, please also keep in mind that many of us have been around LONG before third party grading (I joined the ANA in 1977) and are not locked into the idea that everything and anything raw is taboo. There are still MANY, MANY coins that are yet to be graded. I concur with sinin1 about restating the title of your thread. No offense, but there is NO substitute for experience! >>

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 5:48AM

<< 

<< BNB, please also keep in mind that many of us have been around LONG before third party grading (I joined the ANA in 1977) and are not locked into the idea that everything and anything raw is taboo. There are still MANY, MANY coins that are yet to be graded. I concur with sinin1 about restating the title of your thread. No offense, but there is NO substitute for experience! >>

>>

Okay some of you, quit with this "jumping on the bandwagon" taking sides stuff.. That's not the point of this thread..

Look, I never said ALL raw coins are taboo ok? Nor did I imply that from the thread. But a GOOD DEAL of raw coins are problem, cleaned, overgraded, etc..

Yes, there are SOME cases where the buyer lucks out but these cases are less and less common with the knowledgeable sellers on eBay..

Just sayin..

I don't know why some of you are so adamant about buying raw coins... Great if you do it, but don't come here telling me that the risk is less like buying top tier TPG slabbed coins.. There's no comparison.

bnb

rhedden · March 9, 2010 5:50AM

I have been collecting for nearly 30 years, and I trust my judgment when purchasing a raw coin from ebay. I have gotten many nice ones at reasonable prices. I have also gotten a few that were a result of deceptive photos of problem coins. If I figure I lost more than a few bucks on the transaction because of a deceptive photo, I always return the coin. Can't let dishonest people get away with that kind of nonsense. The annoying part is that most of these sellers know exactly what they are doing.

I have also been on the other side of the coin, so to speak. I sold two coins over the years that had problems I did not notice (both large cents). My photos were good, but not good enough. When the person wanted to return the coin, I allowed a refund and paid shipping both ways.

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 5:50AM

<< I'm still not(will never be) convinced that a key date coin sold raw in higher grade is a good gamble..

But, some of you may think otherwise and I accept the reasoning for both sides..

My theory is, "If it's raw, high grade, and key date", why not slab it? A lot of these dealers with large feedback scores surely know what TPGs are.. and I'm sure they have ways to get things submitted.

It's a way of mitigating risk.

bnb >>

For the same reason that you stated, they have the right to their opinion and in the opinion of some, slabbing is not for them (or as I mentioned in an earlier post, not an option ((due to the fact that they do not know about the option in the first place)) ). Why are you getting so defensive? Some of us have been doing this before you were born. That's not meant as a slight, but just stated as a fact. Take the advice, it's free! That's a benefit of these boards, that someone relatively new to numismatics, has the opportunity to listen to others who have years of experience under their belts. Those who have already 'paid the tuition' to be schooled in coins.

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 5:52AM

<< I don't agree with either of you because of this fact, fraud is very common on eBay and it is not safe in my opinion to buy raw coins or currency if you A)Are new and don't know much about grading(Like a lot of bidders) or

It mitigates risk and there is very little subjectivity.

bnb >>

Point taken! But, you never included THIS statement (A) in your original post. Point B is only for those 'not faint of heart'.

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 5:52AM

Sure, I have nothing wrong with buying cheap $20 raw coins but high priced raw coins... yikes, I'd be more careful... I'd rather just buy a slabbed one.

sinin1 · March 9, 2010 5:55AM

my opinion is you should lower the value of coiins you purchase on eBay

until you have more of a clue about what you are doing

just saying and it is MY opinion

I am not telling you what to do - you can continue to buy raw 3 leggers on eBay for $1500 if you wish

yellowkid · March 9, 2010 5:55AM

I spent $20 on a raw token the other night, that's about the limit for me.

OchoReales · March 9, 2010 5:56AM

Again, those with 'deeper pockets' and more experience/moxey,chutzpah have no problem doing what you are so adamant about, buying higher dollar raw coins from Ebay.

Edited to add; I have nothing more to say on this subject that I haven't already said.

Fairlaneman · March 9, 2010 5:58AM

Just what is the point of the thread?

Is the point that your opinion is correct and everyother persons opinion is wrong? You need a little more "Coin Time" under your belt before you can convince other people that have 30, 40 and 50 years "Coin Time" under their belt that your opinion is correct.

Ken

BNBAnalytics · March 9, 2010 6:03AM

<< Just what is the point of the thread?

Is the point that your opinion is correct and everyother persons opinion is wrong? You need a little more "Coin Time" under your belt before you can convince other people that have 30, 40 and 50 years "Coin Time" under their belt that your opinion is correct.

Ken >>

No, Ken, the point is is to bring awareness again about this issue plaguing eBay and the coin community in general. Frauds, deception, misttatements on listings, etc.

Thanks!

oldfolkie · March 9, 2010 6:14AM

I'm not sure if I'd have ever gotten back into coin collecting without Ebay. I would not buy Trade Dollars, old gold, or key coins that weren't slabbed. On the other hand I have gotten a lot of coins I am very happy with off of ebay. Yes I have been disappointed a few times but just as often I've been disappointed by slabbed coins with poor pictures. I no longer buy anything without several sharply focused pictures, and I don't get into the toning thing. But, and this is the biggie, Ebay gives me greater access to a more varied selection. I have only spent 1,000 dollars or more on a coin 5 times in my life, most of my purchases are under 200 dollars, I can't run off to coin shows every time I'd like. Knowing who to deal with, knowing what to look for, and knowing well the coins you're interested in are critically important. Ebay is not a good place for the uneducated.

Amigo · March 9, 2010 6:17AM

I'm not able to add much, but this has been my experience.

I've collected for decades. Like everyone else, I've been burnt buying raw from Ebay from time to time. However, I have made MUCH better deals, MUCH more often, buying RAW

rld14 · March 9, 2010 6:28AM

I have bought a lot of raw coins on eBay that have slabbed and graded.

Maybe I just know what the f**k I'm doing?

HalfStrike · March 9, 2010 6:30AM

I'm buying raw off Ebay too, but like it.

WoodenJefferson · March 9, 2010 6:37AM

The “con-artists” and I do mean cons, purposely purchase problematic coins in ANACS holders, coins that are clearly labeled as such, crack them out and either hype them on internet auctions or play “low key” like they don’t know what they have. Eager buyers swarm over these type of auctions and coins sold to them maybe years in the making before the buyers discover their mistake.

djdilliodon · March 9, 2010 6:50AM

I agree that majority of the time if it looks to good to be true chances are it is but i like many have scored big time on raw coins off ebay. You just got to pick and choose wisely. The best i did off ebay is I i bought 35 sets of 1961 unopened proof sets for 425 shipped. At the time melt on them was 280 so i said even if the coins are garbage i wont lose my shirt. When i got them i pulled 2 67 ultra cameos and a bunch of 66 and 67 cameo's! I made my money back and some on that deal

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · March 9, 2010 7:03AM

<< 

<< Just what is the point of the thread?

Is the point that your opinion is correct and everyother persons opinion is wrong? You need a little more "Coin Time" under your belt before you can convince other people that have 30, 40 and 50 years "Coin Time" under their belt that your opinion is correct.

Ken >>

No, Ken, the point is is to bring awareness again about this issue plaguing eBay and the coin community in general. Frauds, deception, misttatements on listings, etc.

Thanks! >>

It seems the vast majority of those here are already aware of that fact, and have been for quite some time. It's not a new phenomenon.

Personally, I have ONLY bought raw coins on ebay and only maybe 2 times in the last 10 yrs have been a bit disappointed, but not enough to send one back. I now limit myself to lower value coins. Raw high dollar key dates, trade dollars and such are not what I would look for there.

I have bought quite a few really nice gold sovereigns in the past and was happy with every single one (all raw). Have since sold all but one (all on ebay - still raw). Most sold for a nice profit.

That's just my experience.

I'm happy to hear that you too, are now "aware".

TigerGirl1398 · March 9, 2010 7:38AM

<< I don't agree with either of you because of this fact, fraud is very common on eBay and it is not safe in my opinion to buy raw coins or currency if you A)Are new and don't know much about grading(Like a lot of bidders) or

It mitigates risk and there is very little subjectivity.

bnb >>

As stated by a coin seller.

Boom · March 26, 2010 11:45AM

So by BNB's own words,

why then is this Buffalo rarity being offered RAW?

You contradict yourself and are doing the very thing you warn people of.

* Alas* - I am beginning to get the picture here!

Boom · March 26, 2010 12:08PM

Disregard!

Edited out double post.

howards · March 26, 2010 2:57PM

<< Sure, I have nothing wrong with buying cheap $20 raw coins but high priced raw coins... yikes, I'd be more careful... I'd rather just buy a slabbed one. >>

So, I guess you would you advise me to pass on this coin?

http://tinyurl.com/yk5erss

TwoSides2aCoin · March 26, 2010 3:09PM

Perhaps the thread title should be edited to read:

I am why you don't BUY RAW on eBay"

Artist · March 26, 2010 3:17PM

<< Thoughts or dreams of a good deal, a great deal or a steal cloud (many) people's judgment. And causes them to take huge risks in trying to defy the very large odds against them. >>

It is possible to find good raw coins on Ebay.

It is very essential to qualify the seller - a.) what is their feedback? b.) how does their story for whatever coin they are describing jibe with their past auctions? c.) do they have a return policy? d.) do they provide good communication - (I will generally ask some question while the auction is in process to test this point out as much as to find out whatever I am asking about.)

I have not been buying many coins lately, and it has been an even longer time since I bought anything raw on Ebay, but in the past I made some of my greatest scores ever by just being watchful & diligent. My favorite coin in my collection is a 1914-D Indian $10 that I won for AU money - it has since gone on to grade NGC-63.

That said, I would be hesitant to buy any key date raw on Ebay, even under the best of seller circumstances. For a person to list a key date as such, they would have to at least know something about coins in order to recognize what they have... chances are, they would then also know that certification would maximize their return... or more likely, that what they have would not make the cut.

Type2 · March 26, 2010 3:35PM

I had no problem with this one you just need to know what to look for.

Some of the nices raw coin I get are off the bay.

keepdachange · March 27, 2010 11:53PM

Isn't this the same OP who wanted to know "How to make money in the coin business"? Yeah I'll be sure to take every thought of his as gospel for now on

ziggy29 · March 27, 2010 11:59PM

To some degree, it feels like a Wild West casino and folks who just randomly throw money at stuff will probably lose. Yet with discipline and education, it's possible to turn the "odds" a bit more in your favor.

You don't have to "win" more than you lose, either. If you win "big" and keep your losses small, you can "lose" 3/4 of the time and still come out ahead. And when you have a good eye, can spot varieties, stick to sellers offering returns or just willing to go on an educated hunch.... well, let's just say that the widespread belief that one should totally avoid "raw" is what makes the occasional big score still possible.

ambro51 · March 28, 2010 12:06AM

Wow Type 2....all those nice Jeffs...................and NICKEL spelled wrong on all of them! geez..................

OchoReales · March 28, 2010 5:12AM

There you go, BNB has been outed for trying to sound like anything BUT the novice that he is and then trying to pass off the slider '37 D 3 leg as a GEM!!! Way to go Jarret, we surely need more people like you on these boards, NOT! Stick around though, and TRY to learn a little BEFORE espousing your logorrhea! Just saying!

derryb · March 28, 2010 5:26AM

This is why I buy raw coins CAREFULLY on ebay:

Picked it up raw a while back for right at spot after promotions. At least a 55 from the ebay photo which has since expired, 63-64 in hand. Sometimes a bad pic can be to your advantage, but you gotta check out the seller to the maximum extent possible and compare the odds to the price.

Type2 · March 28, 2010 5:27AM

<< Wow Type 2....all those nice Jeffs...................and NICKEL spelled wrong on all of them! geez..................

>>

I never even saw that I just looked at the coin wow error holder to boot.

This is why you don't BUY RAW on eBay

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