Pro - it's the ONLY numismatic organization with any teeth where you at least have a chance of getting a complaint heard and possibly resolved to your satisfaction.
<< <i>Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that. >>
Not true. If the ANA gets legitimate complaints against a member dealer, they will boot him. If you don't believe me, ask Ken Pines who owns Coast to Coast Coins. >>
So what did that accomplish? He removed the ANA logo from his ad and it's business as usual.
<< <i>Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that. >>
Not true. If the ANA gets legitimate complaints against a member dealer, they will boot him. If you don't believe me, ask Ken Pines who owns Coast to Coast Coins. >>
So what did that accomplish? He removed the ANA logo from his ad and it's business as usual. >>
What can the ANA do other than kick him out of the organization?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What can the ANA do other than kick him out of the organization? >>
That's my point. Bottom line, these organizations and their arbitration processes really have no teeth dealing with ethics issues. They (and their members) shouldn't claim they do.
Here's a suggestion. Have every dealer pay insurance that will help protect a buyer's loss when they buy coins. If a buyer later learns he paid too much for an item, this insurance would compensate for that loss. The item would also go under review as to it's true value, who was the dealer that sold the item, etc, through receipts, inventory and so on. An organization needs to be in place that acts as an intermediate or go between that will go to the dealer and say, you sold an item for an X amount to so and so and the item is only worth a fraction of that. No-one should be paying 25% less or another predetermined percent of the value for an item. Obviously, if there are no rules or guidelines in place for dealers need to abide by, how can they be found to be doing something illegal? And if there are dealers who continuely break the rules than the premiums will go higher. Peer pressure from other dealers who don't like paying higher premiuns just might get off their butts and start monitoring what their neighbor is selling. Restoring the public's confidence to attend their local coin shows, IMO should be the highest goal in place by everyone. And the simple solution would be for buyers to have a card that would be signed by the dealer who is selling an item to them....if they have any doubts. The buyer is simply given a means that tells him that any item that he's buying is not worth less than 25% of it's true value. I have dealt with the public in my time, I have opened halls to them and provided for them what they wanted. But to drive 200 miles to a city of 10 million and there's hardly anyone at the coin show, something is terribly wrong. And than the pieces start to fall in place as you browse through a dealers inventory and see stuff with prices way above that items value. Table after table the truth sinks in, to every potential custumer who has lost money in such adventures before until they don't return anymore. Perhaps this is why those dealers are finding only themselves to deal with.....let them rip-off each other.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Here's a suggestion. Have every dealer pay insurance that will help protect a buyer's loss when they buy coins. If a buyer later learns he paid too much for an item, this insurance would compensate for that loss. The item would also go under review as to it's true value, who was the dealer that sold the item, etc, through receipts, inventory and so on. An organization needs to be in place that acts as an intermediate or go between that will go to the dealer and say, you sold an item for an X amount to so and so and the item is only worth a fraction of that. No-one should be paying 25% less or another predetermined percent of the value for an item. Obviously, if there are no rules or guidelines in place for dealers need to abide by, how can they be found to be doing something illegal? And if there are dealers who continuely break the rules than the premiums will go higher. Peer pressure from other dealers who don't like paying higher premiuns just might get off their butts and start monitoring what their neighbor is selling. Restoring the public's confidence to attend their local coin shows, IMO should be the highest goal in place by everyone. And the simple solution would be for buyers to have a card that would be signed by the dealer who is selling an item to them....if they have any doubts. The buyer is simply given a means that tells him that any item that he's buying is not worth less than 25% of it's true value. I have dealt with the public in my time, I have opened halls to them and provided for them what they wanted. But to drive 200 miles to a city of 10 million and there's hardly anyone at the coin show, something is terribly wrong. And than the pieces start to fall in place as you browse through a dealers inventory and see stuff with prices way above that items value. Table after table the truth sinks in, to every potential custumer who has lost money in such adventures before until they don't return anymore. Perhaps this is why those dealers are finding only themselves to deal with.....let them rip-off each other.
Leo >>
"If a buyer later learns he paid too much for an item..." Sorry, but that's preposterous. Who gets to determine whether a buyer has paid too much, and how? There are countless instances in which a number of highly informed collectors and/or dealers feel that a coin is worth X and and equal number of equally qualified individuals feel that it is worth 2X or 3X. Look st all of the auction sales where knowledgeable bidders are blown out of the water by 2 or more other bidders. And I say that your idea has no practical merit, despite my disdain for collectors getting gouged.
I don't remember ever engaging in an auction with a dealer on the bourse floor. Certainly many coins values are determined by auctions. Other than what's bought in bulk from estates, collections, etc, the majority of transactions with individual buyers that enter the show are done one on one.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I have had one situation where I had a problem with a PNG member,and when I tried to get something done about it,I was told not to cause more problems,as I had no case..It was my word against theirs..
I was not happy with that .
Maybe if I were a member at that time,I would have received a different answer ??
I am one who speaks my mind,and would fight for change when I believe something is wrong.
I would not just be joining for the secret handshake,and a fancy badge.
Thanks again, Larry... still thinking
Larry Shapiro Rare Coins - LSRC POB 854 Temecula CA 92593 310-710-2869 cell www.LSRarecoins.com Larry@LSRarecoins.com
I can imagine the CAC came about with the same principle in mind, providing some insurances that buyers are getting a fair shake with the transactions they make with coins..
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Would any current PNG members care to enlighten us as to the exact cost of dues for associate and full membership? >>
Full member dues are $1000 per year. Associate members pay $300 per year. The fees cited earlier are the amounts due when an application is submitted.
There's a lot I can say about this subject, but the pros and cons of joining the PNG have already been stated by Julian and others, "lavish banquets" and an updated logo aside. Though the organization itself and a few of the members are far from perfect, I still believe being a member has enough benefits for me to continue my participation for the time being. I am a member of the PNG, and have been a full member since I was 24 years old.
The $1000/ year dues may seem pricey in the minds of many dealers, but when compared to other advertising expenses like the yellow pages or newspaper ads the $1000 is actually a good deal considering the exposure that's attained.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I don't remember ever engaging in an auction with a dealer on the bourse floor. Certainly many coins values are determined by auctions. Other than what's bought in bulk from estates, collections, etc, the majority of transactions with individual buyers that enter the show are done one on one.
Leo >>
Whether a coin is sold via auction or on the bourse floor, the point is that what one informed buyer feels is a fair price can easily and often differ greatly from what another informed buyer feels is a fair price. And yet you apparently advocate someone being in charge of whether a buyer paid a "fair price" at a show or not. In far too many cases, there would be no way to objectively, fairly and accurately determine that. So, your idea is wholly impractical. That said, I wish uninformed buyers didn't get taken to the cleaners so badly and so often by sellers.
It appears that a certain term of experience and a financial parameter are two prerequisites to joining the PNG. However, do those two categories necessarily make the individual a professional numismatist? Why are those two items the most important? Cannot Longacre become a professional numismatist tomorrow if he wanted to (or 5 minutes from now)?
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I just lost a $20,000+ sale and another dealer just lost a similar sale because the buyer has a bunch of money tied up in a deal-gone-bad with a PNG dealer and is waiting for a 6 figure arbitration. Months? --Jerry
"I just lost a $20,000+ sale and another dealer just lost a similar sale because the buyer has a bunch of money tied up in a deal-gone-bad with a PNG dealer and is waiting for a 6 figure arbitration. Months? --Jerry"
I also released a customer this month from a "done deal" (about $20,000) as a courtesy to him when he explained his failure to pay me in a timely manner stemmed from his inability to get paid (timely) from a PNG dealer. I had no interest in "getting in the middle of it" so I simply released the customer from his obligations and wished him luck with his situation.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Larry (Or anyone here): If a dispute is filed against a PNG dealer, especially one involving an allegation of a failure to pay a collector for his coins, is that open case a matter of public record? Does PNG release information to other PNG dealers or the public on the dealers who have open cases pending against them?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
just be a nice, polite, honest hard worker and store owner.
make sure your public presence is top-notch, i.e. spelling, grammar, website layout and arrangement, etc.
be willing to listen to suggestions, i.e. if you have a misspelling on the first page and someone corrects you about that same misspelling occuring on multiple pages, DON'T just make the correction to the first instance of the misspelling, correct them ALL on EVERY page. (Ya' listening G.A.?)
consistency counts; proof and edit pays off, if you have someone capable of doing it.
If you look at some of the old Numismatist magazines, or Whitman Scrapbooks from the 1950s and 60s, the PNG was advertised as a credit bureau and collection agency for big coin dealers, who had trouble with laws and police agencies who considered the theft by hot check of a large cent or rare $3 gold coin to be simply the loss of the face value, and would often not even make arrests for what they considered the same as the petty theft of a candy bar. The word GUILD has a technical meaning that indicates a group that exists foremost to protect and benefit its own members, like various writers and screen actors guilds. The binding arbitration eliminates lawyer fees in disputes, and the possibility that a jury would award a victim more money than a panel of your friends would.
I can't believe that their webpage says that conviction of a member of a felony is not an automatic suspension, but rather depends on how badly it reflects on the PNG!
"The binding arbitration eliminates lawyer fees in disputes..." Would that it were.
I like Joe's take on the PNG topic, except, IMHO, it would be futile for the PNG to go after coin doctors. Instead, the focus should be on the grading services, since doctoring is driven by the temptation to trick graders who only spend a few seconds on each coin.
<< <i>Willis Rule #5 If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
This is not a PNG bashing session, so put away the pitchforks. The OP questions whether or not a dealer who meets the qualifications should join the PNG, so stay on topic...........
>>
Joe, with the question originally posed - "To Join PNG ? or NOT to Join ??" - I believe that both positive AND negative comments about the PNG are on topic. But if you disagree, perhaps you wish to edit, severely, the excellent first post you made to this thread:
<<I well exceed the professional experience and financial requirements for full PNG membership. And considering the level of coins that I handle on a daily basis, the way that I run my business, and the manner in which I treat my clients, I would expect to be welcomed into the PNG. However, despite repeated requests from many colleagues over at least the past 15 years, and with all respect to Julian, I don't see any reason to join.
Regarding coin doctors, the first one I looked up is a member and is causing PCGS a great deal of trouble with Lincoln Cents. Other PNG members that I know personally have financed coin doctors, subcontracted work to them, or openly tolerated coin doctoring in their companies. This is first hand knowledge, not gossip.
Item #7 from the "PNG Code of Ethics" states: "To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.". Doctored coins have been either physically or chemically altered with the purpose to commit fraud. The PNG has failed to take this issue seriously.
Furthermore, item #14 states: "To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>
"If a dispute is filed against a PNG dealer, especially one involving an allegation of a failure to pay a collector for his coins, is that open case a matter of public record? Does PNG release information to other PNG dealers or the public on the dealers who have open cases pending against them?"
I surely didn't think my question was an "attack" on PNG. In fact, I still have no idea of even what the answer is to the question. And, certainly, just because I gave the collector a "pass" on our "done deal" doesn't mean I don't intend to follow up to see just how the arbitration ends up later this year. I may conclude PNG is an incredibly valuable organization at the end.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"If a dispute is filed against a PNG dealer, especially one involving an allegation of a failure to pay a collector for his coins, is that open case a matter of public record? Does PNG release information to other PNG dealers or the public on the dealers who have open cases pending against them?"
>>
With binding mandatory arbitration, hearings are in secret. No transcripts are produced. Written explanations of decisions often are not provided so no precedents can be set and appeal is nearly impossible.
Public Citizen found that found that on average consumers lose to companies in arbitration proceedings between 96 and 99 percent of the time.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
"What I am asking for is a strong position on the subject backed up by a commitment to firm and constant education over a long period of time in order to change our collective behavior."
Since I am not a dealer, I have never given joining this organization any thought whatsoever.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks...
<< <i>Since I am not a dealer, I have never given joining this organization any thought whatsoever.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks... >>
I wont try to speak for them, but in one of his posts to this thread, TDN said (with part of the "we" referring to Legend/Laura) "We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership."
I wonder why this thread is still going strong when a current thread on the same topic has been locked.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Since I am not a dealer, I have never given joining this organization any thought whatsoever.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks... >>
I wont try to speak for them, but in one of his posts to this thread, TDN said (with part of the "we" referring to Legend/Laura) "We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership." >>
Does this mean that some PNG members are still knowingly selling doctored coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have received numerous phone calls,emails,and PM's about this subject from people who want to discuss this subject with me in private, rather than on this forum.
I am sure after Baltimore, that I will have a better idea of what is really going on with the PNG.
Thanks all for your input.
Larry Shapiro Rare Coins - LSRC POB 854 Temecula CA 92593 310-710-2869 cell www.LSRarecoins.com Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>I have received numerous phone calls,emails,and PM's about this subject from people who want to discuss this subject with me in private, rather than on this forum.
I am sure after Baltimore, that I will have a better idea of what is really going on with the PNG.
Thanks all for your input. >>
Well, if the persons who contacted you via PM had really good (as opposed to bad) things to say, I don't see why they wouldn't post them here.
Comments
Cons - what TDN and JOC already said.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that. >>
Not true. If the ANA gets legitimate complaints against a member dealer, they will boot him. If you don't believe me, ask Ken Pines who owns Coast to Coast Coins. >>
So what did that accomplish? He removed the ANA logo from his ad and it's business as usual.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that. >>
Not true. If the ANA gets legitimate complaints against a member dealer, they will boot him. If you don't believe me, ask Ken Pines who owns Coast to Coast Coins. >>
So what did that accomplish? He removed the ANA logo from his ad and it's business as usual. >>
What can the ANA do other than kick him out of the organization?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What can the ANA do other than kick him out of the organization? >>
That's my point. Bottom line, these organizations and their arbitration processes really have no teeth dealing with ethics issues. They (and their members) shouldn't claim they do.
I have dealt with the public in my time, I have opened halls to them and provided for them what they wanted. But to drive 200 miles to a city of 10 million and there's hardly anyone at the coin show, something is terribly wrong. And than the pieces start to fall in place as you browse through a dealers inventory and see stuff with prices way above that items value. Table after table the truth sinks in, to every potential custumer who has lost money in such adventures before until they don't return anymore. Perhaps this is why those dealers are finding only themselves to deal with.....let them rip-off each other.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Here's a suggestion. Have every dealer pay insurance that will help protect a buyer's loss when they buy coins. If a buyer later learns he paid too much for an item, this insurance would compensate for that loss. The item would also go under review as to it's true value, who was the dealer that sold the item, etc, through receipts, inventory and so on. An organization needs to be in place that acts as an intermediate or go between that will go to the dealer and say, you sold an item for an X amount to so and so and the item is only worth a fraction of that. No-one should be paying 25% less or another predetermined percent of the value for an item. Obviously, if there are no rules or guidelines in place for dealers need to abide by, how can they be found to be doing something illegal? And if there are dealers who continuely break the rules than the premiums will go higher. Peer pressure from other dealers who don't like paying higher premiuns just might get off their butts and start monitoring what their neighbor is selling. Restoring the public's confidence to attend their local coin shows, IMO should be the highest goal in place by everyone. And the simple solution would be for buyers to have a card that would be signed by the dealer who is selling an item to them....if they have any doubts. The buyer is simply given a means that tells him that any item that he's buying is not worth less than 25% of it's true value.
I have dealt with the public in my time, I have opened halls to them and provided for them what they wanted. But to drive 200 miles to a city of 10 million and there's hardly anyone at the coin show, something is terribly wrong. And than the pieces start to fall in place as you browse through a dealers inventory and see stuff with prices way above that items value. Table after table the truth sinks in, to every potential custumer who has lost money in such adventures before until they don't return anymore. Perhaps this is why those dealers are finding only themselves to deal with.....let them rip-off each other.
Leo >>
"If a buyer later learns he paid too much for an item..." Sorry, but that's preposterous. Who gets to determine whether a buyer has paid too much, and how? There are countless instances in which a number of highly informed collectors and/or dealers feel that a coin is worth X and and equal number of equally qualified individuals feel that it is worth 2X or 3X. Look st all of the auction sales where knowledgeable bidders are blown out of the water by 2 or more other bidders. And I say that your idea has no practical merit, despite my disdain for collectors getting gouged.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I have had one situation where I had a problem with a PNG member,and when I tried to get something done about it,I was told not to cause more problems,as I had no case..It was my word against theirs..
I was not happy with that .
Maybe if I were a member at that time,I would have received a different answer ??
I am one who speaks my mind,and would fight for change when I believe something is wrong.
I would not just be joining for the secret handshake,and a fancy badge.
Thanks again,
Larry... still thinking
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Would any current PNG members care to enlighten us as to the exact cost of dues for associate and full membership? >>
Full member dues are $1000 per year. Associate members pay $300 per year. The fees cited earlier are the amounts due when an application is submitted.
There's a lot I can say about this subject, but the pros and cons of joining the PNG have already been stated by Julian and others, "lavish banquets" and an updated logo aside. Though the organization itself and a few of the members are far from perfect, I still believe being a member has enough benefits for me to continue my participation for the time being. I am a member of the PNG, and have been a full member since I was 24 years old.
The $1000/ year dues may seem pricey in the minds of many dealers, but when compared to other advertising expenses like the yellow pages or newspaper ads the $1000 is actually a good deal considering the exposure that's attained.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I don't remember ever engaging in an auction with a dealer on the bourse floor. Certainly many coins values are determined by auctions. Other than what's bought in bulk from estates, collections, etc, the majority of transactions with individual buyers that enter the show are done one on one.
Leo >>
Whether a coin is sold via auction or on the bourse floor, the point is that what one informed buyer feels is a fair price can easily and often differ greatly from what another informed buyer feels is a fair price. And yet you apparently advocate someone being in charge of whether a buyer paid a "fair price" at a show or not. In far too many cases, there would be no way to objectively, fairly and accurately determine that. So, your idea is wholly impractical. That said, I wish uninformed buyers didn't get taken to the cleaners so badly and so often by sellers.
<< <i>...I would not just be joining for the secret handshake,and a fancy badge. >>
Hmm...I dunno...I would think a secret handshake would be pretty cool.
jom
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I also released a customer this month from a "done deal" (about $20,000) as a courtesy to him when he explained his failure to pay me in a timely manner stemmed from his inability to get paid (timely) from a PNG dealer. I had no interest in "getting in the middle of it" so I simply released the customer from his obligations and wished him luck with his situation.
Wondercoin
PM of course.
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
Wondercoin
WOM - waste of money
just be a nice, polite, honest hard worker and store owner.
make sure your public presence is top-notch, i.e. spelling, grammar, website layout and arrangement, etc.
be willing to listen to suggestions, i.e. if you have a misspelling on the first page and someone corrects you about that same misspelling occuring on multiple pages, DON'T just make the correction to the first instance of the misspelling, correct them ALL on EVERY page. (Ya' listening G.A.?)
consistency counts; proof and edit pays off, if you have someone capable of doing it.
Get that website up and running, Larry.
And..I will appreciate comments if I make errors
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What does membership cost? >>
Full membership: $400, Associate membership: $200, Affiliate membership: $100
Membership requirements
Lance. >>
Is Associate Membership for wannabe coin dealers?
I think so.
But what constitutes "professional" ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I can't believe that their webpage says that conviction of a member of a felony is not an automatic suspension, but rather depends on how badly it reflects on the PNG!
http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=3
I like Joe's take on the PNG topic, except, IMHO, it would be futile for the PNG to go after coin doctors. Instead, the focus should be on the grading services, since doctoring is driven by the temptation to trick graders who only spend a few seconds on each coin.
<< <i>Willis Rule #5 If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
This is not a PNG bashing session, so put away the pitchforks. The OP questions whether or not a dealer who meets the qualifications should join the PNG, so stay on topic...........
>>
Joe, with the question originally posed - "To Join PNG ? or NOT to Join ??" - I believe that both positive AND negative comments about the PNG are on topic. But if you disagree, perhaps you wish to edit, severely, the excellent first post you made to this thread:
<<I well exceed the professional experience and financial requirements for full PNG membership. And considering the level of coins that I handle on a daily basis, the way that I run my business, and the manner in which I treat my clients, I would expect to be welcomed into the PNG. However, despite repeated requests from many colleagues over at least the past 15 years, and with all respect to Julian, I don't see any reason to join.
Regarding coin doctors, the first one I looked up is a member and is causing PCGS a great deal of trouble with Lincoln Cents. Other PNG members that I know personally have financed coin doctors, subcontracted work to them, or openly tolerated coin doctoring in their companies. This is first hand knowledge, not gossip.
Item #7 from the "PNG Code of Ethics" states:
"To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.". Doctored coins have been either physically or chemically altered with the purpose to commit fraud. The PNG has failed to take this issue seriously.
Furthermore, item #14 states:
"To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>
I surely didn't think my question was an "attack" on PNG. In fact, I still have no idea of even what the answer is to the question. And, certainly, just because I gave the collector a "pass" on our "done deal" doesn't mean I don't intend to follow up to see just how the arbitration ends up later this year. I may conclude PNG is an incredibly valuable organization at the end.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"If a dispute is filed against a PNG dealer, especially one involving an allegation of a failure to pay a collector for his coins, is that open case a matter of public record? Does PNG release information to other PNG dealers or the public on the dealers who have open cases pending against them?"
>>
With binding mandatory arbitration, hearings are in secret. No transcripts are produced. Written explanations of decisions often are not provided so no precedents can be set and appeal is nearly impossible.
Public Citizen found that found that on average consumers lose to companies in arbitration proceedings between 96 and 99 percent of the time.
Sounds fun, Joe.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks...
<< <i>Since I am not a dealer, I have never given joining this organization any thought whatsoever.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks... >>
I wont try to speak for them, but in one of his posts to this thread, TDN said (with part of the "we" referring to Legend/Laura) "We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Since I am not a dealer, I have never given joining this organization any thought whatsoever.
But I have a question: What is it that is being protested by such people as John Albanese and Laura Sperber? I have seen veiled and not-so-veiled references to this protest but I don't know what exactly IS being protested.
I would not mind being enlightened by PM if it would cause too much trouble to post it publicly. I am confused. Thanks... >>
I wont try to speak for them, but in one of his posts to this thread, TDN said (with part of the "we" referring to Legend/Laura) "We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership." >>
Does this mean that some PNG members are still knowingly selling doctored coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I wonder why this thread is still going strong when a current thread on the same topic has been locked. >>
I must be missing the other thread. Perhaps the mods decided that one thread on the topic at a time is enough. I have seen that on other boards.
I am sure after Baltimore, that I will have a better idea of what is really going on with the PNG.
Thanks all for your input.
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>I have received numerous phone calls,emails,and PM's about this subject from people who want to discuss this subject with me in private, rather than on this forum.
I am sure after Baltimore, that I will have a better idea of what is really going on with the PNG.
Thanks all for your input. >>
Well, if the persons who contacted you via PM had really good (as opposed to bad) things to say, I don't see why they wouldn't post them here.
You are a pretty smart guy..no matter what anyone else says
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
I have decided to wait,until certain changes are made
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>RYK,
I have decided to wait,until certain changes are made
Larry >>
You mean they would not have you?
JK, either way, not a wrong decision. I know good and not-so-good folks on both sides of the issue.
RYK
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com