What?

Moldnut · February 25, 2010 2:15PM

I was just going through PCGS photograde and I see that they used my 1809 dime as their guide for G6. The only problem is that its not graded as a G6. It does look like they did do some photo edit to it. Some of the darker areas above the date are gone but all the markes and light scratches are just like my coin. Scratch on the 0 and at the nose are all there.

SilverEagles92 · February 25, 2010 2:17PM

Do you have a better closeup picture?

I'm seeing 2 different coins.

savoyspecial · February 25, 2010 2:18PM

what grade is it?

llafoe · February 25, 2010 2:18PM

Maybe is the new BIG announcement... we can make your coin ANY grade you want!

Moldnut · February 25, 2010 2:20PM

I know my pics suck but its the same coin 100% in a VG8 holder.

Bochiman · February 25, 2010 2:23PM

Was it ever in a PCGS G6 holder at some point? (ie...did you "make" the coin yourself or did you buy it recently as a VG8?)

savoyspecial · February 25, 2010 2:23PM

so they touched up blemishes, but then downgraded it??? that is weird

there have been other posts about using member's coins in PCGS photograde........obviously this is being done without the (coin) owner's permission.......i suppose technically PCGS owns the rights to the image if they took the picture but you would think they would ask or notify the owner first

did you have a TruView done of this coin?

Moldnut · February 25, 2010 2:27PM

Bought it raw about 8 months ago and sent it in but I didnt get TruView.

stinkinlincoln · February 25, 2010 2:28PM

POOF!

+!

And 100. How all in one thread Im not sure, but you sir figured out how to do it...

Its odd for sure. Have you sent PCGS an email?

lkeigwin · February 25, 2010 2:36PM

It's on Coin Facts as a VG8.
Lance.

NewRose · February 25, 2010 3:23PM

At first site they appear to be two totally different coin, but I can clearly see how they are similar. Very odd that they would touch it up, and downgrade it to a G6 like savoyspecial had said.

lkeigwin · February 25, 2010 11:37PM

I'm sure it's the same coin. The image in CoinFacts (link above) is not touched up and no one would debate the matter.

You should be flattered to have your coin in Coin Facts.

I don't see anything wrong with PCGS touching up an image of a G8 to give us a realistic look at a G6 in PhotoGrade. I don't see why a grading guide shouldn't use made up photos, for that matter.
Lance.

savoyspecial · February 25, 2010 11:38PM

>> I don't see why a grading guide shouldn't use made up photos, for that matter.
Lance.>>

i think the problem in this example is that they are using a made-up grade

dsessom · February 26, 2010 12:10AM

That is the same coin, but I think they touch it up for a smooth consistant look. Every one of the photos is touched up. They are "Playboy Coins"!
Fine examples, but airbrushed for perfection.

crypto79 · February 26, 2010 12:29AM

I too have one of my coins used for photograde but they called mine a VF20 when its in a VF25 holder. And to note they edited my picture too to lighten the coin up a tad. and remove some tone spots.

On Photograde it's the VF20 Trade DollarVF20
it's the 1875 s/cc in my sig-line

tahoe98 · February 26, 2010 12:54AM

.....yeah, but you got the royalty check, yes??

crypto79 · February 26, 2010 1:10AM

<< .....yeah, but you got the royalty check, yes??

>>

No but it will be listed as a plate coin when it comes up for sale.

Moldnut · February 26, 2010 1:54AM

I thought is was cool that they used my coin, just odd that is was for a lower grade.

mikeyg · February 26, 2010 1:57AM

<< I know my pics suck but its the same coin 100% in a VG8 holder. >>

I wouldnt resubmit if I were you

LindeDad · February 26, 2010 2:25AM

<< so they touched up blemishes, but then downgraded it??? that is weird

there have been other posts about using member's coins in PCGS photograde........obviously this is being done without the (coin) owner's permission.......i suppose technically PCGS owns the rights to the image if they took the picture but you would think they would ask or notify the owner first

did you have a TruView done of this coin? >>

Many on here need to go back and read the TOS that you agreed to, to use this site. Any images that users upload to the site become the hosts for their use any way they desire. That satement is also in the TruView aggrement.

crypto79 · February 26, 2010 2:37AM

<< 

<< so they touched up blemishes, but then downgraded it??? that is weird

there have been other posts about using member's coins in PCGS photograde........obviously this is being done without the (coin) owner's permission.......i suppose technically PCGS owns the rights to the image if they took the picture but you would think they would ask or notify the owner first

did you have a TruView done of this coin? >>

Many on here need to go back and read the TOS that you agreed to, to use this site. Any images that users upload to the site become the hosts for their use any way they desire. That satement is also in the TruView aggrement. >>

That and how would they ever track down the right people. I think they are fine esp since they change every coin a little bit

stinkinlincoln · February 26, 2010 2:43AM

<<Many on here need to go back and read the TOS that you agreed to, to use this site. Any images that users upload to the site become the hosts for their use any way they desire. That satement is also in the TruView aggrement. >>>>

But.... Instead of just using images, they are 'cleaning' up coins and making them look better than they are. If a coin seller was doing this, people would be outraged, but if a TPG does it for a Photograde site, its ok? Why not leave the coins as is to show collectors real grades, not image manipulated grades.

savoyspecial · February 26, 2010 2:45AM

>> I think they are fine esp since they change every coin a little bit>>

i tend to agree with stinkinlincoln's sentiment that these alterations make the offense worse.......add in the fact that they grade it differently on the slab's label than they do on their own photograde and the whole thing seems wrong

stinkinlincoln · February 26, 2010 3:58AM

By PCGS using these images, are they not in a sense creating plate coins? Due to this, if someone trys to cross check or reference a coin to known images, and its Photograde image for comparisons, they are screwed. Why would PCGS alter HISTORY in such a way, albeit through a digital format? The TOS allows them to use images posted on their site, I fully understand that, and they can do what they want with these images... But, this is a coin collectors site and service. They are damaging the recorded history of these pieces by doing this.

Am alone in my thinking on this?

crypto79 · February 26, 2010 5:00AM

<< By PCGS using these images, are they not in a sense creating plate coins? Due to this, if someone trys to cross check or reference a coin to known images, and its Photograde image for comparisons, they are screwed. Why would PCGS alter HISTORY in such a way, albeit through a digital format? The TOS allows them to use images posted on their site, I fully understand that, and they can do what they want with these images... But, this is a coin collectors site and service. They are damaging the recorded history of these pieces by doing this.

Am alone in my thinking on this? >>

No it is my gut reaction too but then I think that first off it is not a record of the coins history but that of PCGS's standards. If a real coin inspired the perfect for a given grade so be it but what the photograde tries to do is illustrate a perfect for grade and we should remember that it is just that an illustration, not a collector's showcase. Also it is a new system and a super tool for collectors and it should be given time to mature.

stinkinlincoln · February 26, 2010 5:04AM

<<No it is my gut reaction too but then I think that first off it is not a record of the coins history but that of PCGS's standards. If a real coin inspired the perfect for a given grade so be it but what the photograde tries to do is illustrate a perfect for grade and we should remember that it is just that an illustration, not a collector's showcase. Also it is a new system and a super tool for collectors and it should be given time to mature.>>

But, the images are being changed to show a grade they want, not an actual coin properly graded and imaged... New or not, to manipulate images for educational purposes just seems really, well, unprofessional.

If I get banned for my comments, so be it, but I find this highly odd.

Moldnut · February 26, 2010 12:04PM

Wow, I guess its not that odd. It must have been a lucky group of coins I sent in.

VG10

jesbroken · February 27, 2010 2:27AM

I don't think this bodes very well for Photograde that they are showing a VG8 coin and listing it as a G6 coin. Especially, that they have listed another coin as a VF20 when in reality it is a VF25. That is more than a coincidence. I feel as a collector I would avoid that avenue of coin grading assistance as being misleading. Maybe its just me, but this doesn't seem to bother many as I would think it should. The touching up of photos may be explainable but the misleading grading sequences is not, in my opinion.
Jim

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 2:32AM

I agree. I thought this would be abit more disliked than what it seems to be. This is not right, not professional, and frankly, beneath PCGS.

If this is ok, why cant I do this when I sell a coin?

This is just bad business period.

And from here on out, I WILL NOT use photograde since it cant be provided with real coins and real grades.

jakeblue · February 27, 2010 2:57AM

That is disconcerting. It also appears your capped bust quarter was downgraded a point as well as your dime. After learning this, I wonder how many of the photos are actually downgraded a point? Why would they want to downgrade the coins to lower coins?

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 2:58AM

Its not just downgrading pieces for this service. THEY ALTER THE IMAGES TO FIT THE DOWNGRADED GRADE.

Im sorry, but I dont see how any of this is educational, accurate, right, professional, or becoming of a company such as PCGS.

TomB · February 27, 2010 4:19AM

I think it odd that PCGS would do this since they must have a rather extensive TrueView catalog of images to choose from for most coins. However, the practice of manipulating the image to show the grade is neither morally nor ethically wrong in my opinion. PCGS is simply doing this to illustrate what a particular coin in a particular grade might look like without identifying the individual coin and/or owner and without soliciting a sale of such coin. The image manipulation isn't a big deal.

PonyExpress8 · February 27, 2010 5:51AM

I am disappointed to see specifically graded coins being represented via photo alteration at different grades. My guess is PCGS may not have all the grades covered before they published this, so in order to complete the photo grades they had to resort to this.

It would be my suggestion if this is the case that PCGs simply disclose this fact in a prominent statement somewhere on the photo grade service. Thus they would have provided open disclosure and clear explanation, perhaps mitigating this coming up.

While it may not bother some there are others who are troubled by this. As the leading TPG company it's disappointing to see.

jesbroken · February 27, 2010 6:21AM

TomB, I am rather surprized by your post. You see nothing wrong with purporting that a grade that you graded/slabbed should actually be lower and representing to the public that this is so? I cannot comprehend how this would be Okay. JMO
Jim

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 6:25AM

Let me get this out of the way really quick... 100+

IGWT · February 27, 2010 6:28AM

Who?

TwoSides2aCoin · February 27, 2010 6:52AM

mine looks the same, albeit smaller, in hand.

TomB · February 27, 2010 11:11AM

<< TomB, I am rather surprized by your post. You see nothing wrong with purporting that a grade that you graded/slabbed should actually be lower and representing to the public that this is so? I cannot comprehend how this would be Okay. JMO
Jim >>

I haven't seen the images in question and am only addressing the topic that PCGS might manipulate an image of a specific coin and then host the manipulated image on their website for grading purposes. If, after the manipulation of the image, they believe the image merits a specific grade then that is their perogative to assign the grade to the image. As far as I understand, the coin image in the first post was edited and then the edited image was assigned a grade that was one increment below what the coin received. If someone wants to post the before and after images within the thread then I would be happy to look at them, but I have not seen the after image and am only writing about what is contained in the first post.

08HALA20 · February 27, 2010 11:40AM

<< 

<< TomB, I am rather surprized by your post. You see nothing wrong with purporting that a grade that you graded/slabbed should actually be lower and representing to the public that this is so? I cannot comprehend how this would be Okay. JMO
Jim >>

I haven't seen the images in question and am only addressing the topic that PCGS might manipulate an image of a specific coin and then host the manipulated image on their website for grading purposes. If, after the manipulation of the image, they believe the image merits a specific grade then that is their perogative to assign the grade to the image. As far as I understand, the coin image in the first post was edited and then the edited image was assigned a grade that was one increment below what the coin received. If someone wants to post the before and after images within the thread then I would be happy to look at them, but I have not seen the after image and am only writing about what is contained in the first post. >>

FWIW,

I am leaning to this side on this issue.
Isn't Photograde only for illustrative purposes to show different grades? Or is there a greater purpose?
Whether the coin really exists doesn't really matter.
It may be better to show same coin with minor adjustments to show minor differences in G6 and G8, rather than two coins with totally different looks?

Rookie Joe

edited for the usual spelling

RareSov · February 27, 2010 2:33PM

All I can add is wow.

Also TwoSides2aCoin can you remove that obtrusive image ! what the #@$@ sir.

tradedollarnut · February 27, 2010 2:39PM

I agree with TomB. There's nothing wrong with using a stock image as a starting point and then altering it to fit the definition of a grade in order to illustrate said grade.

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 2:55PM

How can a digitally manipulated image of a graded coin, downgraded to fit a more accurate 'look' for a grade, be better for educational purposes than the coin graded and presented for the grade PCGS saw fit to give it?

And, if the grade doesnt match what they are looking for, why not find a coin that did match their needs without altering a coins imaged history?

Pedigrees matter to coins, and to say otherwise is a lie. Plate coins are noted for a reason, regardless if this service is for educational purposes...

If the arguement is that its for educational purposes, so is every other book written on this hobby, do they alter a coins image to the point of a new grade and look to fit their needs?

They are PCGS... TruView.... Here... Auction sites... They have to alter images and downgrade coins that collectors presently own and may be using in registries?

Am I missing something here?

Unknown · February 27, 2010 3:57PM

This content has been removed.

stman · February 27, 2010 4:11PM

So what I'm reading here is....... the coins were over-graded and they played with them digitally and downgraded it? Hmmmm, they possibly give you guys grade inflation.... and now they take it away?

crypto79 · February 27, 2010 4:13PM

<< How can a digitally manipulated image of a graded coin, downgraded to fit a more accurate 'look' for a grade, be better for educational purposes than the coin graded and presented for the grade PCGS saw fit to give it?

And, if the grade doesnt match what they are looking for, why not find a coin that did match their needs without altering a coins imaged history?

Pedigrees matter to coins, and to say otherwise is a lie. Plate coins are noted for a reason, regardless if this service is for educational purposes...

If the arguement is that its for educational purposes, so is every other book written on this hobby, do they alter a coins image to the point of a new grade and look to fit their needs?

They are PCGS... TruView.... Here... Auction sites... They have to alter images and downgrade coins that collectors presently own and may be using in registries?

Am I missing something here? >>

Just like to point out you're taking a lot of offense to some thing that doesn't affect you or your collection. As one of the owners of said coins I take it more as a sense of pride then displeasure. Also you are taking a flat earth point of view to what PCGS is trying to do which is educate collectors and back up their actions and make a subjective art more defined. I don't care if they use an etch-a-sketch to make an example. I applaud them for putting their standards out there and giving something back(for free mind you) to collectors. If for some reason one of your coins ends up on the service, wright Don Wills a letter asking him to take it down at which point they probably will. Problem solved

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 4:32PM

<<Just like to point out you're taking a lot of offense to some thing that doesn't affect you or your collection.>>

This has no bearing on anything. Im a coin collector, so to be quite frank, its my business and since a thread was started here and I have an opinion on the issue I choose to speak my mind. We as a whole study coins their history and their preservation, including their photographic history when applicable. As in the case of these coins.

<< As one of the owners of said coins I take it more as a sense of pride then displeasure.>>

Thats your choice, but the op saw differently. And so do several other collectors. So its not just me. I would take pride in owning a plate coin for sure, but theyre not. These coins dont exist. Theyve been altered to appear a specific way, instead of using real world examples.

<<Also you are taking a flat earth point of view to what PCGS is trying to do which is educate collectors and back up their actions and make a subjective art more defined. >>

I know, I know... Its ok Mr Gore...

But to the point and ignoring the name calling. Educating collectors starts with showing them real coins properly graded and imaged, not altered images of fake grades.

<>

Cost or lack there of doesnt really matter here honestly. The fact that its free doesnt make this less weird or anything.

<<If for some reason one of your coins ends up on the service, wright Don Wills a letter asking him to take it down at which point they probably will. Problem solved >>

I would in a heart beat if the coin was altered via image and then the grade was altered as well. But that doesnt solve the problem.
What is the point of coin books, auction catalogs, plate coins, or pedigrees if the coins imaged can be manipulated to fit the authors needs?

crypto79 · February 27, 2010 4:49PM

Your points have little merit or barring on reality. It is no different then Cosmo air brushing a cover to illustrate an ideal or someone taking the red eye and the stupid smiles out of the family photo album. People always edit what they project to the rest of the world to show an ideal example. Save your fake outrage and talking points about honesty, I don't recall PCGS directly corresponding on the issue nor soliciting your opinion. It is a lose, lose proposition for them as if they use 100% trueviews people will complain about "their coins" where as they mix it up somewhat people will whine too about other peoples coins being misrepresented..

stinkinlincoln · February 27, 2010 4:53PM

<<Your points have little merit or barring on reality. It is no different then Cosmo air brushing a cover to illustrate an ideal or someone taking the red eye and the stupid smiles out of the family photo album. People always edit what they project to the rest of the world to show an ideal example. Save your fake outrage and talking points about honesty, I don't recall PCGS directly corresponding on the issue nor soliciting your opinion. It is a lose, lose proposition for them as if they use 100% trueviews people will complain about "their coins" where as they mix it up somewhat people will whine too about other peoples coins being misrepresented.. >>

Ok. And Im the Flat Earther huh?

Have a lovely evening.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 27, 2010 9:19PM

Some panties bunch up faster than others.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 27, 2010 10:08PM

<< I was just going through PCGS photograde and I see that they used my 1809 dime as their guide for G6. The only problem is that its not graded as a G6. It does look like they did do some photo edit to it. Some of the darker areas above the date are gone but all the markes and light scratches are just like my coin. Scratch on the 0 and at the nose are all there.

>>

So how big of a problem is anyone really having ?

TwoSides2aCoin · February 27, 2010 10:38PM

<< I agree with TomB. There's nothing wrong with using a stock image as a starting point and then altering it to fit the definition of a grade in order to illustrate said grade. >>

As coin education, or furthering numismatic knowledge is concerned, I'm in concurrence.

What?

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