To Join PNG ? or NOT to Join ??

PQpeace · February 25, 2010 3:36PM

I have been asked by a number of PNG dealers to join their organization.

For those who are members , why should I join ? Benifits ?

Reasons not to join ??
Thanks for your input,
Larry

llafoe · February 25, 2010 5:52PM

This is a general slam... I can understand why NGC and PCGS would want to be named the Official TPG of the ANA or PNG, BUT why would the ANA or PNG chose their Official TPG based on the highest bidder? Why wouldn't they chose the TPG that would best represent their members? Why wouldn't the ANA or PNG say... we don't want to accept any monies from the TPGs... we will tell our members that the best TPG for moderns is PCGS, for Tokens is NGC, for Ancients is ICG, etc. Wouldn't that serve their members more than the highest bidder? I would look at how a club supports their members without bias from any third parties (including TPGs, insurance companies, etc.).

Julian · February 26, 2010 12:20AM

I would urge you to join, Larry. The PNG is the largest organization of professional numismatists. The benefits include:
1. mandatory arbitration of all disputes
2. being part of the organization with The Voice, when it comes to numismatic questions.
3. easier access to many shows
4. 5 free 24 hour submissions to the current sponsoring encapsulator
5. national advertising by the organization

I am sure that there are many others, but I would urge you to look at www.pngdealers.com for others.

I have been a member for nearly 40 years and enthusiastically encourage all professionals to become members.

PerryHall · February 26, 2010 12:29AM

What does membership cost?

RYK · February 26, 2010 12:37AM

As a collector, I once held the PNG and PNG dealers in extremely high esteem. As I gained more experience, my opinion has changed. There are good PNG dealers and bad PNG dealers. There are good non-PNG dealers and bad non-PNG dealers. Working with a PNG dealer does not invoke the confidence in me that it once did, all other factors being equal.

Julian offers some compelling reasons to join, from a dealer's perspective, and I have no doubt that these are worthwhile. I am offering my opinion from a collector's perspective.

coinguy1 · February 26, 2010 12:50AM

<< I would urge you to join, Larry. The PNG is the largest organization of professional numismatists. The benefits include:
1. mandatory arbitration of all disputes
2. being part of the organization with The Voice, when it comes to numismatic questions.
3. easier access to many shows
4. 5 free 24 hour submissions to the current sponsoring encapsulator
5. national advertising by the organization

I am sure that there are many others, but I would urge you to look at www.pngdealers.com for others.

I have been a member for nearly 40 years and enthusiastically encourage all professionals to become members. >>

Julian, playing devil's advocate here for a moment.....

What difference does it make that PNG is the "largest organization of professional numismatists"?
I have heard of one or more members dropping out after losing an arbitration, thus negating the effects of the ruling.
Easier access to how many shows? - I thought the number was very small.
Aren't there members who are known (or widely thought) to be coin doctors?

Longacre · February 26, 2010 12:50AM

To me as a collector it does not make a difference.

AlbaJohn · February 26, 2010 1:00AM

Dear Larry-
I would also urge you to join the PNG.
They recently upgraded their logo and it's a beauty !
They hold lavish banquets during the ANA Show in August and, .....if you play your cards right, you may end up with one of the many awards presented to their members!
The prestige that comes with being a PNG member will impress your friends and neighbors!
Good luck and let me know if you need a sponsor!

John Albanese

lkeigwin · February 26, 2010 1:04AM

<< What does membership cost? >>

Full membership: $400, Associate membership: $200, Affiliate membership: $100

Membership requirements
Lance.

2ndCharter · February 26, 2010 1:06AM

To me as a collector it does not make a difference.

Hey, we agree on something!

By the way, wasn't Tom Noe a PNG member?

CaptHenway · February 26, 2010 1:08AM

<< I would urge you to join, Larry. The PNG is the largest organization of professional numismatists. The benefits include:
1. mandatory arbitration of all disputes
2. being part of the organization with The Voice, when it comes to numismatic questions.
3. easier access to many shows
4. 5 free 24 hour submissions to the current sponsoring encapsulator
5. national advertising by the organization

I am sure that there are many others, but I would urge you to look at www.pngdealers.com for others.

I have been a member for nearly 40 years and enthusiastically encourage all professionals to become members. >>

What he said.
I am proud to be a member of the PNG.
Tom DeLorey

TomB · February 26, 2010 1:12AM

You will get plenty of opinions and some of these are likely to be well informed. However, you may also want to drop a line to Laura Sperber and ask her thoughts on the PNG since I believe she has not always been in agreement with their policies. At this time I cannot recall a specific example of her opinion of the PNG, but again I think she might have issues with some decisions or directions.

saintguru · February 26, 2010 1:21AM

Aother gang of people who do nothing for an acronym, IMO.

Greeniejr · February 26, 2010 1:24AM

The PNG is a wonderful organization that has begun to take a significant leadership in the industry. Gone are the days of the old boys club (plus Ms. Bullowa). There are a lot of younger dealers coming in and under the current leadership the organization is being proactive handling industry issues. You really should join.
Disclosure: I am a member of the PNG

PonyExpress8 · February 26, 2010 1:24AM

Aren't there members who are known (or widely thought) to be coin doctors?

Mark,

Your devil's advocate statement on this point seems a bit over the top to me. In checking the PNG site for those I know to be Drs. their names don't appear. I will also concede you may know of more Drs. then I or be aware of more suspected then I.

It would certainly seem from my observations and looking at the list of members that the PNG membership doesn't harbor a bunch of coin doctors.

RYK · February 26, 2010 1:45AM

Gone are the days of the old boys club (plus Ms. Bullowa).

Isn't the PNG just a new old boys club?

shorecoll · February 26, 2010 1:47AM

I think Legend's point is that some PNG dealers either are doctors or are fronts for doctors. IMHO you have to choose the dealer, not the organization. My opinion as a collector is still net positive. I sincerely wish that one of you knowledgeable guys would find a way to anonymously out the top dozen or so doctors.

Greeniejr · February 26, 2010 1:48AM

<< Gone are the days of the old boys club (plus Ms. Bullowa).

Isn't the PNG just a new old boys club? >>

I would say no for 2 reasons. The first is that there is much less of the good old boys mentality (still very present in CSNS mind you) and second there is a lot more diversity including more female members than in the past.

PQpeace · February 26, 2010 1:49AM

John said :

Dear Larry-
I would also urge you to join the PNG.
They recently upgraded their logo and it's a beauty !
They hold lavish banquets during the ANA Show in August and, .....if you play your cards right, you may end up with one of the many awards presented to their members!
The prestige that comes with being a PNG member will impress your friends and neighbors!
Good luck and let me know if you need a sponsor!

John Albanese

Pretty funny

After a few more responses,I will give a few opinions..
Thanks guys,
Larry

RYK · February 26, 2010 1:55AM

<< Dear Larry-
I would also urge you to join the PNG.
They recently upgraded their logo and it's a beauty !
They hold lavish banquets during the ANA Show in August and, .....if you play your cards right, you may end up with one of the many awards presented to their members!
The prestige that comes with being a PNG member will impress your friends and neighbors!
Good luck and let me know if you need a sponsor!

John Albanese >>

Mr. Albanese,

I curiously did not see your name among the illustrious members of the PNG. I think your offer to sponsor the OP is hollow. What gives?

PQpeace · February 26, 2010 1:56AM

Quick true story about coin docs..

I met an XYZ grader in the restroom..
I said hello,and then said "make sure you wash your hands so you won't get anything on the coins"

He said to me with a straight face :

" After grading coins,I wash my hands before I use the restroom,so I don't get any coin doc chemicals on me"

Funny,sad,but very true.

I am in favor of outing all the docs..but what I know is already well known in the industry.

I really think the day is coming when they will be kicked out of the PNG,outed,and not allowed to submit coins...

One doctor,who I see at lots of shows keeps asking me why I don't buy coins from him anymore

Larry

Julian · February 26, 2010 2:07AM

<< 

<< What does membership cost? >>

Full membership: $400, Associate membership: $200, Affiliate membership: $100

Membership requirements
Lance. >>

These #'s are erroneous.

PQpeace · February 26, 2010 2:11AM

I was told it was $1000 to join.
Larry

PonyExpress8 · February 26, 2010 2:13AM

<< What does membership cost? >>

Full membership: $400, Associate membership: $200, Affiliate membership: $100

Membership requirements
Lance. >>

These #'s are erroneous.

Julian,

I just rechecked the PNG site and those are the numbers currently showing. Is the website wrong?

If so what does it cost?

Category and cost for the 3 levels of membership,

Glenn

coinguy1 · February 26, 2010 2:27AM

<< Aren't there members who are known (or widely thought) to be coin doctors?

Mark,

Your devil's advocate statement on this point seems a bit over the top to me. In checking the PNG site for those I know to be Drs. their names don't appear. I will also concede you may know of more Drs. then I or be aware of more suspected then I.

It would certainly seem from my observations and looking at the list of members that the PNG membership doesn't harbor a bunch of coin doctors. >>

Glenn, I guess we will have to agree to disagree as to whether my point was "a bit over the top" or not. I actually think it was rather tame/a bit understated, as phrased.

fastfreddie · February 26, 2010 2:33AM

I agee, and the one in Virginia Beach in my opinion is BAD.

fastfreddie · February 26, 2010 2:41AM

<< As a collector, I once held the PNG and PNG dealers in extremely high esteem. As I gained more experience, my opinion has changed. There are good PNG dealers and bad PNG dealers. There are good non-PNG dealers and bad non-PNG dealers. Working with a PNG dealer does not invoke the confidence in me that it once did, all other factors being equal.

Julian offers some compelling reasons to join, from a dealer's perspective, and I have no doubt that these are worthwhile. I am offering my opinion from a collector's perspective. >>

Sorry, forgot the quote....as I said the one in Virginia Beach is BAD. As a collector, I'll send my hard earned money to Norfolk now.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2010 2:44AM

<< Quick true story about coin docs..

I met an XYZ grader in the restroom..
I said hello,and then said "make sure you wash your hands so you won't get anything on the coins"

He said to me with a straight face :

" After grading coins,I wash my hands before I use the restroom,so I don't get any coin doc chemicals on me"

Funny,sad,but very true.

I am in favor of outing all the docs..but what I know is already well known in the industry.

I really think the day is coming when they will be kicked out of the PNG,outed,and not allowed to submit coins...

One doctor,who I see at lots of shows keeps asking me why I don't buy coins from him anymore

Larry >>

Since you're going in with your eyes open, I would say it comes down to a personal decision of whether you want to join and work from the inside for change, or not join out of principle. IMO, and that of Legend, the latter route was the way to go. We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership.

I also found the results of the last PNG official grading company bid quite suspicious on the face of things. How two independent bids ended up in the exact same format with a round number difference is very mysterious.

Julian · February 26, 2010 2:45AM

The fees on the PNG website are just the application fees. The annual dues are higher and should be listed on the application. I am not sure exactly what they are at this time.

As for Mark's points:
What difference does it make that PNG is the "largest organization of professional numismatists"?

It makes a difference in as much as it is a professional organization. If it is good enough for most of the best, it should be good enough to join.

I have heard of one or more members dropping out after losing an arbitration, thus negating the effects of the ruling.

These people thought that they were not properly adjudicated. It is kind of like giving up your citizenship if you have a decision go against you.

Easier access to how many shows? - I thought the number was very small.

The PNG badge is widely accepted for admission to many of the nation's best numismatic exhibitions. Many of these require an accompanying ribbon, if you want early admission, but at least you do not have to get your picture taken all over again.

Aren't there members who are known (or widely thought) to be coin doctors?

I am unaware of members who are coin doctors. Please let me know if you know of any and I will see that the information is given to the proper people. Please do not send me the list of members who dip coins, however, as I am sure that all members have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

Unknown · February 26, 2010 3:04AM

This content has been removed.

lkeigwin · February 26, 2010 3:10AM

<< The fees on the PNG website are just the application fees. The annual dues are higher and should be listed on the application. I am not sure exactly what they are at this time. >>

The application doesn't list any fees. I have no doubt Julian is correct. It's just odd that this information is (plainly) stated on their website.
Lance.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2010 3:30AM

<< I well exceed the professional experience and financial requirements for full PNG membership. And considering the level of coins that I handle on a daily basis, the way that I run my business, and the manner in which I treat my clients, I would expect to be welcomed into the PNG. However, despite repeated requests from many colleagues over at least the past 15 years, and with all respect to Julian, I don't see any reason to join.

Regarding coin doctors, the first one I looked up is a member and is causing PCGS a great deal of trouble with Lincoln Cents. Other PNG members that I know personally have financed coin doctors, subcontracted work to them, or openly tolerated coin doctoring in their companies. This is first hand knowledge, not gossip.

Item #7 from the "PNG Code of Ethics" states:
"To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.". Doctored coins have been either physically or chemically altered with the purpose to commit fraud. The PNG has failed to take this issue seriously.

Furthermore, item #14 states:
"To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>

Fairlaneman · February 26, 2010 3:36AM

Larry here is a "Choice BU" coin I just received from a PNG member. Pretty cool huh? Its going back Monday. No mention at all that the coin is cleaned like crazy. Yep, I trust them.

Ken

coinguy1 · February 26, 2010 3:41AM

<< ...Furthermore, item #14 states:
"To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>

Joe, depending upon how they were worded, I don't think that making your opinions known on those subjects would amount to "defamation". or that they would be fairly characterized as "for commercial advantage".

PQpeace · February 26, 2010 3:52AM

TDN,
Didn't I see Laura at the last PNG lunch somewhere ??
She was all dressed up

I would like to talk to you about certain things off the board,
Larry

telephoto1 · February 26, 2010 5:16AM

Just to clear up the fee thing- this is from the PNG site:

Affiliate Membership- Open to anyone, $100 application fee, after which you get invoiced $200 for first year's dues assuming you get accepted.

Associate Membership- Min. age 21, background check, must have $25,000 numismatic net worth with notarized statement confirming same, min. 2 yrs. experience as a professional numismatist, $200 application fee, no mention of actual dues cost.

Full Membership- min. age 21, background check, min. 5 years experience, $400 application fee, must have at least $250,000 notarized/confirmed numis. net worth at all times & be recommended by at least 2 other full members, no mention of annual dues cost on site (but rumored to be at least $1000/yr. now).

As far as the 5 free walkthrough submissions, they are with NGC and that comes with full membership only.

PQpeace · February 26, 2010 5:31AM

"As far as the 5 free walkthrough submissions, they are with NGC and that comes with full membership only.

Too bad NGC.. I sure don't agree with that...

telephoto1 · February 26, 2010 5:35AM

NGC is their "official" service...

leothelyon · February 26, 2010 5:37AM

<< I well exceed the professional experience and financial requirements for full PNG membership. And considering the level of coins that I handle on a daily basis, the way that I run my business, and the manner in which I treat my clients, I would expect to be welcomed into the PNG. However, despite repeated requests from many colleagues over at least the past 15 years, and with all respect to Julian, I don't see any reason to join.

Regarding coin doctors, the first one I looked up is a member and is causing PCGS a great deal of trouble with Lincoln Cents. Other PNG members that I know personally have financed coin doctors, subcontracted work to them, or openly tolerated coin doctoring in their companies. This is first hand knowledge, not gossip.

Item #7 from the "PNG Code of Ethics" states:
"To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.". Doctored coins have been either physically or chemically altered with the purpose to commit fraud. The PNG has failed to take this issue seriously.

Furthermore, item #14 states:
"To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>

Having attended many PNG sponsered coin shows here in the midwest, I'll never understand why the so called GOOD sellers allow bad sellers to sell coins to the public. Whenever I see a dealer, many I have come to know throughout the years, selling coins for 10 to 100X their real value, I've often wondered why the good sellers allow these shysters to sell along side of them. If I can walk up to a table and see the theivery going on, why can't others, especially these so called good dealers. It doesn't take long to cover a 200 table show when I'm skipping half of them as I shop.
There must be a PNG hidden rule that allows any dealer that can ripped the public with the sale of junk, why they must be high-fiving each other after every show.
I have personally accused a few of these dealers of ripping the public only to be hounded by other dealers. They somehow signal each other whenever they don't want to deal with someone and there they come to crowd you out. And yet, these so called good dealers allow this carnage to continue. I'm quite sure they're all aware of it. With these type of hoodlums allowed to operate at a public coin show, it's not even safe to enter these shows anymore.

Leo

PerryHall · February 26, 2010 5:43AM

<< 

<< What does membership cost? >>

Full membership: $400, Associate membership: $200, Affiliate membership: $100

Membership requirements
Lance. >>

Is Associate Membership for wannabe coin dealers?

coinguy1 · February 26, 2010 5:43AM

<< 

<< I well exceed the professional experience and financial requirements for full PNG membership. And considering the level of coins that I handle on a daily basis, the way that I run my business, and the manner in which I treat my clients, I would expect to be welcomed into the PNG. However, despite repeated requests from many colleagues over at least the past 15 years, and with all respect to Julian, I don't see any reason to join.

Regarding coin doctors, the first one I looked up is a member and is causing PCGS a great deal of trouble with Lincoln Cents. Other PNG members that I know personally have financed coin doctors, subcontracted work to them, or openly tolerated coin doctoring in their companies. This is first hand knowledge, not gossip.

Item #7 from the "PNG Code of Ethics" states:
"To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.". Doctored coins have been either physically or chemically altered with the purpose to commit fraud. The PNG has failed to take this issue seriously.

Furthermore, item #14 states:
"To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage." As Mark Salzberg is a PNG member, and NGC and NCS are official services of the PNG, joining the PNG would mean that I could no longer criticize NGC's liberal grading practices nor argue against the irreplaceable coins that have been ruined by NCS in exchange for a "conservation" fee. >>

Having attended many PNG sponsered coin shows here in the midwest, I'll never understand why the so called GOOD sellers allow bad sellers to sell coins to the public. Whenever I see a dealer, many I have come to know throughout the years, selling coins for 10 to 100X their real value, I've often wondered why the good sellers allow these shysters to sell along side of them. If I can walk up to a table and see the theivery going on, why can't others, especially these so called good dealers. It doesn't take long to cover a 200 table show when I'm skipping half of them as I shop.
There must be a PNG hidden rule that allows any dealer that can ripped the public with the sale of junk, why they must be high-fiving each other after every show.
I have personally accused a few of these dealers of ripping the public only to be hounded by other dealers. They somehow signal each other whenever they don't want to deal with someone and there they come to crowd you out. And yet, these so called good dealers allow this carnage to continue. I'm quite sure they're all aware of it. With these type of hoodlums allowed to operate at a public coin show, it's not even safe to enter these shows anymore.

Leo >>

If the dealers you have a probelm with aren't doing anything illegal, how do you propose they (legally) be prohibited from selling coins at shows?

leothelyon · February 26, 2010 5:47AM

To solve such problems, every attendee should be allowed to rate and give a review of a dealer through a system that allows them to make their complaints known. And those dealer who have totaled the greater number of complaints should be notified that they are on watch or probation. And that they must set up in some secluded or last sections of a coin show. Until they can clean up their acts, they should be the last dealers or suspended from attending a show. Right now, there is nothing in place to rate or file complaints about these dealers. The fact is, too many of them are running the buisness and if a good seller tries to rock the boat, it likely backfires into their faces.

Leo

telephoto1 · February 26, 2010 5:49AM

<< Having attended many PNG sponsered coin shows here in the midwest, I'll never understand why the so called GOOD sellers allow bad sellers to sell coins to the public. Whenever I see a dealer, many I have come to know throughout the years, selling coins for 10 to 100X their real value, I've often wondered why the good sellers allow these shysters to sell along side of them. If I can walk up to a table and see the theivery going on, why can't others, especially these so called good dealers. It doesn't take long to cover a 200 table show when I'm skipping half of them as I shop.
There must be a PNG hidden rule that allows any dealer that can ripped the public with the sale of junk, why they must be high-fiving each other after every show.
I have personally accused a few of these dealers of ripping the public only to be hounded by other dealers. They somehow signal each other whenever they don't want to deal with someone and there they come to crowd you out. And yet, these so called good dealers allow this carnage to continue. I'm quite sure they're all aware of it. With these type of hoodlums allowed to operate at a public coin show, it's not even safe to enter these shows anymore.

Leo >>

Exaggerate or generalize much there, Leo?
Gee, can't understand why they wouldn't want to deal with someone with such a sunny attitude.

nankraut · February 26, 2010 7:19AM

<< Larry here is a "Choice BU" coin I just received from a PNG member. Pretty cool huh? Its going back Monday. No mention at all that the coin is cleaned like crazy. Yep, I trust them.

Ken >>

"choice BU", eh? WOWZER!!

MrEureka · February 26, 2010 7:37AM

I would say it comes down to a personal decision of whether you want to join and work from the inside for change, or not join out of principle. IMO, and that of Legend, the latter route was the way to go. We want nothing to do with PNG until they clean up their membership.

Bruce - Your concerns are valid, but there's no reason why you can't work from both the inside and outside, and I wish you and Laura would do just that.

As for myself, I am a member. Frankly, I don't know that it's a "good deal" based on the current benefits. It's a close call. But when you consider the things they could accomplish in the future, and the ease with which I can get my concerns and suggestions heard if I choose to make the effort, joining is a no-brainer. In effect, I'm willing to invest in the organization for their future potential. In fact, as a member of the dealer community, I consider it an obligation.

telephoto1 · February 26, 2010 7:45AM

Would any current PNG members care to enlighten us as to the exact cost of dues for associate and full membership?

BigE · February 26, 2010 7:56AM

I bet Leo's idea would be agreeable if they made a place in the corner for pain in the butt collectors also

------------BigE

RYK · February 26, 2010 8:13AM

I think I am going to join the PNG.

Barry · February 26, 2010 8:56AM

<< As a collector, I once held the PNG and PNG dealers in extremely high esteem. As I gained more experience, my opinion has changed. There are good PNG dealers and bad PNG dealers. There are good non-PNG dealers and bad non-PNG dealers. Working with a PNG dealer does not invoke the confidence in me that it once did, all other factors being equal.

Julian offers some compelling reasons to join, from a dealer's perspective, and I have no doubt that these are worthwhile. I am offering my opinion from a collector's perspective. >>

Agree with RYK. There is a PNG dealer in his hometown who I managed to get banned from Ebay for 30 days for shill bidding. Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that.

illini420 · February 26, 2010 9:19AM

As a collector, whether or not a dealer pretty much just pays for a membership in an organization doesn't matter to me at all.

PerryHall · February 26, 2010 9:34AM

<< Just like being a member of the ANA means nothing in terms of ethics, contrary to "bid with confidence" and hokey lines like that. >>

Not true. If the ANA gets legitimate complaints against a member dealer, they will boot him. If you don't believe me, ask Ken Pines who owns Coast to Coast Coins.

To Join PNG ? or NOT to Join ??

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

Leave a Comment