Help please.. 1807 Capped Bust 1/2 dollar... O-111 R6? Could it really be?!

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 5:14AM

I've been sitting here for an hour now with my Overton 3rd ed. book, and this really looks like it can't be anything BUT the O-111 R.6

What does everyone think this attribution is?
Several of the features seem too worn to tell, but the thing I keep going back to is the left base of the 1
which seems to rule of the usual suspects, O-112 and the O-114. The stars don't look small to me, and
I see no die crack under the chin....So that only leaves one variety!
The B in Liberty is very very faint and it would be a guess to see if the top of the B is complete...any ribbing in the L?
Hard to say by the naked eye, but look at the first very large pic below...do you also see ribbing in the L?
I can't tell anything about the 50 on the reverse nor about a die defect below the bottom arrow.

stman · February 22, 2010 5:23AM

I don't see the left serif on the "1" there. So of the 4 die pairings that leaves the small stars O113..... which it sure doesn't look like the small stars. I don't see evidence of a beard for the 111a or O-111b, but it could have been very faint (O-111a) and worn off. Otherwise you may have a winner.

fishteeth · February 22, 2010 5:25AM

looks like a small stars to me

Quarternut · February 22, 2010 5:32AM

It can not be the small stars as the TI relationship is wrong on the reverse scroll and legend.

All indicators are correct for the O-111, both obverse and reverse. The only issue would be whether or not it is actually the very rare prime or not. Due to the immense amount of wear, any light die crack would most likely be worn away.

Regardless, it is still a tough R-4 at the worst or an even tougher R-6 at the best.

Congratulations!

QN

stman · February 22, 2010 5:33AM

<< looks like a small stars to me >>

Here is a well circulated small stars O-113. Notice how much smaller and where they sit on this example.

Lewy · February 22, 2010 5:33AM

The only variety that the T & I matches up with is O-113. It is O-113.

Quarternut · February 22, 2010 5:37AM

Lewy,

Look at the relationship between the E in STATES and the B in PLURIBUS. You will see that it can not be the O-113, but is the O-111.

QN

fishteeth · February 22, 2010 5:37AM

the T/I relationship looks like the small stars in this post

small stars

stman · February 22, 2010 5:39AM

There is no question in my mind that it is O-111. Now whether the beard is worn off (which I suspect) or not we can't tell from here. Either way you have a tough coin.

Quarternut · February 22, 2010 5:39AM

<< the T/I relationship looks like the small stars in this post

small stars >>

Fishteeth, See my previous post...

You have to look at more than just the TI or even the SS relationship sometimes to tell dies apart.

QN

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 5:40AM

Great. So, now to decide if there is some obscure way to differentiate the O-111 and O-111a in a heavily worn state!

stman · February 22, 2010 5:42AM

Messed up quotes, next please

stman · February 22, 2010 5:45AM

<<

Great. So, now to decide if there is some obscure way to differentiate the O-111 and O-111a in a heavily worn state! >>

To start off with if you haven't done so already..... just give it a hard evil eye from all angles under good magnification and light.

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 5:47AM

Quarternut · February 22, 2010 5:52AM

After further review...I now think it is an O-113!

Work with me here...The F in OF is low on the O-113, as is the OP's coin. The OF is even at the base on the O-111.

The right upright of the U in PLURIBUS is centered under the upright of the F on the O-113 and it is to the right of the upright on the O-111.

Therefore I am sorry but it is really an O-113.

Thanks for the challenge though!

QN

maibockaddict · February 22, 2010 5:52AM

that is Absolutely and Definitely a 113 guys.

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 5:54AM

Wow, what? So it's a small stars? Really?!

Quarternut · February 22, 2010 5:55AM

<< Wow, what? So it's a small stars? Really?! >>

Yep! Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

QN

maibockaddict · February 22, 2010 5:57AM

Not that bad...it is the most valuable 1807 other than the 111...

mozin · February 22, 2010 6:11AM

Lets make it simple. On the O-111, the 50-C spacing and the C-arrowhead spacing is about the same. On the O-113, the 50-C spacing is very noticeably larger.

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 6:13AM

I must admit, I'm rather surprised because I just can't really see small stars.

stman · February 22, 2010 6:15AM

I'll defer to Quarternut, he knows more than me even though all I did for years was the 1807 CBH. First time I been wrong on these

Although I've not seen a small stars O-113 look like this so far.

coin22lover · February 22, 2010 6:16AM

<< Lets make it simple. On the O-111, the 50-C spacing and the C-arrowhead spacing is about the same. On the O-113, the 50-C spacing is very noticeably larger. >>

You are quite correct. I see that now.

But wait. Going waaaaay out on a limb now... Could this be a new variety (one of those "newly discovered die marriages"?) I just needed to throw that out there

fishteeth · February 22, 2010 6:25AM

the possition of star 7 to the headband was my attribution point
and the 50 C on reverse

seemyauction · February 22, 2010 10:32AM

yours is the O-113 R2 the only 1807 with that T to I

its not the late Die State you would still be able to see the Reverse Die Crack
Borrowed JRocco's 1807 O-113a photo for this

coin22lover · February 23, 2010 8:10AM

TTT

Any more discussion? This one is just driving me absolutely crazy! I can't see small stars no matter how hard I try (though the other features are present). I am almost obsessed with this coin at this point -- Could this be one of the infamous "previously undiscovered die marriages"?

fishteeth · February 23, 2010 8:13AM

I think the large ammount of wear has caused the stars to flatten out and look larger

coin22lover · February 23, 2010 8:26AM

<< I think the large ammount of wear has caused the stars to flatten out and look larger >>

Perhaps I'm a victim of wishful thinking.

Unknown · February 23, 2010 8:29AM

This content has been removed.

LoveMyLiberty · February 23, 2010 8:35AM

<< I must admit, I'm rather surprised because I just can't really see small stars. >>

mozin · February 23, 2010 8:40AM

On the 1807 Small Stars, look how far the stars are from the dentils, not even close to the star-dentil spacing on the Large Star version.

zap1111 · February 26, 2010 1:10PM

An interesting thread - thanks, everyone.

I also count the denticles under the date as a diagnostic. The 0.111 has 12 denticles within the span of the left edge of the 1 and the right edge of the 7. The 0.112 has 14, the 0.113 (small stars) has 16 and the 0.114 has 13. Sometimes you can make out the denticles when you can't make out star-denticle position, T-I relationship and the other diagnostics.

What fun to eventually snare a O.111!! Good luck, everyone!
zap

zap1111 · February 26, 2010 2:38PM

Coin22 lover

BTW, your coin looks VERY familiar. Below are my very poor images of a coin I owned for a few years, purchased in 2006 on ebay for the very reasons you are looking at the coin now. (It took me a while to find the old images). The original seller's images were a little unclear but the price was quite reasonable for the chance at an O.111 so I bit. I sold the coin at a Minneapolis coin show in October 2009, I believe. Pretty crazy to see it show up in a thread - if anything, it led to an interesting discussion!
zap

seemyauction · February 26, 2010 8:23PM

coin22lover, one of the things I like to do is figure out the Obverse Die and the Reverse Die. The T to I on the reverse confirms it to be Reverse Die I. To prove the Obverse Die look at the photo below, a straight edge across the points of start 13 should prove its a small stars

abitofthisabitofthat · February 26, 2010 10:11PM

What a great thread. It is really nice to know that I am not the only one who occasionally ends up scratching my head wondering about a coin even with a good loupe and a few attribution guides in front of me.

Lewy · February 26, 2010 10:45PM

Seemy, that star / date relationship was very interesting. I wonder though, since the stars and dates were applied by hand, does this rule hold true on more than this one die? Great stuff here, I really like it.

lkeigwin · February 26, 2010 11:12PM

Just this die.

I am not crazy about that diagnostic because a very slight angle error at the star would throw off the results and conclusion (even though I think it has been drawn accurately here).
Lance.

Help please.. 1807 Capped Bust 1/2 dollar... O-111 R6? Could it really be?!

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