Take a look at this PSA 10..

olb31 · February 5, 2010 1:45AM

I am not good at doing links (quite ignorant, in fact). But someone has listed on EBAY,a 1980 Rickey Henderson Topps PSA 10. If that is 10 then I have several more just like it, i would be glad to sell to any of you for $1,000 a piece. Maybe someone could find it and post to show to everyone.

jeffcbay · February 5, 2010 1:50AM

HOLY CRAP (pun intended)

jeffcbay · February 5, 2010 1:50AM

That ebay looks familiar to me... who is that?

jeffcbay · February 5, 2010 1:51AM

jeffcbay · February 5, 2010 1:53AM

This card is a Pop 10 out of 9,943 total subbed... I'm shocked that it's only listed at $10,000. If that card was actually centered, it would sell in two seconds.

itzagoner · February 5, 2010 2:01AM

good time to go fishin'.

mtcards · February 5, 2010 2:12AM

NO WAY. Nice Psa 9!!

Grader must have been looking at that one cross-eyed and saw 50/50 centering

storm888 · February 5, 2010 2:24AM

There are numerous threads here about that seller.

cu link

............................

That card is a junk "10."

WinPitcher · February 5, 2010 2:28AM

Our old friend Hank.

Tim brought that guy to our attention and of course that thread went to the crapper.

Steve

Reljac · February 5, 2010 2:37AM

My favorite part of the auction:

<< Excellent Centering! >>

UlyssesExtravaganza · February 5, 2010 2:47AM

This card was my white whale that got me back into the hobby. I soon realized though that probably any 10, while being 25-50x more expensive, than a 9, probably wasn't going to be significantly better. This card is really tough to get in good shape. I've pulled a number from vending boxes and packs and centering is bad, print spots are an issue, etc. I pretty much gave up and moved on. Also thought I could get it a lot cheaper. The same seller listed a PSA 9 of the card and was pitching it by saying how close it was to his 10. I thought that was a nice way to sell his 9 but not such a good way to sell the 10.

jeffcbay · February 5, 2010 3:08AM

<< My favorite part of the auction:

<< Excellent Centering! >>

>>

Yeah, "excellent" as in EX PSA 5 centering.

DeutscherGeist · February 5, 2010 4:29AM

Its a nice card, very nice actually. Even a PSA 10 is allowed to be off center, I think like 45-55 or 40-60 (can't remember exactly, but dead center was not a requirement).
It would be an easy PSA 9. However, a PSA 9 sells for $300 on a very good day, and this PSA 10 is going to be close to 5 figures? Its not worth the difference unless more information is provided. This is why I respect how vintage bills are graded. Is the centering the only issue on the card? Does it have chipping and print marks any less than a typical 9?

All we can see is the centering, but I wonder if the picture focus and quality is top notch, which is hard to determine from an image on a computer.

Because a PSA 10 commands so much more money, it has to be dead centered, otherwise, I can find a PSA 9 like that.

Besides, this seller is shady.

Reljac · February 5, 2010 5:50AM

45-55 is the minimum for ten.

Blacklabelsociety · February 5, 2010 5:59AM

<< 45-55 is the minimum for ten. >>

40-60 according to my SMR

storm888 · February 5, 2010 6:19AM

Card grading is simply waaaaayy behind stamp and currency grading.

When card grading catches up - and abandons "market grading" - the
folks who bought the junk centered "GEM MINT 10s" will be VERY sad.

....

Start reading at page 10, to learn how a mature grading system looks at centering.

PSE Grading

.........

To me, if a card does not have four visually equal margins, it simply
does NOT belong in a GEM MINT 10 slab. No exceptions.

Reljac · February 5, 2010 6:22AM

<< 

<< 45-55 is the minimum for ten. >>

40-60 according to my SMR >>

guess I never read the second part... but brings up an interesting point:

"The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front"

how are we to know which amount is the one the card can't exceed?

gemint · February 5, 2010 6:26AM

I didn't measure but I'm sure the card fits the outside centering guidelines for a 10. It looks worse because part of the left border is obscured by the inside lip of the holder. That's why I always make sure my cards are relatively centered in the holder when I scan them. You can make a card look much more O/C if you scan it with it sitting against the rail of the holder on either side. If I get some time this weekend, I'll try to scan an example of the same card with it centered in the holder and then with it sitting to one side.

WinPitcher · February 5, 2010 6:27AM

PSA can call whatever they want a 10.

To me, a 10 has eye appeal something that card lacks.

I want my 10's to appear centered at first glance.

Back in the day I'd have called a card like that near mint.

Mint cards appeared centered at first glance and Gem Mint were in fact centered.

Of course it should go without saying that Mint and Gem mint also had all

the other attributes that a mint card should have, color, sharp corners and a back that was also centered.

With the dollars that guy is asking I would never pay that, heck I'd prolly not pay that price if it met my

criteria of what a Gem Mint card is.

Storm is so right when he says those that bought these types of 10's will one day regret it.

I'd sell them, but would not buy them.

Steve

WinPitcher · February 5, 2010 6:29AM

Gem mint makes a good point, however even with that it's still not centered.

Steve

nightcrawler · February 5, 2010 6:45AM

I agree the card is a little OC, but doesn't the slight tilt make up for that?

UlyssesExtravaganza · February 5, 2010 7:06AM

The centering is good but you'd want better if you're paying that much extra for a PSA 10. The part that bothers me which you see on so many of these cards is you don't have really strong vibrant color and gloss. You can see on this one the blue border is faded/faint and like so many of them they look like a xerox copy of a card. I sold an 8 that might have better centering than this one and the same pitiful faded image. I don't know if we're going to see a REAL 10 surface. So few out there that if somebody has the good one, they might be set on keeping it. My $39 centered Henderson

Blacklabelsociety · February 5, 2010 8:04AM

<< Gem mint makes a good point, however even with that it's still not centered.

Steve >>

Card in the picture looks centered to me. Why should a card have to be perfect 50/50 all around to be a 10? sharp edges, corners, surface, color, should be more important imo.

bking · February 5, 2010 8:06AM

<< 

<< Gem mint makes a good point, however even with that it's still not centered.

Steve >>

Card in the picture looks centered to me. Why should a card have to be perfect 50/50 all around to be a 10? sharp edges, corners, surface, color, should be more important imo. >>

Centering still has to be 40/60 or better on the front for a 10, doesn't it?

ElToroLoco · February 5, 2010 8:33AM

The centering hits you like a bag of cement in a snowball fight. The image quality also looks like it's suffering. This must have been a Red Zone sub.

WinPitcher · February 5, 2010 8:35AM

Bking yes for PSA, I was speaking only of my own standards.

Steve

bbuckner22 · February 5, 2010 1:37PM

A little off center for 5 figures, big deal. The guys is offering FREE shipping. I agree with Storm, a gem mint PSA 10 should be dead centered.

grote15 · February 5, 2010 1:42PM

Centering is essentially the first thing you notice when looking at a card. And that one does not look gem mint no matter how you slice it.

Blackborder · February 5, 2010 2:29PM

mtcards · February 6, 2010 12:35AM

I know it was mentioned in a previous thread, but this card is the exact reason why I think a modified grading scale would be good, not that it would work or be economically viable..(I remember the movie Falling down with the dude carrying the sign in front of the bank that said "Not Economically Viable")

Only card that have reached "9" grading would qualify for the decimal grades.

I agree that any 10 should be 50/50 centering..if it is 49/51, then it would be 9.9, still a great card, but not a 10.

This Henderson would at best get a 9.1 because of the centering

fandango · February 7, 2010 12:28AM

why is the label "crinkled"?

look at the back, the blue colored label looks "crinkled".....i have never seen a crinkled label INSIDE a slab....

fandango · February 7, 2010 12:48AM

just my observation

Brick · February 7, 2010 12:59AM

<< why is the label "crinkled"?

look at the back, the blue colored label looks "crinkled".....i have never seen a crinkled label INSIDE a slab.... >>

That would just frost me. But then, why wag your finger at anyone?

otwcards · February 7, 2010 1:13AM

<< That would just frost me. But then, why wag your finger at anyone? >>

I remember when it was a game and everyone understood rules . . .

Anyway, I cannot believe how many conspiracy theories surface every time a significant modern card comes to auction. Whether Molitor/Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Rickey Henderson, etc, it seems that someone has to find a reason to tear down the card, the seller, the submitter or PSA. Get a grip folks, a PSA 10 does not need to be perfect regardless of what you expect the standards to be.

Sure, if I am spending stupid money on a card that is high grade, I would want it to meet the standard that I believe is appropriate for the grade, but I understand that there is tolerance and thresholds that are in place. For one, I am so sick and tired of those that cannot fathom the fact that a card DOES NOT have to be centered perfectly to be in a PSA 10 holder. GEM MINT does not have to be a PERFECT card by simple definition!

The cards in question USUALLY fall within the parameters of the grade despite the outcry and finger pointing of others.

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2010 1:20AM

the left side of the card is tucked under the PSA case ridge...could this make the card "appear" to be more off center than it really is?

edit to add: i still don't think it's a 10

fandango · February 7, 2010 1:22AM

i looked at about 500 of my PSA cards and NONE of them has a wrinkled appearance...

im just pointing out a fact about a picture, im sure there is a reasonable explanation....

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2010 1:26AM

<< i looked at about 500 of my PSA cards and NONE of them has a wrinkled appearance...

im just pointing out a fact about a picture, im sure there is a reasonable explanation.... >>

a lot of my PSA flips have the wrinkle, and the cards were subbed by me to PSA.

sportscardtheory · February 7, 2010 1:28AM

Anyone with at least one eye can see that an off-centered card isn't GEM MINT. It's clearly a misuse of the term. I would think a GEM MINT card should look GEM MINT, otherwise it's not GEM MINT.

otwcards · February 7, 2010 1:41AM

<< i looked at about 500 of my PSA cards and NONE of them has a wrinkled appearance...

im just pointing out a fact about a picture, im sure there is a reasonable explanation.... >>

Scott,

The "wrinkling" that you note is actually pretty common. Sometimes the flips are loose and sometimes tight in the flip channel or flip cavity. When they're tight, they tend to buckle or wrinkle like on the back of the card you've questioned.

JHS5120 · February 7, 2010 3:10AM

<< I remember when it was a game and everyone understood rules . . .

Anyway, I cannot believe how many conspiracy theories surface every time a significant modern card comes to auction. Whether Molitor/Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Rickey Henderson, etc, it seems that someone has to find a reason to tear down the card, the seller, the submitter or PSA. Get a grip folks, a PSA 10 does not need to be perfect regardless of what you expect the standards to be.

Sure, if I am spending stupid money on a card that is high grade, I would want it to meet the standard that I believe is appropriate for the grade, but I understand that there is tolerance and thresholds that are in place. For one, I am so sick and tired of those that cannot fathom the fact that a card DOES NOT have to be centered perfectly to be in a PSA 10 holder. GEM MINT does not have to be a PERFECT card by simple definition!

The cards in question USUALLY fall within the parameters of the grade despite the outcry and finger pointing of others. >>

I agree!!

Stop bashing this card it is beautiful. Yes, I have seen better looking tens but I have also seen worse. The card meets the required centering and the corners are perfect. It probably would be a grade a 9 9 times out of 10 if resubbed, but the seller was fortunate enough to get lucky with the card. Why bash someone because he is lucky? If any of you posted a poppage and you got a 10 when expecting a 9 we would all congradulate you not critize the card.

sportscardtheory · February 7, 2010 3:14AM

So if PSA starts subbing 7s and 8s as 10s, we are supposed to be happy for the submitter for getting such unwarranted grades and not be upset at the mockery of the grading purpose?

WinPitcher · February 7, 2010 3:24AM

<< remember when it was a game and everyone understood rules . . . Anyway, I cannot believe how many conspiracy theories surface every time a significant modern card comes to auction. Whether Molitor/Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Rickey Henderson, etc, it seems that someone has to find a reason to tear down the card, the seller, the submitter or PSA. Get a grip folks, a PSA 10 does not need to be perfect regardless of what you expect the standards to be. Sure, if I am spending stupid money on a card that is high grade, I would want it to meet the standard that I believe is appropriate for the grade, but I understand that there is tolerance and thresholds that are in place. For one, I am so sick and tired of those that cannot fathom the fact that a card DOES NOT have to be centered perfectly to be in a PSA 10 holder. GEM MINT does not have to be a PERFECT card by simple definition! The cards in question USUALLY fall within the parameters of the grade despite the outcry and finger pointing of others >>

Scott you said that perfectly.

Much more eloquent than my say earlier, which basically was the same point.

PSA can call whatever they want a 10, I can have my standards too.

Steve

otwcards · February 7, 2010 3:36AM

<< PSA can call whatever they want a 10, I can have my standards too. >>

Steve:

I'm not suggesting that PSA lower their standards or put cards in PSA 10's that do not meet the criteria.

I am stating that too many don't understand the difference between a PSA 10 that meets the standard and what they "think" a PSA 10 should be...

Give me ANY PSA 10 and I will find a flaw in it. Once people realize that PSA 10 GEM MINT cards do not have to be perfect and understand the definition of a GEM MINT card, then maybe there wouldn't be all of this hoopla all of the time.

storm888 · February 7, 2010 3:36AM

"...Get a grip folks, a PSA 10 does not need to be perfect regardless of what you expect the standards to be.....For one, I am so sick and tired of those that cannot fathom the fact that a card DOES NOT have to be centered perfectly to be in a PSA 10 holder...."

///////////////////////////////////////////////

As I have LONG predicted, "market grading" is well on the road to destroying
"card-grading 101." It is a system that benefits large sellers, AND harms retail
collectors. Yet, the peasants continue to line up to squander their money on
cards that will someday be heartily laughed at by a mature market ruled by
"card-grading 201/301."

Collectors need to get the bogus 60/40 and 55/45 nonsense out of their heads.
If they do not, their collections will be worth close to nada in out years.

....................

Paraphrasing PSE on stamp centering.........Simply substituting the words "paper
collectible" for the word "stamp."

"A (paper colectible) whose design is well centered within four nearly equal
margins is aesthetically more pleasing than one that is "off" on one or two sides.
Because of this (paper collectibles) with perfect, or near perfect centering have
traditionally sold for more money than those that are visibly off center."

"GEM: A gem centered (paper collectible) will have four visually equal
margins, and the margins will be at least slightly larger than the average margin
size for the issue.......Even after a a careful examination, it will be difficult or
impossible to visually pick a margin smaller or larger than the other three.
It will be a "boxed" (paper collectible)."

"SUPERB: If a (paper collectible) is visually perfectly centered, but the
margins are of only average or very slightly below average size, the centering
grade will be lowered to Superb."

And the liberal and opportunistic notions of what "centered" really means are
equally dramatically destroyed down the scale.

Read From Page 10 To Understand How ALL Paper Collectibles SHOULD Be Judged For Centering

.................
.........................

Doing it right with stamps did NOT come quickly.

For decades, my family made millions selling stamps to novice/intermediate/advanced
collectors using the much flawed and simplistic Brookman guidelines.

I was taught - as were ALL other stamp dealers of the period - each and every
weasel word and nonsensical explanation of what constituted "perfect centering."
It was a game of words designed to convince buyers that their eyes were lying.

EVERY dealer I EVER met during those years KNEW exactly what he was doing AND
his private stash included ONLY stamps that were truly GEM or SUPERB as the terms
are now defined by PSE's mature standards.

..............................

If the front-end of your car is alligned 60/40 or 55/45, you will be in the ditch. If
the window/door cutouts in your house are 60/40 or 55/45, you will be living with
critters and endure mighty cold winters. You would not tolerate FAKE explanations
of "centering" in ANY aspect of your life, yet you will spend THOUSANDS to buy a
paper-collectible that derives its grade from a pure FANTASY version of math.

When the reform comes - and it will come - that "10" that was graded pre-reform is
going to be a VERY tough sell. If you doubt that, ask some old tme stamp and
currency collectors what happened to the values of their collections when market
grading was dumped as a fraudulent scheme. (Though not completely reformed
yet, currency grading is a couple of light-years ahead of card grading. Stamp
grading has led the way in telling the TRUTH about what "centered" actually means.)

.............................

Stop using pixel counts and rulers. Look at the card. If it is visually unbalanced,
it is NOT centered and it is NOT a "GEM."

Dumping ALL aspects of market-grading will NOT preclude the collecting of ANY paper
collectible. It will merely prevent the sale of the false notion that the king's invisible
clothes are prefectly tailored.

Start using your eyes or you will be cheated.

....................

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2010 3:43AM

Grading companies should only authenticate the card and leave the grade up to the dealer/collector.

Patrick

Blackborder · February 7, 2010 3:44AM

You have a point about market grading. It crept into coins about 15 years ago, which is why the older slabbed coins are generally worth more than the same coin in a newer slab.

I really hope that doesn't start with card slabbing, although it probably has to some degree.

Market grading didn't destroy the coin hobby, but what it does is introduce a type of inflation that squeezes more dollars out of collectors while maintaining the illusion of a consistent market.

otwcards · February 7, 2010 3:47AM

Storm:

"Market Grading" is an issue, and this has been addressed by some that have established a secondary standard. I think it is obvious in the marketplace that there is a premium on the well centered graded card versus the same poorly centered graded card assigned the same grade level.

I certainly hope that there isn't an expansion of the grading system for cards. I really don't think the definition of a PSA 8.75 or SGC 94 NM/MT+ to MINT- would really make too much sense.

I do think that the buyers should be more aware and more astute with their buying habits and I think this is true of many of the higher end collectors. Sadly, there are too many collectors/investors that do not have such an awareness and will eventually be the victim of succumbing to buying the label and not the card.

WinPitcher · February 7, 2010 3:54AM

<< I really hope that doesn't start with card slabbing, although it probably has to some degree. >>

BB it has already started, trimmed cards that grade Authentic is one way and cards that are net graded

is simply another form of market acceptable grading.

Cards in Authentic slabs is IMO good for the hobby, this net grading nonsense is not.

Just because a card would have been a 8 or 9 if it had a certain centering does not IMO

make it a 7 or 6. Such cards to me would be better off graded as a 7 and left at that.

Then the buyer and seller could determine price.

Steve

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2010 4:05AM

<< 

<< I really hope that doesn't start with card slabbing, although it probably has to some degree. >>

BB it has already started, trimmed cards that grade Authentic is one way and cards that are net graded

is simply another form of market acceptable grading.

Cards in Authentic slabs is IMO good for the hobby, this net grading nonsense is not.

Just because a card would have been a 8 or 9 if it had a certain centering does not IMO

make it a 7 or 6. Such cards to me would be better off graded as a 7 and left at that.

Then the buyer and seller could determine price.

Steve >>

agree, I think "Authentic" with qualifiers on the flip would be the best way to go...leave grading to the individual. This would knock out most modern junk which really doesn't belong in slabs to begin with but would concentrate on the cards which really do belong in slabs.

WinPitcher · February 7, 2010 4:10AM

Patrick

That was not exactly my point, however you make a good one.

Let me try to explain it this way, say you have a card that in EX 5 (PSA) retails for 1000.00

The above example is a true EX card, I submit my way OC card and request NQ and it comes back as a 5.

I'd prefer the true EX card not the OC one (but that is just me) especially if I'm spending a grand.

Other people may be more concerned with corners and would prefer spending the grand on the OC no qualifiers requested card.

That is a choice they can make. I fully understand that some cards can rarely be found centered, but that is for another discussion.

JMHO

Steve

storm888 · February 7, 2010 4:41AM

"...I certainly hope that there isn't an expansion of the grading system for cards...."

///////////////////////////////////

A simple way to possibly avoid the demand for such an expansion is
to DROP the nonsense regarding what "centered" means.

Folks with average vision do not need a ruler or a grade number or a
nutty percentage formula to KNOW whether a card is "visually centered."

Centering is NOT "subjective," if the simple "visual standard" is applied.

Using a silly percentage scale to permit UNBALANCED cards to land
in GEM slabs flys in the face of both honesty and reality.

If, as all the TPGs state, "Eye Appeal is important," they should NOT
be telling me that a card which is "visually" UNBALANCED is a "GEM."
It insults my intelligence and causes me to lose confidence in the
process.

..................................

The mere FACT that numerous high-end dealers have established a
"secondary market" in "well centered" cards should send a STRONG
message to retail collectors/investors that "something is not right"
with some aspects of a system that has yielded to "market-grading"
pressures.

I am not pushing us towards a supply problem that would preclude the
collecting of "high grade" paper collectibles. There are plenty of nice
items for folks to acquire; folks don't need to be misled about what
"centered" means in order to keep them interested in paper collectibles.
The supply of those collectibles is NOT unwarrantedly reduced by telling
the truth about what "centered" means.

Goofy and few-serving redefinitions of "centered" ill-serve ALL collectors.
Using voodoo math to determine centering pushes us closer to demands
for reforms that could much boost the learning curves of new collectors and
deter future collectors from EVEN trying to learn the hobby.

That a few big sellers "demand" a supply of "GEM flips" should be irrelevant
to the TPGs. Such sellers should be told to grade their own cards if they want
fantasy grades. That MANY collectors/investors are buying the flip and not the
card, should worry every TPG; it can only bode ill for the future of the hobby.

..........

Take a look at this PSA 10..

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