Following the trail of a coin doctor is not all that difficult

kryptonitecomics · January 28, 2010 9:13PM

So once again a member has contacted me via Ebay to provide some evidence of a known coin doctor up to his old tricks so once again I am sharing this info with the members here and across the street. I have already been in touch with Ebay and they are investigating and hopefully they will review the evidence presented and take action to remove this sellers two accounts. This seller’s auctions have been discussed on here many times so it shouldn't be much of a shock to any long standing members and I assure you this is no witch hunt. The facts are the facts and as such are beyond contestation....this seller is one of the biggest coin doctors on Ebay and he routinely ruins 100's if not thousands of coins each year, which is why I feel the need to try to protect the coin collecting community and our historical assets....the coins themselves.

This seller's MO is to buy coins raw on Ebay and I assume shows, artificial tone them and them dump them back on Ebay by the dozens. One search of Rainbow in the coin section and you will be inundated with his rainbow toned garbage. I really doubt any knowledgable collecto would ever purchase coins from this seller but since we have novice and beginning collectors on this forum, it would seem to be a good place for this type of a warning thread.

Now on to the facts:

cwbyup1051 & cbest7777 on Ebay are the same person, both sellers located in crestline,CA population 500 so same coins,same city,same ebay layouts,same photos,same rainbow colored coins......

Buyer cwbyup1051 Bought this item:

1876 Seated Liberty halve Dollae silver US"Coin BU+

Artificially toned it and then listed it a week later here under his cbest7777 user ID:

1876 P SEATED LIBERTY HALF DOLLAR HIGH GRADE TONED

another example:

Buyer cwbyup1051 bought these:

1920 PILGRIM TERCENTENARY HALF DOLLAR XF-AU. VERY NICE!

1920 Pilgrim Commem Half Dollar Silver "B.U.(cleaned)"

Artificially toned one of them and then magically listed it under his cbest7777 user ID:

1920 PILGRAM TERCENTENARY HALF DOLLAR TONED

and finally:

UNC 1920 MAINE CENTENNIAL COMMEM HALF DOLLAR COIN NR

a little magic color dust.....and you get:

1920 MAINE CENTENNIAL COMMEM. HALF DOLLAR BU TONED

Personally I am all for a sellers making a buck buying and reselling on Ebay but to ruin coins in the process is just reprehensible

The policy on Ebay is very clear about disclosure as it relates to coins Ebay....

Per Ebay policy concerning the sale of coins: Sellers Must Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the coins or paper money.

Usually a seller may not know what's been done to a coin so they could use that as a loop hole, but if you are actively buying and altering the coins yourself then you must provide full disclosure to buyers, which this seller is not.

RyGuy · January 28, 2010 10:48PM

Thanks for the info! That Maine commem was really nice prior, can't believe what he did to it.

coinguy1 · January 28, 2010 10:51PM

Great job, Shane. I hope that Ebay will do something, based on the information you have presented. They should, as per their own rules, but that doesn't mean they will.

crypto79 · January 28, 2010 11:06PM

Looks like old envelope tone to me. What we should be is sad because clearly someone's good old grandfather died and his estate is being liquidated. Moment of silence............

LeeG · January 28, 2010 11:12PM

<< Following the trail of a coin doctor is not all that difficult >>

It's a shame that others who are aware of these coin doctors don't have the guts to out them.

lkeigwin · January 28, 2010 11:14PM

What a shame about those coins. The cowboy should be horse-whipped.
Lance.

notwilight · January 28, 2010 11:20PM

So this guy is easy to follow because he buys and sells in the same account? Most sellers are smart enough not to do that.

Can you give a link the ebay policy about disclosure on coins. I've never seen that.

Thanks,
Jerry

PawPaul · January 28, 2010 11:27PM

Good luck with your quest

kryptonitecomics · January 28, 2010 11:29PM

Sure Jerry....

Under the additional information section:

Ebay rules for selling coins and currency

Guidelines for coins and paper money sellers:

- Include all relevant information that is known about the coins or paper money; for example their origin, date of issue, and condition.

- Include a clear picture of the actual coin or paper money item that is being offered for sale.

- Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the coins or paper money.

- Specifically identify every individual coin or paper money item listed to avoid misunderstandings about the nature of the items.

- If you're unsure of the origin or authenticity of the coins or paper money, state this clearly in the description.

For advice or information from other coins or paper money enthusiasts, visit eBay's Coins & Paper Money Discussion Board.

In addition Ebay sent me a different link I hadn't seen before to report coin specific policy violations so I will provide that link as well:

We rely on our members to submit reports of potentially counterfeit
coins and other listings that may violate the eBay Selling Coins policy.
If you happen to see any listings you may feel violate our Coins and
Currency policies, please feel free to report them via the following
link:

Report Coin policy violations

Please note that ONLY Coins and Currency violations should be reported
here. Other types of violations sent here will be delayed as they are
redirected to the appropriate department.

AUandAG · January 28, 2010 11:29PM

Alterations link on ebay

scroll down under additional information.
bob

SNMAN · January 28, 2010 11:35PM

great detective work

PTVETTER · January 28, 2010 11:39PM

My Guess is that ebay will look at how much money they will make and do little IF anything at all.

Stay tuned to ebay next week for:

Same bat ebay
same bat seller
same bat toned coins for sale!

kryptonitecomics · January 28, 2010 11:47PM

<< My Guess is that ebay will look at how much money they will make and do little IF anything at all.

Stay tuned to ebay next week for:

Same bat ebay
same bat seller
same bat toned coins for sale! >>

I don't want to agree with you but that's my feeling as well. I plan to continue to report the examples I find to Ebay even if they do nothing and maybe they will get tired of me

gsaguy · January 29, 2010 12:12AM

You guys remember the "swimmer" story from years ago.....a guy in the Bay Area doing the same thing....buying white coins on Ebay and then a few weeks later the same coins appearing again toned and being sold by him? He came here claiming he was innocent, but boy, did he get busted with actual photo evidence.

What a thread that was.

gsaguy · January 29, 2010 12:17AM

Here was one of them. Don't recall if it was THE thread.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=167297&highlight_key=y&keyword1=swimmer

yellowkid · January 29, 2010 12:38AM

If you get tired of coins you could always consider a second career as a private investigator!! Good work.

Peaceman · January 29, 2010 12:46AM

How do you tone a coin like that in a week?

To me it's easy to see that it is AT.

GSA... manofcoins that's a can of worms you could open...

shorecoll · January 29, 2010 1:04AM

I think you should contact Larry Shepherd and keep him abreast of this...see if the ANA/EBay agreement has any real benefit to collectors.

lcoopie · January 29, 2010 1:08AM

since ebay makes their money on a percentage of sales,
do you think they will aggressively check all potential sales?

coinguy1 · January 29, 2010 1:10AM

<< I think you should contact Larry Shepherd and keep him abreast of this...see if the ANA/EBay agreement has any real benefit to collectors. >>

I was under the impression that the agreement between the ANA and Ebay had ended quite some time ago.

Unknown · January 29, 2010 1:11AM

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ElKevvo · January 29, 2010 1:31AM

Too bad about those commems being ruined. Or any other coin for that matter. I will admit the toning he does I think would fool a lot of novice or inexperienced collectors or just someone who thinks they are getting a nice NT toned coin.

K

BaseballAbs · January 29, 2010 1:45AM

I know i am going to be banned for saying this, but it was his coin. He bought it. If he wants to tone it thats fine with me. He should however tell people that he has toned it. That needs to be made clear. Otherwise your selling something under false pretence. If proven then E-bay should do something about it. But he can do what ever he wants to his coins.

BaseballAbs · January 29, 2010 1:47AM

I could be wrong however. Once it leaves a few hands people would loose the information that it has been doctored. Okay the man needs to be punished!

pakasmom · January 29, 2010 2:00AM

Good job, Shane!

PonyExpress8 · January 29, 2010 2:13AM

Thanks for the info! That Maine commem was really nice prior, can't believe what he did to it.

I agree on the Maine as well. It had a very nice original look until this guy dipped and re-toned it with his thin pastels.

The other two examples aren't as significant since they appear to have been cleaned with problems before. But still I do not like nor support doctoring, disclosed or not on anything. It's just wrong!

Ebay....well I doubt they will do much. They are pretty much out of the auction business with the trends in their fees and pricing anyway.

An opportunity for someone else to come along and start up an active auction online business certainly exists as far away as Ebay has gotten from their roots and the model that made them successful to begin with.

kryptonitecomics · January 29, 2010 2:37AM

Here is even more of his carnage plus I have a lot of info on other coins he has bought and haven't shown up with the clown colors.....yet

1926 Oregon Trail Memorial Half Dollar

to this abomination...

1926 OREGON TRAIL HALF DOLLAR TONED ROTATED DIE

and he hit the mother load with this lot of commems:

9 Carver Washinton SILVER half dollars 1951 - 1954 UNC

now .... these

1952 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

1953 S Washington Carver Half Dollar BU+ Rainbow Toned

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar AU+ Rainbow Toned

1951 P Washington Carver Half Dollar Rainbow Toned

keets · January 29, 2010 2:40AM

i wonder if he used that "Toning Kit" that was all the rage on eBay a few years ago??

PawPaul · January 29, 2010 3:52AM

My Guess is that ebay will look at how much money they will make and do little IF anything at all.

My guess too.......sad

littlebear · January 29, 2010 4:00AM

That is some exquisite investigative work!! My hat's off to you for this expose. It is a great service to all of us! Thank you for your dedication!

Larry L.

NotSure · January 29, 2010 4:05AM

Funny that this seller comes up. I ran across some of this sellers offerings just a few days ago, and came across this listing of his. I never knew circulated coins could tone this 'nicely'. What he's doing, while not criminal (or is it?), is what I like to call 'numismatic maiming'. Seller just kills the coin for future generations, not to mention making it dead fugly.

Likely, and it has been said multiple times in this thread, the bay will do nothing about it, sadly (sadly for those that purchase these 'freaks').

Not having ever been a fan of toners, wouldn't it be rather obvious that the circulated coins he has have obviously been doctored, even to a newb? I mean, it's just not normal for a crusty coin to have this type of Crayola 'toning'.

edited to add: It's no wonder his listings are all private.

kryptonitecomics · January 29, 2010 4:12AM

I would love to get my hands on one of the coins to see what he is doing and see if by some miracle it's reversable via acetone etc but sadly I just can't see supporting his endeavor through bidding on his auctions no matter how curious I am......would just add fuel to the fire so to speak.

PawPaul · January 29, 2010 4:17AM

..I spent many , many frustrating hours attempting to inform eBay of policy violations, sellers of doctored coins, improper images, etc ..........

i don't believe they ever took action on any count ............ so I applaud you for trying to do the right thing ,

i myself gave up long ago

Unknown · January 29, 2010 4:19AM

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tydye · January 29, 2010 4:26AM

I dont think reporting to ebay is going to solve the problem. From ebay's standpoint what is he doing wrong? Nothing illegal. To most coin collectors it is unethical. Best bet is to educate as many collectors as possible about natural vs artificial toning.

edited to add that it is a real shame about that Maine.

coinguy1 · January 29, 2010 4:30AM

<< I dont think reporting to ebay is going to solve the problem. From ebay's standpoint what is he doing wrong? Nothing illegal. To most coin collectors it is unethical. Best bet is to educate as many collectors as possible about natural vs artificial toning.

edited to add that it is a real shame about that Maine. >>

Based on the Ebay language posted earlier in this thread, if the seller is altering coins and not including that information in his listings, it is against Ebay policy.

kryptonitecomics · January 29, 2010 4:30AM

<< I dont think reporting to ebay is going to solve the problem. From ebay's standpoint what is he doing wrong? Nothing illegal. To most coin collectors it is unethical. Best bet is to educate as many collectors as possible about natural vs artificial toning.

edited to add that it is a real shame about that Maine. >>

Well he is going against Ebay's rules on full disclosure with regards to coin and currency alterations so they should care.....but I won't hold my breath either

I will no longer stand idly by as these poor innocent coins are subjected to all manner of experiments.....poor babies

SoCalBigMark · January 29, 2010 4:40AM

I believe this guy sells tons of coins on the local bid boards, pretty stout lookin fellow.

PawPaul · January 29, 2010 5:02AM

the bigger they are , the harder they fall...........

and it's absolutly against eBay policy - but try and get them to act -go ahead and try - I dare you

dsessom · January 29, 2010 9:00AM

I was just looking for SLQ's and came across another one, same seller!

Poor SLQ! Looks like Walt Disney threw up on it!

crazyhounddog · January 29, 2010 9:39AM

That 1833 half dollar's a piece of work

and it's up over $100.00!
Your right , this guy has been at it for YEARS! He has destroyed more coins than Carter has pills and it really is
a sad thing all the way around. Good luck & good work as I for one would like to see it stop.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 29, 2010 10:21AM

We just won't type "tone" or "rainbow" into our ebay searches and we should be safe, huh ?

NotSure · March 4, 2010 1:10PM

I just had to bring this thread back up, as I referred this cwbyup1051 character on another forum, in regard to AT'ed coins. While making the post, I posted this gem that he had up for sale awhile back, and I also posted it in another thread here. This one caught my eye, and I just had to save it:

Well, after bringing this seller up on that other forum, and remembering all the 'rule bending/breaking' he's doing, it got me to thinking about what kind of BS excuse he'd use if I sent him a message asking why they aren't certified. Remember, I don't think they look nice at all (the attached image is an abomination, and he's simply killing coins), so, I sent him this very short, simple question:

"You have such beautifully toned coins....why aren't they certified??"

Simple enough, not demeaning him in any way, not letting on I'm 'onto' him...just acting like a newb, just acting stupid (some would say it's not an act, but I digress...lol).

To my utter surprise, he sends back a much more simple reply: "They have been intentionally toned."

I'm still stunned he'd admit that they are doctored so matter-of-factly. I would love to reply with "Why don't you disclose this in your description?", but I think I'll ask him if HE's doing it, as he hasn't actually admitted HE has personally doctored them

Just wanted to bring his response to light, seeing how he very obviously is violating the rule stating - Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the coins or paper money.

So, for those that are inclined to 'call him to the carpet', which it seems some of those that replied are inclined to do, I thought I'd shine a new light on this. He's selling coins that have been intentionally toned, yet not revealing it. I'm still taken aback that he was NOT defensive, didn't give some bull excuse, etc, and that he WAS very casual in his admission that the coins have, indeed, been doctored. I'll bring this back up after he answers my next round of questioning.

Boom · March 4, 2010 1:27PM

Said seller's toned coins are beyond ridiculous.

Damned shame!

stinkinlincoln · March 4, 2010 1:31PM

Good job getting all this pieced together. What a tool!

speety · March 4, 2010 1:46PM

<< GSA... manofcoins that's a can of worms you could open... >>

For what purpose? The guy has done his time and had to start over with very little credibility to his name to most people on here. He has earned respect back from many since the incident. He exposed a major hazard with toners found in rattlers (albeit he could have done it in a better way for sure...).

I don't know MoC personally, but I know when it's time to quit beating a dead horse.

Now back to the current doctor, where can I get my pitchfork and torch?

Bochiman · March 4, 2010 1:50PM

I'm not sure why you would post this before getting the "more information" that you are talking about.
One never knows who may be lurking/reading or may be sending notes to someone. If you are trying to get all the info you can, why not wait until you have it all then post it?

Oh well, one will do what they will ... good luck with it

NotSure · March 4, 2010 2:26PM

The reason I posted it is simple. He KNOWS and ADMITS they are INTENTIONALLY toned, and he knowingly sells them without disclosing this information. It matters not if he replies to any further questions, he has admitted to selling doctored coins.

SFBayArea · March 4, 2010 8:27PM

It's not a crime for him to ruin coins that he bought. Ever seen Brewster's Millions movie? He bought some unused rare stamp and used it to mail something. Unfortunately there needs to be more awareness about NT & AT coins on Ebay. These are things new collectors don't understand. It would take a long time for a novice collector to distinguish between the two. The doctor has found a loop hole & Ebay doesn't care since it's not against the law and they also make money from his sales. You should encourage Ebay to make buyers aware more about AT & NT coins and their relative coin values instead. Education is key. I have admit Cowboyup has gotten better at the AT coins. I remember his first ones were bad (always purple & blue in color - gased). Now he's able to do the whole rainbow and green color too. I admit I've done some color toning experiments on coins (I'm sure everyone here's tried at least once even just to understand how toning works) before but the NT rainbow look at gets graded by PCGS or NGC are very hard to duplicate. Right now, even NT ones get turned down. I couldn't do it.. neither can he. By the way.. I occasionally find someone's rainbow toning experiments on clad circulated Kennedy halves that I find. They look kinda cool but still look AT. It was obvious that some put a chemical on the surface. It doesn't look like Cowboyup's jobs though.

kryptonitecomics · March 4, 2010 9:40PM

He hasn't found a loop hole....he is 100% breaking Ebay's rules but we all know that as long as Ebay profits then they will turn a blind eye. I sent 3 notes to ebay on 3 separate occasions with before and after auction #'s that clearly proved that he was buying the coins on Ebay, artificially toning them and then reselling them on Ebay with no disclosure. As I suspected Ebay did absolutely nothing and of course they are not obligated to let me know the findings of there investigation...if they even investigated.

I am far more concerned with all the coins he is ruining then the fact that he is ripping people off....after all buyers have to take accountability for knowing what's real and whats not and if you are buying coins like that and you think they are real then you really shouldn't be buying toned coins.

kimber45ACP · March 4, 2010 11:16PM

I guess I need help to understand how you find out the buyer's ID.
I searched for cwbyup1051 in the community and found him and what he is selling,
but when I go to 1876 Seated Liberty halve Dollae silver US"Coin BU+
and look up who won the bid, I see "b***0". Shouldn't I see "c***1" instead?

Thanks

Following the trail of a coin doctor is not all that difficult

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