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Dealer crack out game Ebay misrepresentation
fastfreddie
Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
I watch coin auctions at various places. I was looking through my Teletrade history and noticed an 1861 SLQ NGC AU58 that I had seen recently. Turns out the coin is on Ebay represented by an unscrupulous seller as an MS63/4 coin with no mention of the crackout but instead words like fully original (which it is), choice uncirculated (which it is not per NGC). I sent the seller an email but he ignored my request to amend his listing. He just instead re-listed when it did not sell. It's out there right now for $509. This is criminal! It's one thing to buy a coin crack it and say it 'looks' MS but you must disclose what it was if you know. I have reported to Teletrade and Ebay but I have stuck out twice. Any suggestions? I though about emailing his past sales and telling them about his underhanded tricks. Any ideas, thoughts?
It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
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Im surprised its not listed as "part of my grandfathers collection..."
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Some listen and some don't
I felt sorry for the customer that showed me his 1932-S washingtson quarter that was AU.
He paid MS money because I said how much a MS coin would sell for at the shop.
if it grades at MS62 or higher at PCGS you would be very pleased. If it didn't would he then accept a return
and pay the shipping/handling and PCGS fees (since it would now be in plastic).
That might be a better start than an accusation. Then perhaps a dialog regarding it's past entombment at
NGC could be brought up. Is the seller an expert on the series? Maybe he knows something that the NGC
grader, who had 30 seconds with the coin, doesn't?
bob
<< <i>I watch coin auctions at various places. I was looking through my Teletrade history and noticed an 1861 SLQ NGC AU58 that I had seen recently. Turns out the coin is on Ebay represented by an unscrupulous seller as an MS63/4 coin with no mention of the crackout but instead words like fully original (which it is), choice uncirculated (which it is not per NGC). I sent the seller an email but he ignored my request to amend his listing. He just instead re-listed when it did not sell. It's out there right now for $509. This is criminal! It's one thing to buy a coin crack it and say it 'looks' MS but you must disclose what it was if you know. I have reported to Teletrade and Ebay but I have stuck out twice. Any suggestions? I though about emailing his past sales and telling them about his underhanded tricks. Any ideas, thoughts? >>
Welcome to real life. Remember that grading is an OPINION. The coin could be AU58 one day and MS62 the next day. The seller should mention the previous grade, but again, he/she is in the business of making money and
apparently that's more important to them than being honest.
Not much you can do, except avoid their auctions.
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<< <i>I agree it can upgrade on submission but to not mention the 58 crack out is like you said - scummy. >>
If he had upgraded the coin, would he be similarly obliged to disclose the prior grade?
<< <i>I didn't say I wanted it but noticed it was sold on Teletrade. I understand your suggestion but most dealers would laugh at such an offer. >>
My experience has been that a Good, Honest Dealer would NOT laugh at such a suggestion.
Someone running a scam would.
I once purchased a 28-S Peace Dollar from a reputable Dealer for MS62/63 Money which came back from PCGS as MS60. He promptly refunded my money which I promptly respent at his store for something else. Submission fee's are the responsibility of the submitter and not necessarily the seller or dealer.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Don't forget I can/will email his prior sales and tell them. >>
To which eBay and Teletrade will completely ignore you since it's not their business.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I like the crack-out misrepresentation game. It allows me to get way too much money for slabbed problem coins that someone will buy, crack out, and sell as not having a problem. Just got $1185 for a NGC AU-Details whizzed SVDB. People would not do this if it wasnt profitable. It is only profitable because there are people out there who are cheap and think they are smarter than the next guy. >>
I can't wait to do the same...wanna buy any? Are ya smart enough?
<< <i>Just one more reason to, let's say it all together, "Don't buy raw coins on eBay"
<< <i>
<< <i>Just one more reason to, let's say it all together, "Don't buy raw coins on eBay"
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>It is against ebay policy to state a grade for an uncertified coin. Just report it to ebay. If you post a link to the auction some of us might report it as well. >>
I am not sure how to link yet but the Ebay item # is 360229531471. I would give you the corresponding coin that sold on Teletrade but my passcode is at work. But I can tell you again it's an NGC AU58 1861 SLQ that origianly sold on 1-18 I believe auction #2799, lot 1312 but I am not 100% sure at the monent. You can check previous threads in the post as I previously listed it. I reported it to ebay but I did not see a category for stating a grade for an uncertified coin. And if you read his listing he says 63+++++ or 64 so does this really state a grade? Ebay responded with a link to their policy and the coin is still listed as such.
Thanks for your help.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just one more reason to, let's say it all together, "Don't buy raw coins on eBay"
There are plenty of good raw coins if the person selling is somewhat honest. I have had fairly good luck at picking out reputable sellers from scammers. My motto is always make sure the seller has a return policy!
<< <i>It is against ebay policy to state a grade for an uncertified coin. Just report it to ebay. If you post a link to the auction some of us might report it as well. >>
You cannot state a numeric grade in the title for a raw coin. In the body of the auction it's permitted.
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<< <i>
<< <i>It is against ebay policy to state a grade for an uncertified coin. Just report it to ebay. If you post a link to the auction some of us might report it as well. >>
I am not sure how to link yet but the Ebay item # is 360229531471. I would give you the corresponding coin that sold on Teletrade but my passcode is at work. But I can tell you again it's an NGC AU58 1861 SLQ that origianly sold on 1-18 I believe auction #2799, lot 1312 but I am not 100% sure at the monent. You can check previous threads in the post as I previously listed it. I reported it to ebay but I did not see a category for stating a grade for an uncertified coin. And if you read his listing he says 63+++++ or 64 so does this really state a grade? Ebay responded with a link to their policy and the coin is still listed as such.
Thanks for your help. >>
http://
www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2799&lot=1312
Let's try again with the Teletrade linked coin...
What difference does it make what it was once slabbed as? It isn't slabbed that now...in fact, if he were to call it a NGC AU-58 people would be even more up in arms. Prior opinions of a coin's grade are irrelevant once the plasic is gone. If the owner/seller thinks that it is an MS coin it is his right to say so. If you don't think that it is then it is your right not to buy it. It is NOT your right, though, to interfere with his auction.
<< <i>Once again, I probably hold a minority view. (Minority, but still, IMO, the right one.)
What difference does it make what it was once slabbed as? It isn't slabbed that now...in fact, if he were to call it a NGC AU-58 people would be even more up in arms. Prior opinions of a coin's grade are irrelevant once the plasic is gone. If the owner/seller thinks that it is an MS coin it is his right to say so. If you don't think that it is then it is your right not to buy it. It is NOT your right, though, to interfere with his auction. >>
I say it makes a world of difference if someone buys it with the intent on getting it slabbed. Chances are they are going to be greatly disappointed or angry upon the returned coin.
We all know what this dealer is trying to do. If if its so acceptable, then I just found a new hobby...buying nice for the grade 55's 58's or even genuine high AU coins and cracking them then listing as MS or Unc and who's the wiser. It's people like this who give the coin business a dirty reputation.
<< <i>This is criminal! >>
Careful. As it is not criminal, that statement borders on libel.
<< <i>Any suggestions? >>
Go file a lawsuit and let us know how it turns out.
<< <i>I though about emailing his past sales and telling them about his underhanded tricks. Any ideas, thoughts? >>
My thought is that pursuing this tactic would result in your eBay account getting rightfully bammed in short order. And my final thought is that this OP typifies a basic misconception on what TPGs represent and what they do not.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is criminal! >>
Careful. As it is not criminal, that statement borders on libel.
<< <i>Any suggestions? >>
Go file a lawsuit and let us know how it turns out.
<< <i>I though about emailing his past sales and telling them about his underhanded tricks. Any ideas, thoughts? >>
My thought is that pursuing this tactic would result in your eBay account getting rightfully bammed in short order. And my final thought is that this OP typifies a basic misconception on what TPGs represent and what they do not. >>
IF THE INTENT IS TO DEFRAUD THEN ITS CRIMINAL. NOW TO PROVE INTENT IS ANOTHER Story. Any Homer knows what's going on here. Do you only buy slabbed coins from certain dealers you do business and have never been ripped off? What gounds would I have for a lawsuit as I have not done business with this seller. Yes Ebay would probaly ban me for a while but it may be worthwhile to make my silly little point.
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, I probably hold a minority view. (Minority, but still, IMO, the right one.)
What difference does it make what it was once slabbed as? It isn't slabbed that now...in fact, if he were to call it a NGC AU-58 people would be even more up in arms. Prior opinions of a coin's grade are irrelevant once the plasic is gone. If the owner/seller thinks that it is an MS coin it is his right to say so. If you don't think that it is then it is your right not to buy it. It is NOT your right, though, to interfere with his auction. >>
I say it makes a world of difference if someone buys it with the intent on getting it slabbed. Chances are they are going to be greatly disappointed or angry upon the returned coin.
We all know what this dealer is trying to do. If if its so acceptable, then I just found a new hobby...buying nice for the grade 55's 58's or even genuine high AU coins and cracking them then listing as MS or Unc and who's the wiser. It's people like this who give the coin business a dirty reputation. >>
No, we don't all know what the dealer is trying to do. You have an opinion about it. You may even be right. However, you may also be wrong. As for your new hobby if you wish to do so that is YOUR right also--just as long as it is truely your impression that they are MS.
Concerning people who buy raw coins with the intent of getting them slabbed...one needs to go ahead and spend the money necessary to buy them already in the slab one wants. Otherwise, tough noughies, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
<< <i>IF THE INTENT IS TO DEFRAUD THEN ITS CRIMINAL. NOW TO PROVE INTENT IS ANOTHER Story. >>
There is no case for fraud therefore intent is moot. I challenge you to clearly state your case for fraudulent activity, without the use of caps lock.
<< <i>Any Homer knows what's going on here. Do you only buy slabbed coins from certain dealers you do business and have never been ripped off? >>
I buy slabbed and raw coins. And, I make mistakes along the way in my initial assessments, much the same as any buyer. I do not, however, feel "ripped off" by my mistakes.
<< <i>What gounds would I have for a lawsuit as I have not done business with this seller. >>
You seem intent on defaming him for stating his opinion, so buy the coin and prove fraud through a lawsuit. Anything else is really mere noise in the signal.
<< <i>Yes Ebay would probaly ban me for a while but it may be worthwhile to make my silly little point. >>
What point?
Are you going to cry fraud when a TPG changes their mind about the grade of a coin? They certainly don't state what the coin was previously graded on the new slab.
Are you going to cry fraud when TPG A grades a coin AU58, then TPG B grades the coin MS63 and subsequently TPG C grades the coin AU55?
Are you going to cry fraud when Buyer A buys a coin at auction in an AU58 slab because they think it is MS? Then sells said coin to Buyer B for AU money, who subsequently markets the coin as MS because believe they got a rip on an MS coin?
The only thing this homer can see going on here is an axe being ground.
If I were listing the coin and it looked MS I would just say MS and not try and assign a technical grade. If he truly thought is was MS then why wouldn't he state it came from a 58 holder. This lends a lot of credibility to a potential buyer. It maybe be risky, but I think it goes along way in establishing trust. If I had the coin for sale I would state that I broke it out because I believe it to be UNC and a 58 holder isn't doing it any good.
You know as well as I the differences between 62 and 64 are very subjective (and small) besides being numerically different by two points. There is a world of difference more bewteen 58 and 60. UNC is UNC and circulated is circulated. To buy a coin over the net and turn around and offer the next week as MS is nothing more than an oportunist trying to pull the wool over a newby's eyes.
My case for his subjective jump from 58 to 63/4 would be look at the skewed pop's and see how few get a 60. It either falls as 58 or starts at 62. This tells me there is more of a difference between circulated and UNC which is a common concensus between all the major TPG's in any US coin type! TPG's may get it wrong at times and seem at times to be conservative in grade but they don't miss by 5 or 6 points at that level of preservation.
<< <i>Come on! Should the auction house that sold these same coins and it is the same coin, say it was a lower grade before? Learn how to grade and be your own judge. Buy it if you like or dont buy it if you dont like it.
If they have the ability = yes. Some dealers do this and I can think of one with the initials of RU. There is no practical way a TPG is going to be able to track a coin from holder to holder. If they could it would make the pop. reports more reliable.
The difference you show in your photo's is the TPG's difference of opinion, nothing shady there. Don't forget there is a lot of goodwill that comes with a THG coin. A raw with a dealer's biased opinion is quite another - this is why TPG's have value to collectors. I agree, learn how to grade. I have. You know a 58 circ. can look real good over the net. Note the seller does not have enlarged photo's. Also note that he has ignored my request for additional close up pics.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, I probably hold a minority view. (Minority, but still, IMO, the right one.)
What difference does it make what it was once slabbed as? It isn't slabbed that now...in fact, if he were to call it a NGC AU-58 people would be even more up in arms. Prior opinions of a coin's grade are irrelevant once the plasic is gone. If the owner/seller thinks that it is an MS coin it is his right to say so. If you don't think that it is then it is your right not to buy it. It is NOT your right, though, to interfere with his auction. >>
I say it makes a world of difference if someone buys it with the intent on getting it slabbed. Chances are they are going to be greatly disappointed or angry upon the returned coin.
We all know what this dealer is trying to do. If if its so acceptable, then I just found a new hobby...buying nice for the grade 55's 58's or even genuine high AU coins and cracking them then listing as MS or Unc and who's the wiser. It's people like this who give the coin business a dirty reputation. >>
No, we don't all know what the dealer is trying to do. You have an opinion about it. You may even be right. However, you may also be wrong. As for your new hobby if you wish to do so that is YOUR right also--just as long as it is truely your impression that they are MS.
Concerning people who buy raw coins with the intent of getting them slabbed...one needs to go ahead and spend the money necessary to buy them already in the slab one wants. Otherwise, tough noughies, you pays your money and you takes your chances. >>
So it was tough noughies prior to 1985 or so. Must have been great to be a wise dealer then.
You are wrong. It can and does happen.
5th Edition ANA Grading Standards page 9
"Several years ago Kevin Foley, editior of The Centinel,, offcial journal of the Central states Numismatis Society, sent in 10 different coins to four different professional grading services. In not a single instance could all four services agree on even a single coin, and in one instance, that of a 1919 Standing Liberty quarter, professional opinions ranged from AU-55 to MS-65."
EAC 6024
<< <i>TPG's may get it wrong at times and seem at times to be conservative in grade but they don't miss by 5 or 6 points at that level of preservation. >>
You are wrong. It can and does happen.
5th Edition ANA Grading Standards page 9
"Several years ago Kevin Foley, editior of The Centinel,, offcial journal of the Central states Numismatis Society, sent in 10 different coins to four different professional grading services. In not a single instance could all four services agree on even a single coin, and in one instance, that of a 1919 Standing Liberty quarter, professional opinions ranged from AU-55 to MS-65." >>
OK, so you can site one example. What about all the other several hundred thousand+ or so coins that get cracked, resubmitted and grade the same? Is this just an anomoly that got missed in your old citing from 'several' years ago? Don't you think they are getting better? I think so and companies like CAC are helping this. Look, I am not trying to defend TPG's but many more times than not they get it right. Just try and cross a 58 coin over or crack a 58 and send it. Guess what. It comes back 90%+ as a circ. grade. I have tried this. Have you?
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
Aside from the ethical judgements of what this seller is doing, my point is that this particular grade is often in the eye of the beholder. It could be that this coin, in hand, could easily be judged a 63 or higher and slip nicely into TPG holder as such.
Boom...we win.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, I probably hold a minority view. (Minority, but still, IMO, the right one.)
What difference does it make what it was once slabbed as? It isn't slabbed that now...in fact, if he were to call it a NGC AU-58 people would be even more up in arms. Prior opinions of a coin's grade are irrelevant once the plasic is gone. If the owner/seller thinks that it is an MS coin it is his right to say so. If you don't think that it is then it is your right not to buy it. It is NOT your right, though, to interfere with his auction. >>
I say it makes a world of difference if someone buys it with the intent on getting it slabbed. Chances are they are going to be greatly disappointed or angry upon the returned coin.
We all know what this dealer is trying to do. If if its so acceptable, then I just found a new hobby...buying nice for the grade 55's 58's or even genuine high AU coins and cracking them then listing as MS or Unc and who's the wiser. It's people like this who give the coin business a dirty reputation. >>
No, we don't all know what the dealer is trying to do. You have an opinion about it. You may even be right. However, you may also be wrong. As for your new hobby if you wish to do so that is YOUR right also--just as long as it is truely your impression that they are MS.
Concerning people who buy raw coins with the intent of getting them slabbed...one needs to go ahead and spend the money necessary to buy them already in the slab one wants. Otherwise, tough noughies, you pays your money and you takes your chances. >>
So it was tough noughies prior to 1985 or so. Must have been great to be a wise dealer then. >>
Don't know whether it was great to be a wise dealer then or not. I wasn't a dealer--I'm still not. It was a great time to be a wise collector, though. Coins were actually priced based on how the buyer and seller saw the coin instead of how some unknown grader decided it should be priced based on his 3 second perusal.
<< <i>This seller also has sold many cracked out ex NCS cleaned coins over the last few years which he's purchased at Heritage, then No Issue raw on EBay. >>
Well it's good to know that I am not the only one who noticed. But I am shocked at the forum community at their response to this practice. Obvoiusly he has little to no scruples to continually do this. I for one am staying far far away.
Some guys just know how to make more money with coins. Let's not begrudge them. It's capitalism mixed with "subjective grading" and it's okay. Who owns the coin can do what he wants with it.
TGIF
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>When you buy a coin as a dealer or collector your opinion of the Grade becomes the most important one. You have earned the right to call it whatever you want but the trick is to get other people to agree. >>
Amen... and if not (able to find agreement), maybe get them to look at things more objectively than subjectively.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Besides, how do you know this wouldn't grade MS63 if resubmitted to NGC, or submitted to PCGS?
AU58 coins are really mint state coins with cabinet friction.
Ray