EBAY justice

cdan12 · January 27, 2010 3:49PM

I bought a coin from lens-doc on ebay,1914D Lincoln cent,advertised as super gem ,genuine,best I have ever seen,etc,sent it to pcgs where it received a genuine for altered surfaces,tried to return it and seller said too much time had passed and to late to return,no help from ebay or paypal on this for the same reason,sent it to him anyway and he refused the shipment and it was returned to me,at any rate I sent him an email telling what I thought of him,ebay suspended my account for 72 hours ,while the coin doctor received no slap on his wrist or a suspension at all ,he is still a power seller and a top rated seller. I have filed a complaint with my cc and they will credit my account,but paypal would do nothing,should have known better to buy a raw coin there but with perfect feedback and great pictures swayed my decision, there I feel better now,anyone else have an experence like this, Dan

soty27 · January 27, 2010 3:53PM

It sounds like it was a pretty bad transaction. Hopefully your CC company can help you out a bit.

My only question would be why not talk to the seller prior to purchase and discuss you paln to submit the coin and what type of return policy would he work out with you if the coin came back cleaned or fake?

derryb · January 27, 2010 4:05PM

I would avoid an ebay coin seller with "doc" in their user name.

wondercoin · January 27, 2010 5:06PM

Dan: Possible things to do to avoid this in the future (but still have a chance to buy raw coins):

1. Agree up front whether it is OK to submit the coin to the grading service and still maintain the return privilege. Some sellers would not permit that; other would.

2. Assuming it is OK to submit... agree as part of the ebay purchase that your return period is extended to 30 days. Easy to do if you are making a best offer - just spell it out in the conditions of your offer. If hitting a BIN, get seller to agree up front in writing.

Wondercoin

notwilight · January 27, 2010 9:27PM

It is somewhat unusual for for a seller to guarantee a coin will slab unless they are very high on the coin. In that case, they probably sent it in themselves.

Mitch, I have often wondered how paypal would deal with conditions specified in the best offer. They tend to go by different rules than ebay, even though they are owned by ebay. --Jerry

BAJJERFAN · January 27, 2010 9:37PM

<< It is somewhat unusual for for a seller to guarantee a coin will slab unless they are very high on the coin. In that case, they probably sent it in themselves.

Mitch, I have often wondered how paypal would deal with conditions specified in the best offer. They tend to go by different rules than ebay, even though they are owned by ebay. --Jerry >>

There is no way to guarantee that even a slabbed coin will reslab upon crackout and resubmission. I doubt that any seller can guarantee that. I'd think the best case would be either it does or it doesn't and go from there.

drwstr123 · January 27, 2010 9:56PM

Caveat emptor.

Dropdaflag · January 27, 2010 10:11PM

This brings a Star Wars quote to mind.

“Mos Eisley spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” Obi-won Kenobi

TwoSides2aCoin · January 27, 2010 10:19PM

<< Caveat emptor. >>

Very true. eBay cannot stop misperceptions by people with bad vision or intent.
I'm sorry for your loss, but ... this place might have saved you the trouble and some money, had you posted photos here prior to purchase or submission.

I'm just sayin'.

segoja · January 27, 2010 11:24PM

Sorry for the loss, but how many times do we have to say it

DON'T BUY KEY DATE COINS RAW ON E-BAY.....NO MATTER WHAT

johnny9434 · January 27, 2010 11:29PM

sorry to hear about the 1914 D cent. hopefully, as posted earlier, the cc co. will help you out on this and you can be done with this

jmski52 · January 27, 2010 11:35PM

Sorry about your experience. I guess the take-away from this is that you can now sell the coin on ebay as "ebay and paypal-approved" as represented in the original sale. And you have the documentation to show that the coin is A-OK.

Excuse me for being cynical, but that's ebay today.

B-T-W, who is the scumbag seller?

Added, whoops - you already outed him.

magikbilly · January 27, 2010 11:35PM

Hi there,

see this - but I guess you have already. I find more trouble with those sellers with perfect feedback. Most all autograph forgers have perfect feedback for example. This shows at least 2 feedbacks for altered surfaces/cleaning.

Feedback @ Toolhaus.org

Best wishes,
Eric

dsessom · January 27, 2010 11:41PM

<< I bought a coin from lens-doc on ebay,1914D Lincoln cent,advertised as super gem ,genuine,best I have ever seen,etc,sent it to pcgs where it received a genuine for altered surfaces,tried to return it and seller said too much time had passed and to late to return,no help from ebay or paypal on this for the same reason,sent it to him anyway and he refused the shipment and it was returned to me,at any rate I sent him an email telling what I thought of him,ebay suspended my account for 72 hours ,while the coin doctor received no slap on his wrist or a suspension at all ,he is still a power seller and a top rated seller. I have filed a complaint with my cc and they will credit my account,but paypal would do nothing,should have known better to buy a raw coin there but with perfect feedback and great pictures swayed my decision, there I feel better now,anyone else have an experence like this, Dan >>

Dan,

I hate to be the Devil's advocate here, but when you buy a raw coin from Ebay, YOU are taking a gamble on whether it grades or not. There is no way a seller can guarantee that any coin will grade. If you make prior arrangements with the seller, advising him/her of your intentions to submit it, and they then agree to take it back if it doesn't grade, then that would be different. However, this not being the case, I would have to side with the seller/Ebay/Paypal on this one.

TomB · January 27, 2010 11:57PM

I have a similar take as dsessom regarding this transaction as portrayed by the OP. You purchased a raw coin and took a shot on the coin that would have improved its liquidity and value yet when that shot did not turn out as hoped you then resorted to forcing the coin back upon the seller and extracting a refund when none was due, in my opinion. Was the seller honest? It is easy to think that they were not honest, but that is not the point. You willfully purchased a raw coin and did not return the coin within your return period, but then wanted your money when it did not work out for you. I'm sorry your credit card has sided with you to this point.

2ndCharter · January 28, 2010 12:01AM

DON'T BUY KEY DATE COINS RAW ON E-BAY.....NO MATTER WHAT

While my real focus these days is paper money, I had always kept my Lincoln Cent Whitman Folders from when I was a kid dreaming of filling the holes of the "big ones" in the folder. Now that I've finally got the financial wherewithal, I went ahead and bought them on eBay - but only in slabs!. Then I cracked them out and put them in the folder (they're only VG-Fines but I know they're genuine and I also taped the grading tags inside the folder). I would never buy one of those key dates raw from Ebay.

doh · January 28, 2010 12:01AM

<< Dan,

I hate to be the Devil's advocate here, but when you buy a raw coin from Ebay, YOU are taking a gamble on whether it grades or not. There is no way a seller can guarantee that any coin will grade. If you make prior arrangements with the seller, advising him/her of your intentions to submit it, and they then agree to take it back if it doesn't grade, then that would be different. However, this not being the case, I would have to side with the seller/Ebay/Paypal on this one.
>>

I agree with that and what TomB said. You bought a raw coin, gambled that it would grade and asked for a refund after the return period expired as per the seller's listing. Now you're trying to force a refund through your CC company because you lost your gamble. Poor form in my opinion.

jakeblue · January 28, 2010 12:01AM

I typically ask questions on the seller's opinion if it is cleaned, altered, etc. I also explain that it will be submitted to PCGS for grading. Almost to a fault I receive an answer from the seller if it has problems, don't think it meets their standards. etc. I know there are sellers on ebay that are unethical, but it helps to be proactive when buying raw. If their answer is all is fine, then I weigh the risk of purchase/submission, and make a decision. With buyer protection, under certain circumstances, you might be able to file a significantly not as described per their answers. Sorry, but it is a lesson I learned as well. Good luck if you purchase again.

magikbilly · January 28, 2010 12:02AM

Hi there,

I wasn't going to say all that, but I have to agree with TomB as I sure was thinking it. I would think you use Toolhaus.org - why did you proceed? Feedback probs (not perfect and w/clear mention of altered surfaces a year ago and before..), raw...eBay..too good...key date...what flipped your switch?

Best,
Eric

habaraca · January 28, 2010 12:32AM

so why does he still have 100% feedback.

now your turn to leave some feedback

nycounsel · January 28, 2010 12:33AM

tried to return it and seller said too much time had passed and to late to return

how much time passed?

Ahrensdad · January 28, 2010 12:36AM

Hi Dan,
I too agree that you took a gamble on the coin. Sometimes the gamble pays off, sometimes not. Looked at another way, you wouldn't have contacted the seller after a closed transaction if you made a huge score to give him more money. His stated return period expired, you've removed coin from his holder... he has no incentive to take a gamble with/on you. That gamble of course being that he gets back the same coin, in the same condition...Sorry.

My guess is you're a decent guy, just trying to buy a nice coin. Next time buy it certified, and you won't have to go through all this.

Andrew

cdan12 · January 28, 2010 12:37AM

Did not know aout toolhouse,that would have swayed my decision,asked the seller ,all the right questions ,he gave all the right answers, Dan

lkeigwin · January 28, 2010 1:00AM

99% of the problems on ebay, between seller and buyer, could be avoided with a little communication, wouldn't you agree?

I would be surprised if your credit card charge-back is held up, I'm sorry to say, Dan. The seller may be guilty of hype but I can't see anything he did that should negate the sale.
Lance.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 28, 2010 1:02AM

TomB makes a very strong case, and it's tough to argue that.

crazyhounddog · January 28, 2010 1:04AM

Be more careful next time. Sorry to hear this...

airplanenut · January 28, 2010 1:11AM

TomB is right, so I don't need to type out a similar response. Chargebacks are for when terms are violated (ie, item not received, stated return policy not upheld). You are using one to enforce the policies that you WISH were in place, but never were. In other words, you're changing the contract now that things didn't end in your favor. If the coin had graded higher than expected, would you then go back and pay the seller more?

The seller didn't deserve a slap on the wrist, because he broke no rules. He may have sent junk, but you should have known better or worked something out before that became a problem. Morals and ethics say that you rescind the chargeback and pay the seller.

moonshine · January 28, 2010 1:13AM

you can always sue him.

gsaguy · January 28, 2010 1:13AM

<< I have a similar take as dsessom regarding this transaction as portrayed by the OP. You purchased a raw coin and took a shot on the coin that would have improved its liquidity and value yet when that shot did not turn out as hoped you then resorted to forcing the coin back upon the seller and extracting a refund when none was due, in my opinion. Was the seller honest? It is easy to think that they were not honest, but that is not the point. You willfully purchased a raw coin and did not return the coin within your return period, but then wanted your money when it did not work out for you. I'm sorry your credit card has sided with you to this point. >>

Wise words.

Russ · January 28, 2010 1:22AM

The only thing I would add is that just because PCGS says the coin has altered surfaces doesn't necessarily mean the coin has altered surfaces. Anybody who's submitted extensively over the years has stories of a coin getting bounced the first time, and graded the next.

Russ, NCNE

Coinsponge · January 28, 2010 1:29AM

Although I feel the pain of getting a "genuine" slab back from PCGS, I was thinking that if it was obvious from the sellers standpoint that the coin had altered surfaces before he sold it, why didn't the buyer know it as well when he received it and before it was sent to PCGS. I have bought and sold on eBay and I think that you have to judge the coin yourself and send it back within the stated return period or you don't have a case. Maybe take it to a local coin dealer if you don't trust your own judgement.

yellowkid · January 28, 2010 1:32AM

<< Sorry for the loss, but how many times do we have to say it

DON'T BUY KEY DATE COINS RAW ON E-BAY.....NO MATTER WHAT >>

Without a prior argreement with a seller, someone with a good track record, you're crazy to buy raw on eBay. How many times have we said that???

123cents · January 28, 2010 1:49AM

If you knew the surfaces of the Lincoln Cent were altered you should have sent the coin back to the seller in the specified period of time. If you didn't recognize the surfaces were altered, how did you expect the seller to know? Nothing leads me to believe from what he sells that the seller is a expert on coins.

Next time I would buy my coins graded by PCGS or NGC and never again buy key dates raw.

pf70collector · January 28, 2010 2:04AM

I might buy raw from Stacks but never from ebay. I have learned my lesson years back when I bought some raw coins off ebay. Never again.

Sandhawk · January 28, 2010 2:07AM

The last raw coin I bought off of ebay was a 1925 Stand Liberty Quarter advertised as MS62 - it now resides in a MS64FH PCGS holder...........

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while!

devious · January 28, 2010 2:07AM

i buy mostly raw on ebay, and i've lost money on 'gambles.' But I suck it up. I've won way more than I've lost and I think you, OP, need to take the high route and just suck up your loss. It's time to learn the coins better so upon receipt of the coin, you can inspect and make a proper determination on whether to hang on or return assuming future sellers you deal with have a return policy. Best of luck nonetheless.

coinguy1 · January 28, 2010 2:14AM

<< I might buy raw from Stacks but never from ebay. I have learned my lesson years back when I bought some raw coins off ebay. Never again. >>

If you don't know how to grade/assess coins on your own, buying from anyone can be dangerous.

erwindoc · January 28, 2010 2:14AM

<< I would avoid an ebay coin seller with "doc" in their user name. >>

I wouldnt say all sellers with "doc" are bad.

BAJJERFAN · January 28, 2010 3:43AM

<< 

<< I would avoid an ebay coin seller with "doc" in their user name. >>

I wouldnt say all sellers with "doc" are bad. >>

True. The doc could be for document and not doctor.

droopyd · January 28, 2010 3:48AM

<< I bought a coin from lens-doc on ebay >>

As soon as I read this I knew it would not go well...

droopyd · January 28, 2010 3:50AM

<< The only thing I would add is that just because PCGS says the coin has altered surfaces doesn't necessarily mean the coin has altered surfaces. Anybody who's submitted extensively over the years has stories of a coin getting bounced the first time, and graded the next. >>

However, the seller is known for his "messed with" coins.

rld14 · January 28, 2010 3:56AM

I also collect Philatelic items, and in the philatelic world, it's common to tell a dealer that you wish to purchase an item and send it out for a cert. In that case, the general rule is, should the selelr be amenable...

You mention this BEFORE YOU BUY THE ITEM
If the item comes back with a bad cert, the seller frequently reimburses the cost of the cert and takes the item back

Let's be realistic here, if you wanted a PCGS slabbed 14-D, then buy a PCGS graded one and pay the appropriate premium. It sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it too, and that's not how life works.

I bought 3 or 4 Raw VF barber Halves off of eBay for $50-60 each and guess what? They all slabbed and I hit a home run. I also bought an 1898-O Half raw for $300 that's a 35, shot 40. It's not grading at PCGS. I could have bought one graded VF35 but would have likely paid close to $500.

So you tell me...... you play with fire you're eventually going to get burned. IMO any key date high grade coin that's raw these days is often, but not always, raw for a reason.

BlindedByEgo · January 28, 2010 4:46AM

You received what could be considered "a lesson".

Thoughts:

First, if you want to play in this plaground, learn to grade coins well enough on your own that you don't have to send a coin to a TPG for their opinion before attempting a return after the stated return period.

Second, remember that third party grading is an opinion. Not seeing the coin myself, it is hard to know if it is even close - and some coins that come back "altered" or "cleaned" make it into plastic after a resubmission.

Third, and it's already been said, check with the seller AHEAD of time about submission to a TPG and return policy. A little communication upfront could save you the hassle.

Fourth, thinking you're going to steal a high value raw coin at eBay prices that would go up substantially in value once in plastic is a low percentage pursuit. Those who play take their lumps along with their successes, and don't publically complain - they play by the rules, and don't much try to circumvent the terms stated in the auctions.

BigRick · January 28, 2010 6:03AM

THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICTURES.

fastfreddie · January 28, 2010 6:04AM

Well, I kind of have a similar story. I watch coin auctions at various places. I was looking through my Teletrade history and noticed an 1861 SLQ NGC AU58 that I had seen recently. Turns out the coin is on Ebay represented by an unscrupulous seller as an MS63/4 coin with no mention of the crackout but instead words like fully original (which it is), choice uncirculated (which it is not per NGC). I sent the seller an email but he ignored my request to amend his listing. He just instead re-listed when it did not sell. It's out there right now for $509. This is criminal! It's one thing to buy a coin crack it and say it 'looks' MS but you must disclose what it was if you know. I have reported to Teletrade and Ebay but I have stuck out twice. Any suggestions? I though about emailing his past sales and telling them about his underhanded tricks.

frnklnlvr · January 28, 2010 9:56AM

<< The only thing I would add is that just because PCGS says the coin has altered surfaces doesn't necessarily mean the coin has altered surfaces. Anybody who's submitted extensively over the years has stories of a coin getting bounced the first time, and graded the next.

Russ, NCNE >>

Agreed! This happened to me recently.

magikbilly · January 28, 2010 10:16AM

<<Did not know aout toolhouse,that would have swayed my decision,asked the seller ,all the right questions ,he gave all the right answers, Dan>>

Well, uh, you are welcome. It is very handy. I guess most everyone else in here must use it. It is a single tool, used along with the right questions, policies and so on. I'k sure you will know next time

Best wishes,
Eric

EBAY justice

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