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How rare is the 1849/8 H10c and is it a true overdate? Calling MrHalfDime!!!!
Realone
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And what Valentine number would it be, thanks? And lastly what grade would be considered the highest graded with regards to NGC and PCGS?
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As you may know, there has been a long unanswered question regarding the identity of the underdigits for the 1849 repunched date half dimes. The dabate over the correct identity (i.e., 1849/6 or 1849/8) has waged for many years, and likely will continue for some time to come. Two numismatic heavy weights, Bill Fivaz and Thomas Delorey, profered their opinions in the Gobrecht Journal several years ago, taking opposite sides on the issue. I know and respect both of them, and would not care to reopen the debate here, but I will say that after thoroughly reading each argument, and after having studied many examples of each, I come down on the side of Mr. Delorey on this issue. At an ANA summer convention several years ago, I stopped by the table of Harlan Berk, for whom Thomas Delorey works, to introduce myself and offer my comments and agreement with his articles on the 1849 half dimes. Although Harlan Berk specializes in ancient and foreign coins, Mr. Delorey smiled, reached into his case, and said "Then you would appreciate this coin". He showed me absolutely the earliest die state that I had ever seen of the 1849 V2 "1849/6", with the entire underdigit visible. It was, indesputably, a 6 - without question. He smiled again and said "Kind of puts an end to the debate, doesn't it?". I was thoroughly impressed and asked if I might take some notes on the coin. Thomas stunned me by saying "I'll do better than that; you can buy it if you'd like". I treasure that coin, and often produce it to end debate on the 1849/6 vs. 1849/8 half dimes. Your first half dime, as you correctly stated, is an example of the V2 1849/6, although it is an intermediate die state, with most of the evidence of the underdigits worn away. In early die states, the underdigit (6) can be seen below and to the right of the 9, in the field. In the latest die states, a few small die cracks appear on the reverse. The second half dime you pictured appears to be an example of the V4, commonly called "1849/8", although Thomas Delorey and I believe that the underdigit is once again a 6. In the earliest die states of this obverse, the underdigit appears below and to the right of the lower loop of the 9, and appears almost like an eagle's claw, or talon. It is distinctly different from the V2 (1849/6), and all other obverses. There is also a V1 ("1849/8"), but on this obverse the date numerals are very high, with 184 touching the base of the rock. Your third coin appears, at least to me, to also be a V4, just like the second coin, but in a different die state, with all evidence of the underdigits worn away. I cannot be sure of this attribution, however. The Shield Line, Shield Point, and relationship of date numerals to dentils appear to agree on both coins, and with V4. Despite what Dr. Valentine states in his 1931 monograph regarding two varieties of the 1849-O, I believe that all 1849-O half dimes were struck from the same die pair, and all are his V1. His only description for his V2 states something like "bold" or "heavy" letters on the reverse, which really describes quality of strike, or perhaps die state, but not another die marriage. All 1849-Os are difficult, and any example in XF or better is downright scarce. In the pending LSCC half dime census, submitted for publication this very day, there were a total of 44 examples reported in all grades, with just 4 mint state examples, 4 AU examples, 10 XF, and the balance of 26 in VF or below.
TD
4 Obv. Compact, small numerals, well placed. The 9 shows it has been stamped over an 8, as both loops of the latter figure show slightly at the right.
He then described the obverse of his V5 as follows:
5 Obv. Almost identical with No. 4, but very few defects around the stars and only the lower loop of the 8 shows under the 9.
His frequent use of ambiguous terms such as ‘almost’, ‘nearly’, ‘very similar to’, ‘slight’, and others frustrate students of the series, as they lack specificity and make positive attribution difficult or impossible. Notice also in the above descriptions, when he states that V5 is almost identical to V4, he mentions the lack of defects around the stars in V5, yet never mentioned their presence in V4. In any event, later researchers have determined that the underdigits on both V4 and V5 are actually a 6, making them more correctly described as “1849/6”.
Dr. Valentine also identified another die marriage, his V2, which he described only as having a defect in the opening in the 9, but which we now know as the commonly referred to “1849/6”.
Yet another die marriage identified by Dr. Valentine, his V1, had no mention of any date numeral repunching, but we now know this as yet another of the misidentified “1849/8” varieties.
Al Blythe, in his 1992 reference “The Complete Guide to Liberty Seated Half Dimes”, describes the V1, V4, and V5 all as being “1849/8”, but he goes on to discuss the controversy surrounding the underdigits on all of these varieties. Blythe properly identifies the V2 as “1849/6”.
All of the above Valentine varieties (V1, V2, V4, and V5) are all examples of ‘overdates’, where the final digit was a different digit than the originally punched digit. When the two digits are the same digit, then the variety is properly described as simply a ‘repunched date’.
Yet another Valentine variety for the date, his V8, is now known to be a repunched date, properly described as ‘1849/1849’ since all four digits were repunched, presumably using a logotype, or gang punch.
It is no wonder, then, that people can get confused with the 1849 half dimes. Walter Breen once said that the rarest 1849 half dime would be one that had no repunching in the date, and he was nearly correct. Perhaps only the V3 and V7 are properly described as ‘normal date’.
So when you ask “How rare is the 1849/8 half dime, and is it a true overdate, and what Valentine number would it be?”, we must, in turn, ask you “Which 1849/8 are you referring to?”. Can you supply a picture so we can properly identify which one you are asking about? No matter whether you are referring to the V1, V4, or V5, (or the V2 for that matter), we can positively state that it is an overdate, but I would need to see the obverse to be able to identify which one you are referring to.
When I commented on Rhedden’s fabulous 1849 half dimes back in 2005 (the quote he posted above), I mentioned the spectacular 1849/6 V2 half dime that I was fortunate to purchase from Tom DeLorey. It is the earliest die state of that die marriage that I have ever seen, before or since, and unequivocally answers the question, once and for all, about the underdigit – it is a 6. Similar very early die states of the other die marriages are required to answer the nagging question for those varieties, as well. In my own reference collection I have numerous examples of all of the (reported) 1849 half dimes, including early die states, and I remain convinced that all of the 1849 overdates are 1849/6, as suggested by Tom DeLorey way back in 1985.
As an aid to help you to attribute your own half dimes, I would offer the following abbreviated notes:
• For the 1849/6 V2, the underdigit (6) appears to the right and slightly below the 9, with just the right side of both loops visible, and only on early die states. It is because only the right side of both loops of the underdigit are typically visible, with the lower loop much stronger than the upper loop, that many felt this to be an 8 rather than a 6.
• For the so-called ‘1849/8’ V4, a portion of the lower loop of the underdigit appears to the right of the 9, looking much like an eagle’s claw protruding from the 8.
• I have never seen any half dime which I can positively state is an example of Valentine’s V5, and he does not illustrate any photographic plates of any 1849 half dime reverse dies except the V2, making positive attribution an impossibility anyway. I believe his V4 and V5 to be simply different die states of the same die marriage, perhaps accounting for his use of the phrase “almost identical”.
Sorry I was not able to respond sooner, but duties and obligations with work kept me away from the computer. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could find a way to get paid to spend the day responding to threads like this? I’d do it in a minute.
TD
I wish I could, but unfortunately I am not equipped with the means to photograph and post images of coins, at least not yet. When I do acquire that capability, after a nominal learning curve, I suspect that I will be posting many images of interesting half dimes. It is frustrating at times like this not to be able to illustrate what I am discussing.
Bump from an old thread.
Bump> @MrHalfDime said:
Try another one or two or three like the one you sent me but with different lighting. Experiment with a circle of white paper around the coin to diffuse the lighting.
If that doesn't work, find somebody who can do it and I'll pay the photography costs.
TD
In 2014, I wrote the Authoritative Reference on the Liberty Seated Half Dimes
As part of this, I did a full analysis of the overdates, including overlays and very detailed micro photos
There is one 1848/6 HD overdate
1848/6 - OVD-001 - V-7a - The bottom of a 6 protrudes from the bottom left of the second 8, curves, and extends upward through the right side of the serif of the 4 then back to the top of the 8 right below the die gouge. The top loop of the 6 is seen inside the top of the 8. The bottom loop of the 6 is seen inside the lower loop of the 8.
Repunching of the 4 is seen to the left of the base, lower bar, center left side of the triangle, and serif. The right serif of the repunched 4 is larger than that used on the 4 for the 1848 date punch.
There are three 1949/6 overdates
1949/6 - OVD-001 - V-4, V-5, Breen 3051 - The top right of a 6 is seen protruding from the top right of the 9. The lower right loop of the 6 is seen protruding from the lower half left side of the 9. The left center of the 6 is seen connecting the lower ball and middle of the 9. The upper left side of the 6 is seen on the inside of the left side of the upper loop. The metal above the middle of the 9 is part of the center crossbar of the 6. In later die states, the top right of the 6 is not seen to the right of the 9 (paired with LDS reverse).
Repunched 4 seen below the base, to the right on the base, to the right of the serif, above the middle, and about the top. This is either a triple punched 4 or the remnants of a different sized 4. The 4 on the 1846 date punch has a larger serif.
1849/6 - OVD-002 - V-2, Breen 3052 - Early die state - The top left of the 6 is seen curving through the top loop of the 9. The center left of the 6 extends from the knob to the center of the 9. The top of the lower loop of the 6 extends over the middle of the 9. The lower loop of the 6 extends from the right middle of the 9 to the bottom center of the 9.
Late die states, no part of the 6 is seen on the right or below the 9.
Repunched Date: 1849/84
Repunched 8 west seen to right of the top of the 8.
Repunched 4 west seen to the right of the 4 and through the triangle. Repunching on these digits not seen on late die states.
1849/6 - OVD-003 - V-1 - Early die state - The top left of the 6 is seen curving through the top loop of the 9. The center left of the 6 extends from the knob to the center of the 9. The lower loop of the 6 extends from the right middle of the 9 to the bottom, slightly to the right of the center of the 9.
Late die states, only small remnants of the 6 is seen on the right or below the 9.
Repunched Date: 1849/84
Repunched 8 west seen to right of the top of the 8.
Repunched 4 west seen to the right of the 4 and through the triangle. Repunching on these digits not seen on late die states.
There is no 1849/8, the overlays absolutely prove this