Just take a look at Orr memorabilia sales and you will see how big he was. They don't pay a ridiculous amount of money for his stuff for nothing. His rookie in a psa 9 sold for almost $50,000 and a jersey sold for $143,000. Can't imagine what a PSA10 would bring. And that's just his regular Topps card, not his USA Test card. I think the problem here is that most don't study the history of the game and the players. They just watch players from their era and think that they are the greatest. Very few athletes actually dominate when they play, but he made everyone else look like an amateur. He once killed a 5 on 3 penalty almost by himself. No one does that. EVER(except Orr). This generation will probably think Crosby and Ovechkin are the top 2 greats of all-time when they retire.
Like Redheart 54 said, he won 8 STRAIGHT Norris titles while only playing 9 full years. The only title he didn't win was his rookie year. The player who won it that year said that he was greatful that he won it because Bobby Orr would win it every year after him.
He won 3 consecutive MVP's which are given to offensive players everytime and he won 2 scoring titles(as a defenseman). Imagine Dennis Rodman winning scoring titles while leading the league in rebounds every year.
Voted the greatest athlete in Boston history in the Boston Globe newspaper's poll of New Englanders, beating out baseball and basketball stars such as Ted Williams, Bill Russell, Carl Yastrzemski and Bob Cousy.
Voted the 2nd greatest hockey player of all time by an expert committee in 1997 by The Hockey News. Orr is behind only Wayne Gretzky and ahead of Gordie Howe as well as being named the top defenceman of all time. This was a big scandal as one of the voters had him voted out of the top ten. He would have been #1 if this one guy knew what he was voting on and was an actual expert.
Earlier posts say that yesterdays players would not make it in todays game. Many of Orr's records STILL stand today and have not been broken yet by defensemen that have had 20 year careers.
Held record for most assists in one NHL season from 1971 to 1981 (102; broken by Wayne Gretzky and also bettered by Mario Lemieux), this is STILL a record for a defenceman.
NHL Plus/Minus leader in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1974 and 1975, THE MOST IN HISTORY.
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1979, with the mandatory three-year waiting period waived, making him the youngest inductee at 31 years of age.
<< <i>Just take a look at Orr memorabilia sales and you will see how big he was. They don't pay a ridiculous amount of money for his stuff for nothing. His rookie in a psa 9 sold for almost $50,000 and a jersey sold for $143,000. Can't imagine what a PSA10 would bring. And that's just his regular Topps card, not his USA Test card. I think the problem here is that most don't study the history of the game and the players. They just watch players from their era and think that they are the greatest. Very few athletes actually dominate when they play, but he made everyone else look like an amateur. He once killed a 5 on 3 penalty almost by himself. No one does that. EVER(except Orr). This generation will probably think Crosby and Ovechkin are the top 2 greats of all-time when they retire.
>>
Another reason his memorabilia cost a lot is because Orr will not sign anything without getting a hefty paycheck first. Ask Orr on the street for one and he will tell you to F - off, literally. When an athlete doesn't sign for free their signature will retain value. An Orr auto is essential to any serious hockey auto collection, and demand will always be there, so people will keep paying. Good business practice IMO. As a collector I'm glad he doesn't sign for free, as a fan I wish he wasn't so mean.
But being mean doesn't take away what the guy did. You're right again about the history of the sport...people should do their homework.
Mullin, you can't possibly be serious. Just do an Ebay search and you will se that the market is flooded with Orr signatures. Orr works with charities and the proceeds go to his charities and not him. Maybe alot more athletes should take that approach when signing. I have talked to many people that have met him and he NEVER tells someone to F-OFF. He signs for everyone that asks. That's what hockey players are known for more than any other athlete. Ever since Upper Deck destroyed the market with their garbage, sports autos have become a joke. While your pre-war autos will sell high because of supply, athletes from the 50's through now have signed so many things that their auto is very common and very easy to obtain.
This isn't about career points or records. If that's the case then Cy Young is the greatest pitcher that ever lived. NOT Orr's (+/-) in 12 years (only 9 full years) was higher than Wayne's was in 20 years. Orr was more valuable to his team than Gretzky was. Oilers won another title after Wayne went to L.A. Bruins were nothing without Orr and his career (+/-) is a perfect example of how great he was. Remember, Wayne was protected by enforcers every time he was on the ice. Orr NEVER was. He was such a badass that no one ever messed with him. That's GREATNESS.
Amazing how often Gordie Howe is overlooked. Keep in mind that for a great portion of his career, there was only one assist per goal. Gretzky played his entire career when secondary assists were counted in the assist category.
I'm not saying Howe was the best, but he should not be so easily dismissed.
<< <i>This thread is the first time I've ever heard anybody say Bobby Orr was a great defensive player. I've read a lot of stuff about him and they all boiled down to the same things - "he was a great offensive player", "he was a great skater", "he changed the way the game was played". NONE ever mentioned him as a great defensive player. Not saying he wasn't - I don't know - just that I've never heard it mentioned before.
He won 8 Norris trophys as the NHL's best defenseman. >>
And Paul Coffey won 3.
Saying he won the Norris doesn't really address my point.
Wayne Gretzky was not a great skater. Bobby Orr was a great skater and an amazing athlete. I love Bobby Orr but this question of the best player ever. It is not even close. Sorry but it's not Orr, Howe Lemieux, Hull - there is only one answer. Wayne Gretzky made everyone around him a better player. He understood the game in a way that no one else has ever been able to compare. Wayne Gretzky without any doubt to this day is the greatest player to ever play in the NHL.
Regular season records (39) Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule Most goals, one season, including playoffs: 100 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games Most goals, 50 games from start of season: 61 in 1981–82 (October 7, 1981 to January 22, 1982, 80-game schedule) and 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 25, 1984), 80-game schedule Most goals, one period: 4 (Tied with 10 other players) February 18, 1981 Most assists: 1,963 Most assists, including playoffs: 2,223 Most assists, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule Most assists, one season, including playoffs: 174 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games Most assists, one game: 7 (tied with Billy "The Kid" Taylor) done three times -- February 15, 1980; December 11, 1985; February 14, 1986 Most assists, one road game: 7 (tied with Billy Taylor) December 11, 1985 Most points: 2,857 in 1,487 games (894 goals, 1,963 assists) Most points, including playoffs: 3,239 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games. (1016 goals, 2223 assists) Most points, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule (52 goals, 163 assists) Most points, one season, including playoffs: 255 in 1984–85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games Most goals by a centre, career: 894 Most goals by a centre, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule Most assists by a centre, career: 1,963 Most assists by a centre, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule Most points by a centre, career: 2,857 Most points by a centre, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule Most assists in one game by a player in his first season: 7 on February 15, 1980 Highest goals-per-game average, one season: 1.18 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 games Highest assists-per-game average, career (300 min.): 1.321 -- 1,963 assists in 1,487 games Highest assists-per-game average, one season: 2.04 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 games Highest points-per-game average, one season (among players with 50-or-more points): 2.77 in 1983–84, 205 points in 74 games Most 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 in 20 seasons Most consecutive 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 from 1979–80 to 1990–91 Most 50-or-more goal seasons: 9 (tied with Mike Bossy) Most 60-or-more goal seasons: 5 (tied with Mike Bossy) Most consecutive 60-or-more goals seasons: 4 from 1981–82 to 1984–85 Most 100-or-more point seasons: 15 Most consecutive 100-or-more point seasons: 13 from 1979–80 to 1991–92 Most three-or-more goal games, career: 50 -- 37 three-goal (hat trick) games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games Most three goal games, one season: 10 (done twice) in 1981–82 and 1983–84 Longest consecutive assist scoring streak: 23 games in 1990–91, 48 assists Longest consecutive point-scoring streak: 51 Games in 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984, 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points) Longest consecutive point-scoring streak from start of season: 51 in 1983–84; 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984) Playoff records (15) Most playoff goals, career: 122 Most playoff assists, career: 260 Most assists, one playoff year: 31 in 1988 (19 games) Most assists in one series (other than final): 14 (tied with Rick Middleton) in 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago) Most assists in final series: 10 in 1988 (four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston) Most assists, one playoff game: 6 (tied with Mikko Leinonen) on April 9, 1987 Most assists, one playoff period: 3 -- Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times Most points, career: 382 -- 122 goals and 260 assists Most points, one playoff year: 47 in 1985 (17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games) Most points in final series: 13 in 1988 three goals and 10 assists (four games plus suspended game vs. Boston, three goals) Most points, one playoff period: 4 (tied with nine other players) Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983 Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983 Most game winning goals in playoffs, career: 24 (tied with Brett Hull) Most three-or-more goals games (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games) All-Star records (6) Most All-Star game goals, career: 13 (in 18 games played) Most All-Star game goals, one game: 4 (tied with three players) 1983 Campbell Conference Most All-Star game goals, one period: 4 1983 Campbell Conference, third period Most All-Star game assists, career: 12 (tied with four players) Most All-Star game points, career: 25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games) Most All-Star game points, one period: 4 (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates) 1983 Campbell Conference, third period (four goals) AND ALSO Along with his numerous official records, Wayne Gretzky also has many "unofficial" records. These other records are not recognised by the NHL Official Guide and Record Book.
Youngest player to score 50 goals in a season (19 years, two months) Most points by an NHL player in his first year: 137. He was not considered a rookie in his first year, so the rookie record belongs to Teemu Selanne with 132 Most assists by an NHL player in his first year: 86. The rookie record is held jointly by Peter Stastny and Joe Juneau with 70 assists. Note that the record book gives Gretzky the record for most assists and points in a game as a first year player, but not the season totals Most 200-or-more point seasons: 4. Gretzky owns the official record for most 100 point seasons. He is the only player to reach 200 points in a season Most consecutive 200 point seasons: 3 Most 70-or-more goal seasons: 4. The NHL has a record for most 60 goal seasons, but not 70. Eight players have achieved 70 goals, and Brett Hull did so three times. Most consecutive 70 goal seasons: 4 Most 80-or-more goal seasons: 2 Most 90-or-more goal seasons: 1. Gretzky is the only player to achieve this Fastest 50 goals from start of season: 50 goals in 39 games. 50 goals in 50 games is labelled as the most difficult one to break of all of Gretzky's records. The NHL has an official record for the most goals in 50 games, but not the fastest 50 goals Fastest 100 points: 34 games in 1983–84 Most seasons averaging at least 1 point per game: 19 Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 1 point per game: 19 Most seasons averaging at least 2 points per game: 10 Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 2 points per game: 9 Most game winning goals in the playoffs: 24 (tied with Brett Hull) Most 100-or-more assist seasons: 11 Most consecutive 100-or-more assist seasons: 11 Most NHL and WHA regular season assists: 2,027 Most NHL and WHA regular season points: 2,967 Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff goals: 1,072 (one more than Gordie Howe) Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff assists: 2,297 Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff points: 3,369 Most MVP awards (Hart Trophy): 9 Most scoring championships (Art Ross Trophy): 10 Largest margin of victory in the scoring race: 79 (in 1983–84) Most seasons where he was his team's leading scorer: 19 Most official NHL records: 61 on retirement, 60 at present The following are milestone records:
Fastest 400 Goals (436 games) Fastest 500 Goals (575 games) Fastest 600 Goals (718 games, one less than Mario Lemieux) Fastest 700 Goals (886 games) Fastest 800 Goals (1116 games) Fastest 1000 Points (424 games) Only Player To Reach 2000 Career Points Only Player To Reach 3000 Career Points, Regular Season and Playoffs combined
The only thing I will say about Orr is that he played against guys that had off season part time jobs. Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones.
"The only thing I will say about Orr is that he played against guys that had off season part time jobs. Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones. "
Wow, and I thought Jim Brown could've played in any day I guess Jim Brown was great ONLY because he was playing against insurance salesmen.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
I never heard that Bobby Orr was a jerk. Did he really say FU when you asked him for an autograph.
That shocks me from everything I've heard about him being a gentleman and a down to earth person...not the God complex individuals that others consider themselves.
Is it that he's a jerk or that he won't sign autos in public. The two are not synonomous?
If there are other Orr being a jerk stories I'd be interested.
Now bavck to the debate....
jimrad -
Gretzky was great, but the question wasn't who holds the most records?
A few things -- Gretzky in all his greatness has 4 Stanley Cups and 2 Conn Smythes.
Orr has 2 Stanley Cups and 2 Conn Smythes.
Orr played with Esposito and Bucyk Gretzky played with Messier, Kurri, Coffey and Anderson.
Were these just everyday players who Gretzky made Hall of Famers?
Also, Gretzky won 4 Lady Byngs...very nice.
BTW, Orr played in the 1976 Canada Cup and on one leg played in 9 games, had 2 goals, 7 assists for 9 pts with 9 penalty minutes and ws the series MVP.
From all accounts, he was the best player on the ice at the end of his palying days.
Here are some numbers to consider:
REGULAR SEASON GRETZKY ORR GP 1487 657 G 894 270 A 1963 645 PTS 2857 915 PIM 577 953 +/- 518 597 PP 204 76 SH 73 16 GW 91 26
PLAYOFFS GRETZKY ORR GP 208 74 G 122 26 A 260 66 PTS 382 92 PIM 66 92
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
Well since this has turned out to beyond simple votes as the original thread asked. That is ok.....may experts here. I was old enough to see orr play. To say he was by far the most TALENTED man to ever play the game is probably without question. Greyzky could see the ice and be in the right spot at the right time. Yes his records are almost untouchable. He was great and made others great but for the most part of his whole carear was surrounded by hofers.
Orr is like what if Ted wlliams had not spent 5 prime years in the military. What if Mickey Mantle had taken care of himself. The records they would have. If Orr wasn't broken and in ungodly pain for MOST of his carear...then this discussion would be about the 2nd best hockey player.....gretzky, howe, or mario.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
<< <i>Funny how the Stanley cups seemed to follow Mark Messier after Gretzky left. >>
IMO this is a great point. I'm not saying the Gretzky isn't the best player ever, because--and let's face it--these kinds of discussions don't have any right answer, but I'm almost sure it's very easy to underestimate the impact that teammates have on a player's performance. Those '80's Oilers teams were positively loaded, and it also bears mentioning that the NHL of the 80's and early '90's bore very little resemblance to the NHL we saw once the neutral zone trap came to the fore. Yes, Gretzky's stats are beyond stupid- but Selanne potted 70+ as rookie during this same time frame, and you had guys who virtually nobody talks about anymore, like Gartner and Goulet, potting 50+ every year as well.
Lemieux was injured a lot, so that doesn't help his case, but the 69 goals in 70 games (and 90+ assists) that he potted in 95-96 to this day remains (at least to me) one of the most spectacular hockey seasons ever recorded, particularly given the era in which that season took place. He also came back from cancer twice, and remained a productive player. And he didn't need to drag McSorely around on a leash either, which at least counts for something. Again, I'm not saying this necessarily tilts the ice in Mario's favor, but I have never thought this argument was the slam dunk that many Gretzky fans have long assumed it to be.
<< <i>"The only thing I will say about Orr is that he played against guys that had off season part time jobs. Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones. "
Wow, and I thought Jim Brown could've played in any day I guess Jim Brown was great ONLY because he was playing against insurance salesmen. >>
I guess we will never know just like this discussion or debate. I can tell you one thing for sure Jim Brown was awesome but he did play against players that had part time jobs to make ends meet. Heck I betcha he had one?
<< <i> And he didn't need to drag McSorely around on a leash either, which at least counts for something. >>
Once again, I love the way you think.
I hate the whole culture of ritualized violence that Don Cherry and his ilk celebrate and I think unless and until the NHL addresses it, they'll always be a second tier sport in America.
Having said that...you have to be able to take care of yourself if you want to be a complete player. That's why Howe is the template. He could skate, shoot, check and pass and, if you messed with him, he could make you cry like a little girl who dropped her ice cream cone in the dirt. So could Lemieux, so could Messier, so could Espo and so could Orr.
There have been hundreds of players that have had their moments of being incredible. There have been some that have had more than moments. But this is just a ridiculous question - close this thread or move it to sports talk.
Wayne Gretzky has no one close and yes it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. No one close.
All these posts with peoples favorites is fine but there is only one great one.
<< <i>There have been hundreds of players that have had their moments of being incredible. There have been some that have had more than moments. But this is just a ridiculous question - close this thread or move it to sports talk.
Wayne Gretzky has no one close and yes it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. No one close.
All these posts with peoples favorites is fine but there is only one great one. >>
Bill McCreary showed everyone what happens when you hit Gretzky. After this hit in the great one, McCreary never stepped on the NHL ice again. I don't know if anyone other than Gretz ever recieved that kind of protection from the league.
Seems a little unfair to compare his points to guys like Orr and Lemiuex who got hammered everytime they stepped on the ice.
<< <i>Bill McCreary showed everyone what happens when you hit Gretzky. After this hit in the great one, McCreary never stepped on the NHL ice again. I don't know if anyone other than Gretz ever recieved that kind of protection from the league.
Seems a little unfair to compare his points to guys like Orr and Lemiuex who got hammered everytime they stepped on the ice. >>
I see what you're saying but I don't think the league suspended him for that hit.
Comments
Like Redheart 54 said, he won 8 STRAIGHT Norris titles while only playing 9 full years. The only title he didn't win was his rookie year. The player who won it that year said that he was greatful that he won it because Bobby Orr would win it every year after him.
He won 3 consecutive MVP's which are given to offensive players everytime and he won 2 scoring titles(as a defenseman). Imagine Dennis Rodman winning scoring titles while leading the league in rebounds every year.
Voted the greatest athlete in Boston history in the Boston Globe newspaper's poll of New Englanders, beating out baseball and basketball stars such as Ted Williams, Bill Russell, Carl Yastrzemski and Bob Cousy.
Voted the 2nd greatest hockey player of all time by an expert committee in 1997 by The Hockey News. Orr is behind only Wayne Gretzky and ahead of Gordie Howe as well as being named the top defenceman of all time. This was a big scandal as one of the voters had him voted out of the top ten. He would have been #1 if this one guy knew what he was voting on and was an actual expert.
Earlier posts say that yesterdays players would not make it in todays game. Many of Orr's records STILL stand today and have not been broken yet by defensemen that have had 20 year careers.
Held record for most assists in one NHL season from 1971 to 1981 (102; broken by Wayne Gretzky and also bettered by Mario Lemieux), this is STILL a record for a defenceman.
NHL Plus/Minus leader in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1974 and 1975, THE MOST IN HISTORY.
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1979, with the mandatory three-year waiting period waived, making him the youngest inductee at 31 years of age.
<< <i>Just take a look at Orr memorabilia sales and you will see how big he was. They don't pay a ridiculous amount of money for his stuff for nothing. His rookie in a psa 9 sold for almost $50,000 and a jersey sold for $143,000. Can't imagine what a PSA10 would bring. And that's just his regular Topps card, not his USA Test card. I think the problem here is that most don't study the history of the game and the players. They just watch players from their era and think that they are the greatest. Very few athletes actually dominate when they play, but he made everyone else look like an amateur. He once killed a 5 on 3 penalty almost by himself. No one does that. EVER(except Orr). This generation will probably think Crosby and Ovechkin are the top 2 greats of all-time when they retire.
>>
Another reason his memorabilia cost a lot is because Orr will not sign anything without getting a hefty paycheck first. Ask Orr on the street for one and he will tell you to F - off, literally. When an athlete doesn't sign for free their signature will retain value. An Orr auto is essential to any serious hockey auto collection, and demand will always be there, so people will keep paying. Good business practice IMO. As a collector I'm glad he doesn't sign for free, as a fan I wish he wasn't so mean.
But being mean doesn't take away what the guy did. You're right again about the history of the sport...people should do their homework.
Ever since Upper Deck destroyed the market with their garbage, sports autos have become a joke. While your pre-war autos will sell high because of supply, athletes from the 50's through now have signed so many things that their auto is very common and very easy to obtain.
You do realize the Gretzky has more assists than the number 2 all time point scorer (Messier) has points!
Orr's (+/-) in 12 years (only 9 full years) was higher than Wayne's was in 20 years.
Orr was more valuable to his team than Gretzky was. Oilers won another title after Wayne went to L.A. Bruins were nothing without Orr and his career (+/-) is a perfect example of how great he was.
Remember, Wayne was protected by enforcers every time he was on the ice. Orr NEVER was. He was such a badass that no one ever messed with him. That's GREATNESS.
I'm not saying Howe was the best, but he should not be so easily dismissed.
<< <i>This thread is the first time I've ever heard anybody say Bobby Orr was a great defensive player. I've read a lot of stuff about him and they all boiled down to the same things - "he was a great offensive player", "he was a great skater", "he changed the way the game was played". NONE ever mentioned him as a great defensive player. Not saying he wasn't - I don't know - just that I've never heard it mentioned before.
He won 8 Norris trophys as the NHL's best defenseman. >>
And Paul Coffey won 3.
Saying he won the Norris doesn't really address my point.
Tabe
Wayne Gretzky made everyone around him a better player. He understood the game in a way that no one else has ever been able to compare.
Wayne Gretzky without any doubt to this day is the greatest player to ever play in the NHL.
Regular season records (39)
Most goals: 894 in 1,487 games
Most goals, including playoffs: 1,016 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games
Most goals, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most goals, one season, including playoffs: 100 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 regular season games and 13 goals in 19 playoff games
Most goals, 50 games from start of season: 61 in 1981–82 (October 7, 1981 to January 22, 1982, 80-game schedule) and 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 25, 1984), 80-game schedule
Most goals, one period: 4 (Tied with 10 other players) February 18, 1981
Most assists: 1,963
Most assists, including playoffs: 2,223
Most assists, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists, one season, including playoffs: 174 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 regular season games and 11 assists in 10 playoff games
Most assists, one game: 7 (tied with Billy "The Kid" Taylor) done three times -- February 15, 1980; December 11, 1985; February 14, 1986
Most assists, one road game: 7 (tied with Billy Taylor) December 11, 1985
Most points: 2,857 in 1,487 games (894 goals, 1,963 assists)
Most points, including playoffs: 3,239 in 1,487 regular season and 208 playoff games. (1016 goals, 2223 assists)
Most points, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule (52 goals, 163 assists)
Most points, one season, including playoffs: 255 in 1984–85; 208 points in 80 regular season games and 47 points in 18 playoff games
Most goals by a centre, career: 894
Most goals by a centre, one season: 92 in 1981–82, 80-game schedule
Most assists by a centre, career: 1,963
Most assists by a centre, one season: 163 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most points by a centre, career: 2,857
Most points by a centre, one season: 215 in 1985–86, 80-game schedule
Most assists in one game by a player in his first season: 7 on February 15, 1980
Highest goals-per-game average, one season: 1.18 in 1983–84, 87 goals in 74 games
Highest assists-per-game average, career (300 min.): 1.321 -- 1,963 assists in 1,487 games
Highest assists-per-game average, one season: 2.04 in 1985–86, 163 assists in 80 games
Highest points-per-game average, one season (among players with 50-or-more points): 2.77 in 1983–84, 205 points in 74 games
Most 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 in 20 seasons
Most consecutive 40-or-more goal seasons: 12 from 1979–80 to 1990–91
Most 50-or-more goal seasons: 9 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most 60-or-more goal seasons: 5 (tied with Mike Bossy)
Most consecutive 60-or-more goals seasons: 4 from 1981–82 to 1984–85
Most 100-or-more point seasons: 15
Most consecutive 100-or-more point seasons: 13 from 1979–80 to 1991–92
Most three-or-more goal games, career: 50 -- 37 three-goal (hat trick) games; nine four-goal games; four five-goal games
Most three goal games, one season: 10 (done twice) in 1981–82 and 1983–84
Longest consecutive assist scoring streak: 23 games in 1990–91, 48 assists
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak: 51 Games in 1983–84 (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984, 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points)
Longest consecutive point-scoring streak from start of season: 51 in 1983–84; 61 goals, 92 assists for 153 points (October 5, 1983 to January 28, 1984)
Playoff records (15)
Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most playoff assists, career: 260
Most assists, one playoff year: 31 in 1988 (19 games)
Most assists in one series (other than final): 14 (tied with Rick Middleton) in 1985 Conference Finals (six games vs. Chicago)
Most assists in final series: 10 in 1988 (four games, plus suspended game vs. Boston)
Most assists, one playoff game: 6 (tied with Mikko Leinonen) on April 9, 1987
Most assists, one playoff period: 3 -- Three assists by one player in one period of a playoff game has been recorded on 70 occasions. Gretzky has had three assists in one period five times
Most points, career: 382 -- 122 goals and 260 assists
Most points, one playoff year: 47 in 1985 (17 goals and 30 assists in 18 games)
Most points in final series: 13 in 1988 three goals and 10 assists (four games plus suspended game vs. Boston, three goals)
Most points, one playoff period: 4 (tied with nine other players)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983
Most game winning goals in playoffs, career: 24 (tied with Brett Hull)
Most three-or-more goals games (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
All-Star records (6)
Most All-Star game goals, career: 13 (in 18 games played)
Most All-Star game goals, one game: 4 (tied with three players) 1983 Campbell Conference
Most All-Star game goals, one period: 4 1983 Campbell Conference, third period
Most All-Star game assists, career: 12 (tied with four players)
Most All-Star game points, career: 25 (13 goals, 12 assists in 18 games)
Most All-Star game points, one period: 4 (tied with Mike Gartner and Adam Oates) 1983 Campbell Conference, third period (four goals)
AND ALSO
Along with his numerous official records, Wayne Gretzky also has many "unofficial" records. These other records are not recognised by the NHL Official Guide and Record Book.
Youngest player to score 50 goals in a season (19 years, two months)
Most points by an NHL player in his first year: 137. He was not considered a rookie in his first year, so the rookie record belongs to Teemu Selanne with 132
Most assists by an NHL player in his first year: 86. The rookie record is held jointly by Peter Stastny and Joe Juneau with 70 assists. Note that the record book gives Gretzky the record for most assists and points in a game as a first year player, but not the season totals
Most 200-or-more point seasons: 4. Gretzky owns the official record for most 100 point seasons. He is the only player to reach 200 points in a season
Most consecutive 200 point seasons: 3
Most 70-or-more goal seasons: 4. The NHL has a record for most 60 goal seasons, but not 70. Eight players have achieved 70 goals, and Brett Hull did so three times.
Most consecutive 70 goal seasons: 4
Most 80-or-more goal seasons: 2
Most 90-or-more goal seasons: 1. Gretzky is the only player to achieve this
Fastest 50 goals from start of season: 50 goals in 39 games. 50 goals in 50 games is labelled as the most difficult one to break of all of Gretzky's records. The NHL has an official record for the most goals in 50 games, but not the fastest 50 goals
Fastest 100 points: 34 games in 1983–84
Most seasons averaging at least 1 point per game: 19
Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 1 point per game: 19
Most seasons averaging at least 2 points per game: 10
Most consecutive seasons averaging at least 2 points per game: 9
Most game winning goals in the playoffs: 24 (tied with Brett Hull)
Most 100-or-more assist seasons: 11
Most consecutive 100-or-more assist seasons: 11
Most NHL and WHA regular season assists: 2,027
Most NHL and WHA regular season points: 2,967
Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff goals: 1,072 (one more than Gordie Howe)
Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff assists: 2,297
Most NHL and WHA regular season and playoff points: 3,369
Most MVP awards (Hart Trophy): 9
Most scoring championships (Art Ross Trophy): 10
Largest margin of victory in the scoring race: 79 (in 1983–84)
Most seasons where he was his team's leading scorer: 19
Most official NHL records: 61 on retirement, 60 at present
The following are milestone records:
Fastest 400 Goals (436 games)
Fastest 500 Goals (575 games)
Fastest 600 Goals (718 games, one less than Mario Lemieux)
Fastest 700 Goals (886 games)
Fastest 800 Goals (1116 games)
Fastest 1000 Points (424 games)
Only Player To Reach 2000 Career Points
Only Player To Reach 3000 Career Points, Regular Season and Playoffs combined
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Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football
players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones.
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Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football
players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones. "
Wow, and I thought Jim Brown could've played in any day I guess Jim Brown was great ONLY because he was playing against insurance salesmen.
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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That shocks me from everything I've heard about him being a gentleman and a down to earth person...not the God complex individuals that others consider themselves.
Is it that he's a jerk or that he won't sign autos in public. The two are not synonomous?
If there are other Orr being a jerk stories I'd be interested.
Now bavck to the debate....
jimrad -
Gretzky was great, but the question wasn't who holds the most records?
A few things -- Gretzky in all his greatness has 4 Stanley Cups and 2 Conn Smythes.
Orr has 2 Stanley Cups and 2 Conn Smythes.
Orr played with Esposito and Bucyk
Gretzky played with Messier, Kurri, Coffey and Anderson.
Were these just everyday players who Gretzky made Hall of Famers?
Also, Gretzky won 4 Lady Byngs...very nice.
BTW, Orr played in the 1976 Canada Cup and on one leg played in 9 games, had 2 goals, 7 assists for 9 pts with 9 penalty minutes and ws the series MVP.
From all accounts, he was the best player on the ice at the end of his palying days.
Here are some numbers to consider:
REGULAR SEASON
GRETZKY ORR
GP 1487 657
G 894 270
A 1963 645
PTS 2857 915
PIM 577 953
+/- 518 597
PP 204 76
SH 73 16
GW 91 26
PLAYOFFS
GRETZKY ORR
GP 208 74
G 122 26
A 260 66
PTS 382 92
PIM 66 92
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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I was old enough to see orr play. To say he was by far the most TALENTED man to ever play the game is probably without question.
Greyzky could see the ice and be in the right spot at the right time. Yes his records are almost untouchable. He was great and made others great but for the most part of his whole carear was surrounded by hofers.
Orr is like what if Ted wlliams had not spent 5 prime years in the military. What if Mickey Mantle had taken care of himself. The records they would have.
If Orr wasn't broken and in ungodly pain for MOST of his carear...then this discussion would be about the 2nd best hockey player.....gretzky, howe, or mario.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Funny how the Stanley cups seemed to follow Mark Messier after Gretzky left.
<< <i>Funny how the Stanley cups seemed to follow Mark Messier after Gretzky left. >>
An interesting point.
<< <i>Funny how the Stanley cups seemed to follow Mark Messier after Gretzky left. >>
IMO this is a great point. I'm not saying the Gretzky isn't the best player ever, because--and let's face it--these kinds of discussions don't have any right answer, but I'm almost sure it's very easy to underestimate the impact that teammates have on a player's performance. Those '80's Oilers teams were positively loaded, and it also bears mentioning that the NHL of the 80's and early '90's bore very little resemblance to the NHL we saw once the neutral zone trap came to the fore. Yes, Gretzky's stats are beyond stupid- but Selanne potted 70+ as rookie during this same time frame, and you had guys who virtually nobody talks about anymore, like Gartner and Goulet, potting 50+ every year as well.
Lemieux was injured a lot, so that doesn't help his case, but the 69 goals in 70 games (and 90+ assists) that he potted in 95-96 to this day remains (at least to me) one of the most spectacular hockey seasons ever recorded, particularly given the era in which that season took place. He also came back from cancer twice, and remained a productive player. And he didn't need to drag McSorely around on a leash either, which at least counts for something. Again, I'm not saying this necessarily tilts the ice in Mario's favor, but I have never thought this argument was the slam dunk that many Gretzky fans have long assumed it to be.
<< <i>"The only thing I will say about Orr is that he played against guys that had off season part time jobs.
Gretzky and Lemieux played against full time year round athletes. The same can be said for Football
players. Fran Tarkenton was being chased around by insurance salesman and used car dealers not Tahati Jones. "
Wow, and I thought Jim Brown could've played in any day I guess Jim Brown was great ONLY because he was playing against insurance salesmen. >>
I guess we will never know just like this discussion or debate. I can tell you one thing for sure Jim Brown was awesome but he
did play against players that had part time jobs to make ends meet. Heck I betcha he had one?
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Steve
<< <i>Cammi Granato!
Steve >>
<< <i> And he didn't need to drag McSorely around on a leash either, which at least counts for something. >>
Once again, I love the way you think.
I hate the whole culture of ritualized violence that Don Cherry and his ilk celebrate and I think unless and until the NHL addresses it, they'll always be a second tier sport in America.
Having said that...you have to be able to take care of yourself if you want to be a complete player. That's why Howe is the template. He could skate, shoot, check and pass and, if you messed with him, he could make you cry like a little girl who dropped her ice cream cone in the dirt. So could Lemieux, so could Messier, so could Espo and so could Orr.
It not just stats that justify greatness
But this is just a ridiculous question - close this thread or move it to sports talk.
Wayne Gretzky has no one close and yes it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. No one close.
All these posts with peoples favorites is fine but there is only one great one.
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<< <i>There have been hundreds of players that have had their moments of being incredible. There have been some that have had more than moments.
But this is just a ridiculous question - close this thread or move it to sports talk.
Wayne Gretzky has no one close and yes it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. No one close.
All these posts with peoples favorites is fine but there is only one great one. >>
true-dat
Seems a little unfair to compare his points to guys like Orr and Lemiuex who got hammered everytime they stepped on the ice.
<< <i> it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. >>
Then I would argue for Henri Richard's 11 Stanley Cup rings.
<< <i>Bill McCreary showed everyone what happens when you hit Gretzky. After this hit in the great one, McCreary never stepped on the NHL ice again. I don't know if anyone other than Gretz ever recieved that kind of protection from the league.
Seems a little unfair to compare his points to guys like Orr and Lemiuex who got hammered everytime they stepped on the ice. >>
I see what you're saying but I don't think the league suspended him for that hit.
<< <i>
<< <i> it is accomplishments that makes the best ever. >>
Then I would argue for Henri Richard's 11 Stanley Cup rings.
unimaginable.
<< <i>
I see what you're saying but I don't think the league suspended him for that hit. >>
They didn't suspend him, they kicked his butt out for good. He never even played another shift after that hit, ever.
<< <i>close this thread or move it to sports talk. >>
lol lol.
<< <i>
<< <i>Cammi Granato!
Steve >>
Was she from Michigan??