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PCGS Grading Guarantee Update
Gobrechts99Grapevine
Posts: 143
No color guarantee on color on a coin SOLD after Jan first. It's not due to to storage. This is thanks to the coin doctors!
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
NOT.People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
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Comments
Must a request be submitted with an invoice showing the date purchased?
most of their handwork on small coppers. The rewards gleaned with their dealer confederates will be
far smaller. I expect most of their efforts will be confined to toning silver and puttying gold.
For copper collectors, this will be a good thing in the long run.
Just remember to store your red and RB copper in Intercept Shield box systems. Unless the coin was doctored,
the protective "skin" on the surface as well as the two part box system should keep your coins pristine. All of my personal collection
is stored in many large safe deposit boxes and Intercept Shield boxes for the past seven years. I have seen no changes in anything but a few silver coins which apparently hadn't had all the Jewelustre rinsed off before slabbing. These few pieces have developed some
peripheral russet toning but it's not unsightly. One must remember to renew the Intercept boxes about every 12-15 years. Not expensive considering but a nuisance neverthless.
Ira
What's next, do away with the guarantee for doctored coins?
Considering that payouts this past year were about 1% of revenues (on a business with a gross profit of roughly 50%), what really led to this decision?
Are my RD and RB PCGS coins now worth less because PCGS went back on its word?
For example, the 1969-S DDO cent that was a MS65RD that turned in the holder, was covered under the old guarantee and is now an MS64RB. Shouldn't the drop from 65 to 64 still be covered, regardless of the color??? Wonder how PCGS will deal with that issue in the future when high grade RD coins they slab later grow spots. Of course, I really hope I never have to deal with the issue personally
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>What do you serious copper collectors think: will this new policy lead to a reduction in premiums for red coins? >>
After 1/1/10 maybe... but until then dealers may keep charging the big bucks knowing that if us collectors want a guarantee we only a few weeks to buy up those coins!!! Hurry up, everyone buy buy buy, and you better get a receipt
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I have no problem with the new PCGS policy regarding copper coins. I also believe it will be good for the hobby and collectors in the long run.
I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders.
Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee.
Stewart Blay
<< <i>I'm not completely surprised by this decision; NGC has already forsworn guarantees on redness of coppers..... >>
Not completely, they haven't. From their website:
"The NGC Coin Grading Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper-nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.
To the extent that the NGC Coin Grading Guarantee applies to copper, bronze or copper-nickel coins, such Guarantee expires on the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC."
<< <i>I have no problem with the new PCGS policy regarding copper coins. I also believe it will be good for the hobby and collectors in the long run.
I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders.
Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee.
Stewart Blay >>
Stewart, please elaborate and let us know why you believe these changes will be "good for the hobby and collectors"? Thanks.
<< <i>I have no problem with the new PCGS policy regarding copper coins. I also believe it will be good for the hobby and collectors in the long run.
I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders.
Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee.
Stewart Blay >>
I get that Stewart. But the likely scenario is that your coins go to auction someday. Since the auction sale would occur AFTER Jan 1, 2010 the new buyers will have no guarantee with respect to color unless PCGS changes this policy before then. It may be a moot point at that time. They may no longer be in business due to the suicidal policy changes made of late.
Nevertheless, without the color guarantee it is assured that the lofty prices garnered by high quality copper will no longer be the case. If you have departed this life by that time, you won't care. However, if you are among the living, I believe it will very much affect you.
I remind you here to bring the the doubled die cents to FUN next month to discuss with David Hall. I will also call to remind you.
Ira
Also, if PCGS wanted to change their policy, they should have limited themselves to coins graded after January 1, and they should not have changed the terms of the guarantee for the coins that they already graded. Instead, they rescinded their guarantee on any red coin when it is sold. With that action, PCGS broke their word on their existing graded coins. In my opinion, a TPG is successful to the extent that it is trusted by the community, and this change damages that trust.
Altogether, this change by PCGS is very bad for our hobby.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>.... A true knowledgeable collector doesn't have to fear what may be perceived about a PCGS guarantee. That being said, if you are just an investor who hopes to make a quick killing by buying and then flipping PCGS RED Copper coins, you may find that the new PCGS changes in their rules has a negative affect in your plans. JMHO. Steve
Steve, there are (other) knowledgeable collectors who don't care about trying "to make a quick killing by buying and then flipping PCGS RED Copper coins" but who still have legitimate concerns that their copper coins wont be guaranteed the same way they have been. Just because Stewart's coins haven't turned, doesn't mean other (good) coins haven't and wont. And those concerns don't make such collectors less knowledgeable or suddenly/magically transform them into investors.
Yes, please elaborate.
Actually, I would be more interested in what you think this will do for the premiums of Red copper & what these new policies will do to PCGS as far as Red copper submissions go.
I wonder, in a weak market, shouldn't the TPG be making policies that make collectors feel more secure in their purchases, not less?
Shouldn't they be giving 'added value', not taking it away?
Are we coin collectors or coin investors?
I keep hearing people say they would welcome a market "correction", but I question that when I hear comments like this from dealers.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Mark - The new policy will be good for the hobby and collectors because collectors will HAVE to buy the coin and not the holder. Anyone who still owns a coin that is questionable will still have the opportunity to resubmit their coins under guaranteed grade even after January 1,2010. It will hopefully weed out problem coins .
I feel that even after the present copper guarantee expires my coins will bring what they are worth when I decide to sell them. True collectors will prevail .
Furthermore I believe there will be moon prices for certain coins. The Registry fever will continue.
Stewart
As a definite coin collector, I still don't like it when the market goes down.
I'm aware that at some point I will be selling & I'd like to get back as much as I can.
I think this was brought up before, but if a coin turns in its holder, would that effect it's grade?
How would PCGS handle a coin turned in because it turned 'brown'?
If it's because it was played with by a 'doctor' would, could the coin stay in it's holder?
Would PCGS crack it out & return the coin raw?
Would it leave it in the same holder even though it was no longer RED & "altered"?
Would it regrade/reholder and send the coin back without compensation without the owners consent?
Just wondering.
<< <i>Mark - The new policy will be good for the hobby and collectors because collectors will HAVE to buy the coin and not the holder. Anyone who still owns a coin that is questionable will still have the opportunity to resubmit their coins under guaranteed grade even after January 1,2010. It will hopefully weed out problem coins .
I feel that even after the present copper guarantee expires my coins will bring what they are worth when I decide to sell them. True collectors will prevail .
Furthermore I believe there will be moon prices for certain coins. The Registry fever will continue.
Stewart >>
I hope the Registry fever for red cents would continue unabated, but I believe there will be a significant reduction in demand.
Imagine someone buying an attractive and scarce 1925-S cent in a PCGS MS 65 Rd holder this coming March. Looks great and apparently
the PCGS graders thought so as well and it had been graded just weeks before. This collector places the 1925-S in his safe deposit box or his home safe. In a year's time the beutiful even red color has turned blotchy with irregular areas of magenta and pink dominating the surfaces. Looks awful and unnatural. What the collector DIDN'T know is that the coin, formerly a MS 64 RB had been to the doctor just a week before grading. That hapless collector is out of luck! He thought he got a bargain at $24,000 but now the coin is ruined forever.
You wrote that coins will bring "what they're worth," but what they are worth as a result of this short sighted policy change may be far less than you think. The bad will drive out the good. Look what excellent Chinese counterfeits has done to the raw coin market for early dollars!
Ira
<< <i>Mark - The new policy will be good for the hobby and collectors because collectors will HAVE to buy the coin and not the holder. Anyone who still owns a coin that is questionable will still have the opportunity to resubmit their coins under guaranteed grade even after January 1,2010. It will hopefully weed out problem coins .
I feel that even after the present copper guarantee expires my coins will bring what they are worth when I decide to sell them. True collectors will prevail .
Furthermore I believe there will be moon prices for certain coins. The Registry fever will continue.
Stewart >>
Thanks Stewart. I agree with your comments to a large extent extent. However, "true collectors" can still end up being penalized if (even) non-doctored coins they are holding now, later turn in their holders. Or if they buy (even) non-doctored coins, which later turn in their holders. And in the case of doctored coins, the work isn't always detectable, so the grading companies and many "true collectors" will miss the doctoring. So yes, in many cases, highly knowledgeable "true collectors" will fare better than plastic/insert buyers, but even the former will suffer significant consequences in many cases.
For the record, I am sympathetic to both holders and future buyers of copper coins and the grading companies in this situation. In the case of copper that turns, there is no good remedy which doesn't punish someone unfairly.
Mark - If PCGS does not do the right thing they will be out of business. I believe in their twenty + years of grading coins they have been a very successful company (they would have been more so if they just stuck to grading coins).
None of my coins have turned in my various bank boxes
Further,collectors who in the future buy a coin that turns in a holder will know from whom they buy the coin and PCGS will know who sent the coin in for grading. Hopefully it will keep everyone more honest and I believe original full red copper coins will escalate in price because its true scarcity will be more appreciated.
Ira - Many copper coins in the Jack Lee were turned or were turning in the holder. Take for example the 1926 s in PCGS ms 65 red. You sold him the coin and it was far from a full red coin. If you take the insert away you have a $20,000 coin at best. Ira, the coin was NEVER a $100,000 + coin. These coins will have a correction and I believe it is deceptive for coins like this to keep fooling new collectors and it should end.
ps - I got the 1941 DDO and will do my thing in Florida
Stewart
If it's because it was played with by a 'doctor' would, could the coin stay in it's holder?
Would PCGS crack it out & return the coin raw?
Would it leave it in the same holder even though it was no longer RED & "altered"?
Would it regrade/reholder and send the coin back without compensation without the owners consent?>>
Anybody know??
<< <i><<How would PCGS handle a coin turned in because it turned 'brown'?
If it's because it was played with by a 'doctor' would, could the coin stay in it's holder?
Would PCGS crack it out & return the coin raw?
Would it leave it in the same holder even though it was no longer RED & "altered"?
Would it regrade/reholder and send the coin back without compensation without the owners consent?>>
Anybody know?? >>
Not sure? Also, how will they handle a coin like the '69-S DDO that went from 65RD to 64RB?? Will they still guarantee the GRADE of 65, even though it's clear they will no longer guarantee the COLOR?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
Ira - Many copper coins in the Jack Lee were turned or were turning in the holder. Take for example the 1926 s in PCGS ms 65 red. You sold him the coin and it was far from a full red coin. If you take the insert away you have a $20,000 coin at best. Ira, the coin was NEVER a $100,000 + coin. These coins will have a correction and I believe it is deceptive for coins like this to keep fooling new collectors and it should end.
ps - I got the 1941 DDO and will do my thing in Florida
Stewart >>
Thanks for getting out the 1941 DDO for review at FUN. I don't happen to have one or I would have brought it along as well. Hopefully, it can be reinstated in the major varieties set.
Just to clear up my handling the sale of the sole MS-65 Rd 1926-S. I merely brokered the sale at no charge and asan accomodation to Jack. Jack told me he wanted it but Bob Hughes had it and they couldn't put the deal together. My 30 years as a former real estate broker helped here, because I arranged a meeting of the minds between the two dealers and the sale was made. I delivered the coin to Jack Lee and I had a chance to scrutinize it for a few minutes. FWIW, I see it as a full red but not particulary a NICE MS-65 Rd. I've sold many MS-64 Rds in the past it was clearly better than ANY of them.
I think if it were regraded today it would still get a MS-65 RD designation from PCGS.
Ira
Mr. Blay doesn't speak on these forums as often as I wish he would, but when he talks, I listen. And I agree with his opinions on this subject. My Memorial collection surely pales in comparison to his or Mr. Glasser's, but it is still that, a collection and not just an investment. I don't collect plastic, but the coin contained within. As he has stated, I have yet to have a coin turn in my bank vault, and when the day comes down the line that my set is sold, I believe the coins will do just fine. Most of the coins in the set I have already owned for several years, and any buyer should be able to have faith in them not turning on them.
This change in guarantee will probably adversely affect values in the short term, but as Mr. Blay has stated, I think true collectors will do just fine and will benefit over the long run.
Dan Close
It isn’t just color that is no longer being guaranteed. How can you say you won’t guarantee the color and yet still guarantee the grade? If an MS66RD has been doctored so that eventually it looks just plain awful, then what is it now? It’s genuine, that’s all they can say. It isn’t heat and humidity, the problem is that EVEN PCGS can’t always tell if a coin has been doctored. The real culprit behind this unfortunate change in the PCGS guarantee is the doctoring of coins.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>No color guarantee on a coin SOLD after January first. It's not due to storage. This is thanks to the coin doctors!
It isn’t just color that is no longer being guaranteed. How can you say you won’t guarantee the color and yet still guarantee the grade? If an MS66RD has been doctored so that eventually it looks just plain awful, then what is it now? It’s genuine, that’s all they can say. It isn’t heat and humidity, the problem is that EVEN PCGS can’t always tell if a coin has been doctored. The real culprit behind this unfortunate change in the PCGS guarantee is the doctoring of coins. >>
You are right on, Rich! I'm surprised no one else saw the implications of the "no color gurantee." Maybe they did and didn't post here.
Is Don Willis or HRH reading this? Would they care to respond to this post? There is a vortex of mystery and obfuscation surrounding this change. In a vortex, things tend to go down the drain.
Ira
<< <i>
<< <i>No color guarantee on a coin SOLD after January first. It's not due to storage. This is thanks to the coin doctors!
It isn’t just color that is no longer being guaranteed. How can you say you won’t guarantee the color and yet still guarantee the grade? If an MS66RD has been doctored so that eventually it looks just plain awful, then what is it now? It’s genuine, that’s all they can say. It isn’t heat and humidity, the problem is that EVEN PCGS can’t always tell if a coin has been doctored. The real culprit behind this unfortunate change in the PCGS guarantee is the doctoring of coins. >>
You are right on, Rich! I'm surprised no one else saw the implications of the "no color gurantee." Maybe they did and didn't post here.
Is Don Willis or HRH reading this? Would they care to respond to this post? There is a vortex of mystery and obfuscation surrounding this change. In a vortex, things tend to go down the drain.
Ira >>
It was addressed on the last page of this thread, but no response from HRH.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
<<I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade>>
<<I don't claim to know the answer. But, let's think about it logically for a moment....
Copper that is graded and/or sold after January 1, is supposedly not being guaranteed, partly due to its reactivity. And part of that reactivity manifests itself in the form of spots and/or changes in color, each of which clearly can negatively impact the numerical grade. So, if "copper" isn't guaranteed, I would be shocked if, at the same time, its grade is.>>
So what impact will this have on the registry??
At first you might think none.
But ask yourself, how will PCGS know if a coin was sold after 1/1/2010?
OK, for the 'Blayish' sales, OK....big bucks = big news, everyone knows.
And for coins graded after 1/1/2010.....duh.
But for those thousands of coins that are bought/traded amongst collectors?
One way would be to use the registry to see if had changed sets.
By not listing it in the registry, how else would PCGS know (besides asking) a coin traded hands after 1/1/2010?
<< <i>Mark - If PCGS does not do the right thing they will be out of business. I believe in their twenty + years of grading coins they have been a very successful company (they would have been more so if they just stuck to grading coins).
None of my coins have turned in my various bank boxes
Further,collectors who in the future buy a coin that turns in a holder will know from whom they buy the coin and PCGS will know who sent the coin in for grading. Hopefully it will keep everyone more honest and I believe original full red copper coins will escalate in price because its true scarcity will be more appreciated.
Ira - Many copper coins in the Jack Lee were turned or were turning in the holder. Take for example the 1926 s in PCGS ms 65 red. You sold him the coin and it was far from a full red coin. If you take the insert away you have a $20,000 coin at best. Ira, the coin was NEVER a $100,000 + coin. These coins will have a correction and I believe it is deceptive for coins like this to keep fooling new collectors and it should end.
Stewart >>
What if PCGS announces a NEW label for their slabs to start January 1st. Wouldn't that help determine if existing copper coins (in the old blue label) continue to be covered for color and grade in the future?
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
One thing I really hope PCGS does not do is redesign the shape of the holder. I really like the clear look--NGC's white tends to drown out smaller coins. And, with the exception of early rattlers, I appreciate the uniformity of holder appearance. I'm a bit obsessive-compulsive that way; I like for all my coins in a set to be in similar holders.
My E-Bay Stuff
<< <i>I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders. >>
AND
<< <i>None of my coins have turned in my various bank boxes >>
I can't think of ANYONE who is likely to have owned more RED copper coins in PCGS holders since 1988 than Stewart Blay (and I don't recall him ever saying anything about using Intercept Shield box systems, Ira, either). Stewart says that none of his coins have turned in his various bank boxes, maybe going back 30 years. Considering his wide-ranging interests in various series going back to the 18th century, his complete collections AND his duplicates, he has held a large number of red copper coins in PCGS holders for a very long time and yet NONE of them have turned color! My point about the disappearing color guarantee? The real culprit behind this unfortunate change in the PCGS guarantee is the doctoring of coins.
Am I beating a dead horse on this issue? Does ANYONE out there disagree with the statement? "It's not due to to storage. This is thanks to the coin doctors!"
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>Does ANYONE out there disagree with the statement? "It's not due to to storage. This is thanks to the coin doctors!" >>
Yes, PCGS does, in its announcement.
<<Of course we will continue to guarantee the grade. If something happens to any coin that changes its appearance enough to warrant a downgrade or a buy back we will do it, just as we always have.
A coin can change from a RD to a RB and not affect the grade at all. On the other hand if something happens to the surface like a spot or stain or gross discoloration, that can affect the grade. This would be covered under our grade guarantee.
The color guarantee change is simply a recognition that PCGS does not have any control over how coins are kept once they leave our building. We have seen unfriendly environments and inadequate care produce some unfortunate results. For over a hundred years most collectors have taken care to preserve their copper coins, even if it was in an old coin cabinet with velvet drawers. The fact that there are so many old red copper pieces is a testiment to the measures that previous generations of collectors took to preserve these coins.
But not everyone is a careful caretaker. For example, we can't guarantee that a beautiful red 1909 Lincoln will stay red if someone leaves it on a window sill for a month. It's a shame considering the care and protection that coin was given by previous owners, but it happens.
Our holders provide a lot of safety but they are not completely impervious to mishandling and improper storage. However, with proper care and storage, today's collectors of copper coins should be at least as successfull as previous generations in preserving their coins.
Lastly, I think that properly cared for copper coins will continue to be sought out. There will always be a strong market for beautiful, well preserved copper coins in RD, RB and BN. And, PCGS will always stand behind our grading guarantee.>>
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Instead of an announcement, you are going to get a lecture.
But, it's just the way it is.....
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>I'm not completely surprised by this decision; NGC has already forsworn guarantees on redness of coppers. Thankfully, color differences can be discerned by an untrained eye. This decision does serve as a reminder that ultimately, it's about the coin, not the holder, though it is a little unsettling that PCGS did this, leaving open the fear that some fifteen or twenty years later, they might declare that, perhaps because of the crack-out activities going on today, they're no longer guaranteeing anything. I'd like to think that won't happen, but a lot can happen in a decade or two. >>
NGC never reneged on its guarantee, and for your information, NGC copper coins (after 04-01-01) are guaranteed for 10 years.
<< <i>Maybe instead of doing away with the color guarantee completely, They could rethink it and put a cap on it and limit the guarantee to $1000 $3000? or $5000? Anyone else think this would work for PCGS and the members? >>
That's not fair; I have copper coins that are worth more. If you are only going to guarantee the cheap(er) stuff then why bother?
<< <i>iras4 where do you get those Intercept Shield box systems? I enjoy seeing your lovely Lincolns on eBay and have decided to get on this Forum more often ... thanks George >>
Many large coin dealers in larger cities carry these. List price is $13.95 for a ten coin box system, but you might do better depending on dealer and how many boxes you buy. Otherwise, you could to a Google search of Intercept Shield, find the home page, and find the list of dealers in your state. I sell them too, but I think you'll do better if you can find them locally and not have the shipping expenses.
Ira