Here is a heads up on an ebay scam ....."unopened proof sets" New Update 1/4/10"

SUMORADA · December 30, 2009 10:23AM

I purchased (2) items from a ebay seller that I will list at the end of this, (1) 1955 "unopened" proof set & (1) 1952 "unopened" proof set...Here and Here

When I received them today I was suspicious but opened them anyway, all of the packaging was wrong , but the reason I am posting this is that it's more then a simple case of someone re-packaging a set they opened to re-sell.

The coins in the "55" set are run of the mill.....but not in the original packaging, then I look at the 1952 Proof Set, (also in aftermarket packaging) The Proof Half..is not a Proof...it's a circulated business strike that has been Polished/Buffed/Tumbled/Altered or all of the above......... pics below, still in the after market cello.

Before I go on I realize that by opening them that I accepted the fact that , I get what I get.....thinking an average set no cams and so on.......not Fraud !

Anyway I filed a dispute and did some checking on the seller who has good FB, what I found was that he "probably" purchased these sets Here

I found this by searching his FB left for others on his page and also saw several other similar items he purchased from there and re-sold recently.

So I do not know who the bad guy is but I'm thinking it's one or the other....so be careful if your looking at these items, and if anyone else bought any...open them and check um out.

I will post when I know more.

As I said the coins are still stapled in the AM cello, here are some of the 50-60 pics I took of the 52......one even shows the leftover polish in the reeding....

cheezhed · December 30, 2009 10:26AM

Someone is committing fraud.

RWB · December 30, 2009 10:28AM

Sorry you got stuck with the mess, but thank you for letting others know.

7over8 · December 30, 2009 10:32AM

the unopened proof set thing - especially the 55-64 flat packs is a total joke.

I received many of these sets purchased by my relatives directly from the USM in those years and NONE, I repeat NONE, were ever sealed beyond the outer mailing package. The inner envelope, the one you see on the auctions, was NEVER sealed.

Dont fall for this game.

Bochiman · December 30, 2009 10:32AM

sinin1 · December 30, 2009 10:41AM

ouch, that is all I can say

Barry · December 30, 2009 10:43AM

How come you haven't negged him?

kaz · December 30, 2009 10:43AM

Sorry you were the victim of someone's scam. posting about it, and your photos, are a real service to the collecting community. I hope you get your money back pronto!

SUMORADA · December 30, 2009 10:55AM

How come you haven't negged him?

Because there is a chance in my mind that he was not aware of it, I also realize that the responsability is his since he sold them to me, I'm going to give it a day to see if he makes it right!

19Lyds · December 30, 2009 10:58AM

I'd be pissed Eric and file a not as described on the 1952 since it was sold as an "UNOPENED BOX SILVER PROOF SET". Sure the box was unopened but obviously its NOT a proof set. Let your seller go back to whomever he bought it from!

Is the 1955 all polished up as well?

RWB · December 30, 2009 10:59AM

Just for perspective, this fraud has been around since at least the late 1950s. Packaging was opened, one or more inferior coins substituted and the thing resealed. Ebay just makes the crooks, counterfeiters and fraudsters much more powerful.

segoja · December 30, 2009 11:50AM

The 1955 stamp doesn;t look right, also I've never seen such a partial stamp on a 1955 boxed set.

The 52 set is hard to diagnose..

Net net....don;t buy sealed proof sets.

Even the 1936-1942 boxed sets are showing up with frequency on E-Bay. Everyone I've seen are fakes.

SUMORADA · December 30, 2009 12:05PM

Is the 1955 all polished up as well?

No..it's a so-so set with a decent half...but re-packed!

The 1955 stamp doesn;t look right, also I've never seen such a partial stamp on a 1955 boxed set.

You are correct, I looked at some boxes I had packed away that were from "55" sets and the font was different, also the bottom lettering should have been slanted to the
right slightly, and last I noticed that on all of my old "55" boxes that in the center of the tape on the bottom there is a cut/perferated "U" shaped flap in the tape,

the one in question did not have that....

GAT · December 30, 2009 12:58PM

No surprise, this has been a on going scam on eBay for a long time. The best policy is to remember, unopen sets don't exist.

WinPitcher · December 30, 2009 1:22PM

Sorry to hear this happened to you Sumo.

Karma will get that guy, any way to return them still?

Steve

timber100 · December 30, 2009 2:04PM

Thanks for sharing the information, good luck on the return of your money

WoodenJefferson · December 30, 2009 2:15PM

This is one of those "dirtyfrickenrickenracken" moments for sure.

I'm trying to figure out what the word between the date and proof coins is, that is stamped in ink on top of the box....anyone?

Connecticoin · December 30, 2009 11:31PM

What a racket. The seller in the last link is selling raw cleaned AU commems as "Gem BU" and the suckers are lining up. Yet if you have one in a PCGS holder and described it honestly you are lucky to get 10 to 15% back of bid.

jmski52 · December 30, 2009 11:55PM

What a racket. The seller in the last link is selling raw cleaned AU commems as "Gem BU" and the suckers are lining up.

There really ought to be a way to hold ebay liable for guys like that one.

MORGANHUNTER2 · December 31, 2009 12:03AM

Neither set is legit. The 1952 boxes were not written with what looks like a #2 pencil.

I have 2 sets original sitting at home

unopened- still

thanks grandpa!

That 55 is pure BS- I would send the whole thing back to him and demand my full $$ back ASAP..

ElKevvo · December 31, 2009 2:29AM

I think the '52 looks to be along the same lines as a supposed '42 un-opened proof set that was discussed in another earlier thread. It is pretty widely known that the various unopened late 50's/60's sets in the 'original envelopes' are re-packaged and now it seems someone has sourced some likely looking boxes and a way to put them in cello and is producing these also.

It is too bad that because these are relatively small ripoffs law enforcement will not spend any time with them. Collectively the total is large, but no glory in spending a lot of time/money to arrest one guy in another state who most likely will get off with a slap on the wrist. It is a clear case of fraud IMO.

K

sinin1 · December 31, 2009 7:11AM

checked the auctions linked

if they are the same, pics and auction (vs BIN) almost doubled the value

glad you opened them as some would want to keep closed box until they die/sell
and that you knew the difference as many new buyers could not tell

BaronVonBaugh · December 31, 2009 10:52AM

He may say that you are trying to rip him off. That those are not what he sent.

SUMORADA · December 31, 2009 11:09AM

He may say that you are trying to rip him off. That those are not what he sent.

Yes he could...what's your point?...if my tone seems ...you know a little hostile..it's not directed at you. the whole thing just hits me in the gut..because folks that do not know me could think the same thing...and by the way......he has not responded to the ebay/paypal claim filed yesterday..........?

Happy New Year!

bushmaster8 · December 31, 2009 11:59AM

<< <i>...some would want to keep closed box >>

That is undoubtedly just the type of sale the perpetrator is hoping for.

SUMORADA · December 31, 2009 12:34PM

<< ...some would want to keep closed box >>

Nice pick up Greg....slick B'tards.......

Happy New Year Pal........

Barbercoin · December 31, 2009 12:40PM

Yep, unopened is a very easy term to sell. Sorry to hear.

I've seen just the empty mint envelopes sell on Ebay. Now, what do you think they're gonna do with them? I hate sammers.

rockdude · December 31, 2009 12:42PM

<< <i>I'd be pissed Eric and file a not as described on the 1952 since it was sold as an "UNOPENED BOX SILVER PROOF SET". Sure the box was unopened but obviously its NOT a proof set. Let your seller go back to whomever he bought it from!

Is the 1955 all polished up as well? >>

I would do the same thing. Does the purchase have a PayPal buyer protection offer? That's one mess that would be going back.

sinin1 · January 1, 2010 5:37AM

I would guess 123.nail will not be selling again in awhile after your 2 negs and PAYPAL chargeback (I assume he will get the coins back)

deathwish1fourstars is probably th eculprit as you mentioned

the 1955 sold and closed on Dec 5 - bought bu g3gis who left +ve feedback

I probably will not sell unopened boxes of anything after this

and remember seeing a 1951 proof set in a Capital plastics holder where the half was probably not a proof
but the dealer had it priced full rate and stood there like if you are stupid enough to by it, it is your fault
just like the table with the whizzed XF bust quarter priced as AU

bying/selling coins is a tuff business

coolest · January 1, 2010 6:12AM

I consider myself an experienced coin collector and much of this info is new to me.

Great thread!

SUMORADA · January 1, 2010 7:47AM

Update:

I just got home and received this ebay message........this is why I hesitated to NEG this guy but until I did there was no response!

( Dear beers3740,

If you go to ebay right now youl see unopened sets by Deathwish1fourstars thats wher these sets came from and he has had no problums with any of the sets hes sold. Why only you.

- 123.nail )

segoja · January 1, 2010 7:56AM

No problems because the others probably never opened them.

coinkeep · January 1, 2010 7:56AM

<< <i>Update:

I just got home and received this ebay message........this is why I hesitated to NEG this guy but until I did there was no response!

( Dear beers3740,

If you go to ebay right now youl see unopened sets by Deathwish1fourstars thats wher these sets came from and he has had no problums with any of the sets hes sold. Why only you.

- 123.nail ) >>

Give him a chance to make it right, but once that fails, opening an "Item Not As Described" dispute is good advice. I have been on both sides of these disputes, and the buyer almost always wins. It leaves honest sellers vulnerable, but the policy has helped me more than hurt. Now that eBay has taken this process over from PayPal, your results could be different, but whatever you do, don't just let it slide. Dishonest sellers should be held accountable.

Good luck!

SUMORADA · January 1, 2010 8:11AM

Give him a chance to make it right, but once that fails, opening an "Item Not As Described" dispute is good advice. I have been on both sides of these disputes, and the buyer almost always wins. It leaves honest sellers vulnerable, but the policy has helped me more than hurt. Now that eBay has taken this process over from PayPal, your results could be different, but whatever you do, don't just let it slide. Dishonest sellers should be held accountable.

I have already filed a claim with paypal, and I agree if this guy makes it right the NEGs will go away...I did not want to NEG this guy because I think he was just trying to flip and make a few bucks....which I have no problem with, but as I just reminded him....at the bottom of his auction it states...........

"Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing."

NitroCruiser · January 2, 2010 5:04AM

<< <i>He may say that you are trying to rip him off. That those are not what he sent.

Yes he could...what's your point?...if my tone seems ...you know a little hostile..it's not directed at you. the whole thing just hits me in the gut..because folks that do not know me could think the same thing...and by the way......he has not responded to the ebay/paypal claim filed yesterday..........?

Happy New Year! >>

SUMORADA seems that some folks here have suggested that the packaging is not quite right. If that's the case, that's all you should need to prove fraud, regardless of what the seller claims he sent. Just be sure to save the images from the sale. Good luck hope you get a fair resolution.

sinin1 · January 2, 2010 6:55AM

what is fair resolution in a case like this?

the 'unopened' box has a premium over random proof sets

return and 100% refund?

did the act of opening box lower value of item irrespective of contents?

and how do you tell if Deathwish1fourstars is the person committing fraud, or are they another peson being fooled/screwed

and is this something that is illegal/punishable? and what dollar value needs involved before the police get involved?

tideman · January 2, 2010 7:29PM

I got had from one of these scams as well, not from this seller, but another. About a year ago I purchased 2ea 50-55 unopened proof sets, and one 1942 set (out of embarrassment, I won't say how much I paid for all of these). My intent was to keep them unopened and pass them on; however, I decided one set each was enough and opted to sell the others, which I listed on ebay. The first set I sold was opened by the buyer, who immediately contacted me accusing me of being a crook, thief, etc. In shock, I immediately refunded his money, apologized, and told him who I bought them from. I quickly opened the remaining sets--garbage. Bottom line: I'm out a lot of money; the individual I bought them from sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of these sets, unopened CC dollars, etc., and there are no alternatives left, but suck it up. I'm still thinking about contacting ebay, but at this late date, little will come of it. However, ebay could possibly contact other buyers and alert them. Any recommendations from those with experience in this area> Happy New Year!!!

greghansen · January 2, 2010 9:10PM

A very disturbing story. For every person like SUMORADA with enough experience to recognize the frud...there's probably at least a dozen who have no clue how bad they've been had. Thank you for the 'eye opener'. That will keep me out of that area of collecting.

tincup · January 2, 2010 11:08PM

tideman, welcome to the forum. Very sorry to hear that story for your first post.... ......and appreciate that you were willing to share that with us. We learn from each others mistakes.

Man.... I'm scared to check out the few unopened sets that I have. Fortunately, most were purchased 5+ years ago, but that still is no guarantee.

Unfortunately, this is a very easy scam to perpetrate, and makes some tidy dollars for the perps. About all we can do is expose the crooks when we find them.

Walmann · January 2, 2010 11:32PM

"and there are no alternatives left, but suck it up. I'm still thinking about contacting ebay, but at this late date, little will come of it. However, ebay could possibly contact other buyers and alert them."

If they were so concerned about buyer protection this is what they should do but won't. Ebay did not like ebayers contacting one another warning one another of dubious coins and scams, hence the blocking of ids.

SUMORADA · January 3, 2010 12:49AM

A couple of days ago I placed high bids on this LINK and the other (4) sets this seller has that are closing today,

I also sent him a message and suggested that he make sure these were "up to par" because I would be opening them on camera,
the following day they canceled all of my bids.

SUMORADA · January 4, 2010 9:02AM

Paypal..sucks

Hello SUMORADA INC ERIC E BEERS,

We have concluded our investigation into this case. Unfortunately, at this
time we are unable to decide this claim in your favor.

-----------------------------------
Case Details
-----------------------------------

-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------

Seller's Name: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Seller's Transaction ID: 4TP459461G8531339

Transaction Date: Dec 25, 2009
Transaction Amount: -$541.49 USD
Your Transaction ID: 0A7467930R6672513
Case Number: PP-865-895-656

Buyer's Transaction ID: 0A7467930R6672513

Thanks,

PayPal

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link in the top right corner of any PayPal page.

----------------------------------------------------------------

PayPal Email ID PP1041

sinin1 · January 4, 2010 9:18AM

so the seller has a 7 day return - are you going to return the 52 set?

or are you afraid you will be screwed more?
(that happened to me once -got a gold dollar - submitted to TPG- came back die-struck copy - told seller - they said return - I did - they said they did not get it)

SUMORADA · January 4, 2010 9:23AM

I don't think I can do anything at this point.....I'm out the $$$.

When some of the folks who bought these open them there gonna be p........d!

adamlaneus · January 4, 2010 9:25AM

You need some brown tape, a pencil, an alternate eBay selling account and a place to store away your morality for a week or two.

And maybe some polish.

Yikes.

Frankcoins · January 4, 2010 9:28AM

Contact Susan McMillan, ANA Consumer Awareness Coordinator at 719-482-9850 . She was the main contact person with Ebay when they were developing the "Approved slab list and ban on listing grades and prices on raw coins policy" that was supposed to fix all the coin problems on ebay.

bushmaster8 · January 4, 2010 9:31AM

Paypal does indeed suck!

SUMORADA · January 10, 2010 8:31AM

It looks as though someone else opened one of the SEALED SETS from the source.........

LINKY TO STINKY

slipgate · January 10, 2010 8:40AM

Did you pay via paypal and credit card or paypal and bank account. I would think "significanly not as described" would fit the bill. You could also just send them back with delivery confirmation and then dispute it after that that you returned them.

UtahCoin · January 10, 2010 9:23AM

He's also got an "unopened" 1885 CC GSA Morgan that buyers are falling over themselves bidding on...

What a con man.

19Lyds · January 10, 2010 9:58AM

Neg Him Eric!

Here is a heads up on an ebay scam ....."unopened proof sets" New Update 1/4/10"

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Here is a heads up on an ebay scam .....&quot;unopened proof sets&quot; New Update 1/4/10&quot;

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Here is a heads up on an ebay scam ....."unopened proof sets" New Update 1/4/10"