How does one tell of a coin has been lasered?

Bear · December 29, 2009 8:03AM

Is it used on just gold or are silver coins

exposed to the same chicanery?

Frankcoins · December 29, 2009 8:28AM

<< Is it used on just gold or are silver coins

exposed to the same chicanery? >>

I don't think they exist. Lasering metal is pretty brutal, plus the metal has to be dulled with paint or anodizing because a shiny
surface would relect the laser beam back onto itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hB1ssQwPg

Res · December 29, 2009 8:44AM

<< 

<< Is it used on just gold or are silver coins

exposed to the same chicanery? >>

I don't think they exist. Lasering metal is pretty brutal, plus the metal has to be dulled with paint or anodizing because a shiny
surface would relect the laser beam back onto itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hB1ssQwPg >>

I know nothing about lasering coins, but wouldn't the laser have to be held at 90 degrees to the coin to reflect back (angle of reflection = angle of incidence)

PerryHall · December 29, 2009 9:09AM

Based on past threads, lasering is only used to remove hairlines on proof gold. I've never personally seen any first hand evidence of it.

coindeuce · December 29, 2009 9:14AM

I've been informed that the laser alteration process is intended only for proof silver and gold coins, as a method of diminishing hairlines in the fields. I believe I have seen a lasered Proof Morgan dollar. The alteration is detectable with careful examination.

lathmach · December 29, 2009 9:16AM

"Lasering" of coins doesn't exist, as Frank indicates.
It is possible that laser welding equipment may be used to do repair work on coins, such as melting metal as fill for a hole or melting metal to fill damage, but any finish work would still have to be done by hand by a coin doctor.
I used to use Electron Beam Fusion in Milwaukee as a vendor to do laser welding for me on small parts.
The foreman there told me they have to look through a microscope at the work as they're doing the welds.
It is an interesting concept that it may become a way to do repairs without having to get the coin hot, though.
To use it to smooth out scratches or to impart a finish.......forget it.

Ray

RWB · December 29, 2009 9:27AM

Laser etching equipment is now used by the Mint to crest the “frosted” surface on cameo proof coins. Under magnification, it looks like snake skin (a term invented by a forum member).

LindeDad · December 29, 2009 9:30AM

<< Laser etching equipment is now used by the Mint to crest the “frosted” surface on cameo proof coins. Under magnification, it looks like snake skin (a term invented by a forum member). >>

RWB is it used on the dies that make the coins?

RYK · December 29, 2009 9:39AM

Lack of body hair on the surface which has been lasered.

PawPaul · December 29, 2009 9:54AM

....that's right , no such thing as lasering coins - oh look : there go's a flying pig !

coinguy1 · December 29, 2009 10:01AM

<< Based on past threads, lasering is only used to remove hairlines on proof gold. I've never personally seen any first hand evidence of it. >>

Proof gold is the context in which I have heard about it, and I have been shown a couple of Proof gold coins which I was told had been lasered and rejected by major grading companies.

RYK · December 29, 2009 10:06AM

<< 

<< Based on past threads, lasering is only used to remove hairlines on proof gold. I've never personally seen any first hand evidence of it. >>

Proof gold is the context in which I have heard about it, and I have been shown a couple of Proof gold coins which I was told had been lasered and rejected by major grading companies. >>

Next time, perhaps they should leave a few hairs on, so that the surfaces look more original.

PerryHall · December 29, 2009 10:16AM

<< 

<< Based on past threads, lasering is only used to remove hairlines on proof gold. I've never personally seen any first hand evidence of it. >>

Proof gold is the context in which I have heard about it, and I have been shown a couple of Proof gold coins which I was told had been lasered and rejected by major grading companies. >>

How did they look compared to unmolested gold proofs?

WTCG · December 29, 2009 12:13PM

<< Based on past threads, lasering is only used to remove hairlines on proof gold. I've never personally seen any first hand evidence of it. >>

At the next big show look for proof gold coins housed in "third world" holders and odds are those coins were lasered or altered in some way or another.

Proof gold coins that have had their fields lasered will have fields that bear a "watery" look, as if there are ripples or tiny waves . An unlasered proof gold coin should have smooth fields. By the devices such as the stars there could be a "halo" near where the raised devices meet the fields. Lasered surfaces will also have a tendency to haze over after time.

sinin1 · December 29, 2009 12:26PM

this one had the beam set too high

PerryHall · December 29, 2009 10:46PM

Can anyone post a pic?

coinguy1 · December 29, 2009 10:50PM

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

Walkerguy21D · December 29, 2009 11:26PM

I was shown a raw Proof Barber half at FUN that allegedly had been lasered; I was told to look for (and saw) the faint ripple effects in the fields that WTCG mentioned he has seen on Proof gold. It also had an overall 'too perfect' look to it at first glance.

ksteelheader · December 29, 2009 11:30PM

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

And the technology to show pictures of the lasering also exist.

PerryHall · December 29, 2009 11:30PM

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

I know it wouldn't be easy to photograph but if it can be seen with the human eye, certainly someone can take pics showing the lasering.

leothelyon · December 29, 2009 11:32PM

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

Here, you might be able to find your answer.

Leo

coindeuce · December 30, 2009 12:24AM

<< 

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

And the technology to show pictures of the lasering also exist. >>

So what? If the opportunity to photograph such a coin doesn't exist, then the only thing that matters is that qualified numismatists report their opinions accurately. You can either accept my opinion or ignore it. The Proof Morgan dollar which I witnessed as having evidence of lasered alteration was at an auction house pre-sale viewing. How long do you think I would have lasted in that room if I had whipped out a camera and my numismatic super sleuth badge?

sinin1 · December 30, 2009 12:32AM

those 5 Rand coins from the link look interesting, but I could not tell if the lasering was done post minting or on the die

coinguy1 · December 30, 2009 12:36AM

<< 

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

I know it wouldn't be easy to photograph but if it can be seen with the human eye, certainly someone can take pics showing the lasering. >>

Typically, the owners of such coins and/or those who did the work wouldn't be in any hurry to post images.

badger · December 30, 2009 1:09AM

I was responsible for developing a laser kiss-cutting system for packaging applications. The system was computer controlled. We could not only control the laser path but also the depth of cut. We custom-cut labels that had two layers. The laser would cut through the top paper layer without damaging the adjacent backing paper. Pretty neat.

I always wanted to try zapping a proof coin to see what would happen. I was going to angle the laser so the beam reflection would not damage the equipment. Never had the guts to put the coin in the $5M machine.

Dave

ksteelheader · December 30, 2009 1:10AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

I know it wouldn't be easy to photograph but if it can be seen with the human eye, certainly someone can take pics showing the lasering. >>

Typically, the owners of such coins and/or those who did the work wouldn't be in any hurry to post images. >>

It's totally amazing that the big dealers and CAC warn us of such things and always have excuses as to why they don't have pictures.

PerryHall · December 30, 2009 1:12AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

I know it wouldn't be easy to photograph but if it can be seen with the human eye, certainly someone can take pics showing the lasering. >>

Typically, the owners of such coins and/or those who did the work wouldn't be in any hurry to post images. >>

And yet, pics of the work of the coin doctors are published all the time. The the major TPG's should publish these pics if they truly want to put the coin doctors out of business.

coinguy1 · December 30, 2009 1:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Can anyone post a pic? >>

An image likely wouldn't show evidence of lasering, and a few skeptics have used the lack of such images as an argument that lasering of Proof gold coins is a myth. The coins exist and they have even been seen by real people at and outside of the major grading companies..

>>

I know it wouldn't be easy to photograph but if it can be seen with the human eye, certainly someone can take pics showing the lasering. >>

Typically, the owners of such coins and/or those who did the work wouldn't be in any hurry to post images. >>

And yet, pics of the work of the coin doctors are published all the time. The the major TPG's should publish these pics if they truly want to put the coin doctors out of business. >>

I don't know what the rights of the grading companies would be with respect to taking and publishing images of coins they don't own. However, if you think or know that it would be permissible, why not contact someone at PCGS and/or Coinfacts and suggest that the images be posted and discussed there and/or here.

adamlaneus · December 30, 2009 1:22AM

<< Never had the guts to put the coin in the $5M machine. >>

Some of these machines seem to be many times more expensive than any coins they may be used to process.

I also think that PCGS might be in an excellent position to post pictures of this sort of stuff (if it exists).

RWB · December 30, 2009 4:10AM

RWB is it used on the dies that make the coins?

It has been used on both working dies (before plating) and on master dies, but I don't have the details of which coins.

WTCG · December 30, 2009 4:49AM

Evidence of lasering wouldn't show up well in pictures. It really takes viewing an example in person to accurately sense the telltale signs.

Lasering machines can be very expensive but when proof gold coins are concerned the value difference between one grade to another on just one coin can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

LindeDad · December 30, 2009 6:12AM

I will note that I sure hope the eye surgeons that do eye surgery with lasers do not use that laser that was shown in the link in this post.
A knife and a chain saw both cut but do you think the later is the tool to cut your steak.

fc · December 30, 2009 7:05AM

I have always thought, in my opinion, that it is a urban coin legend.
Perhaps it was tried and failed. I do not know. It has been discussed
in the past and labeled as a method for doctoring proofs, bell lines on
franklins, and FS jeffersons. Who knows what else?

I just know that if I was presented a coin and told it was lasered I
would ask the person how in the world do they know that for sure?
Perhaps we are looking at some area that was caused by a different
technique or event?

I also thought many proof gold coins have an orange peel like surface.
Smoothing out the fields would be folly on such a coin? A picture of the
orange peel look is included below. The reason I say folly is that having
a smooth area surrounded by orange peel would stand out like night
and day? I would think so but I have not personally handled gold proof coins.
They are just too expensive for me to see in the places I frequent.

Some of the posters who are discussing this in this thread have made
claims that seem wild in the past or wrong to me. WTCG, for example,
in past threads you made this claim:

"It sounds cynical, but probably 3/4 of all graded proof gold coins have been lasered or doctored to some extent.

The fields on an original proof gold coin should be smooth while lasered surfaces will show a "rippled" watery effect. Also there is often a "halo" around the coin's devices, typically around the stars or the mottos. Often a lasered surface will develop haze over time."

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543817&highlight_key=y&keyword1=laser

We are now supposed to take you seriously?

So with that high of a percentage you must think very very poorly
of all the certified PCGS/NGC proof gold for sale eh? When you say watery
and rippled it makes me think of the orange peel like surfaces and not
doctoring. I dunno, but throwing around stats of 3/4 of all proof gold
coins being doctored smells of pulling that out of thin air to me.
Obviously an unlasered proof gold coin does not have to have smooth
surfaces.

Another poster says they exist yet has no proof. He just states he has
seen something odd on some proof gold coins and was told it was
possibly lasering. Perhaps it was something else? Or maybe it was
lasering. We just do not know.

coindeuce... it is not a matter of just accepting your opinion or not. I
fully think that you think you have seen a lasered proof coin but I am
unsure why you came to that conclusion that it was lasered and not
some other method? Anyone can say that some anomaly on a coin
looks wrong but to then state it was lasered without any evidence of
that being the case is just a plain old guess. Not an informed opinion
in my mind.

All in all, i like when this topic comes up because I always hope someone
who has access to these type of expensive coins will pull out their microscope camera setup and share with us what they think is an example
of lasering. I has been many years of this being discussed off and on
and only claims have been made with no naming of names, pointing
out an example from an auction archive, or a picture of the area that
was doctored.

feel free to form your own conclusion. i know what mine is. i think it is
possible but without some type of proof anything is possible eh?

Hussulo · December 30, 2009 7:23AM

Here are links to smaller and more precise lasers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFFHKx1n4Ic&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFFHKx1n4Ic&feature=related

WTCG · December 30, 2009 8:06AM

<< 
Some of the posters who are discussing this in this thread have made
claims that seem wild in the past or wrong to me. WTCG, for example,
in past threads you made this claim:

"It sounds cynical, but probably 3/4 of all graded proof gold coins have been lasered or doctored to some extent.

The fields on an original proof gold coin should be smooth while lasered surfaces will show a "rippled" watery effect. Also there is often a "halo" around the coin's devices, typically around the stars or the mottos. Often a lasered surface will develop haze over time."

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543817&highlight_key=y&keyword1=laser

We are now supposed to take you seriously?

All in all, i like when this topic comes up because I always hope someone
who has access to these type of expensive coins will pull out their microscope camera setup and share with us what they think is an example
of lasering. I has been many years of this being discussed off and on
and only claims have been made with no naming of names, pointing
out an example from an auction archive, or a picture of the area that
was doctored.

feel free to form your own conclusion. i know what mine is. i think it is
possible but without some type of proof anything is possible eh?

>>

Okay, perhaps the 3/4 number is a little too high, but the truth is that a lot of classic proof gold coins, perhaps even a majority of them, have been doctored in some way or another.

How do I know the telltale signs of proof gold doctoring? Though I'm no authority on the subject I have discussed these issues countless times with currently employed PCGS and NGC graders and a large number of former graders. Their conclusions were almost uniformly similar, and their conclusions are what I have shared on this thread so far. The guys who handle proof gold coins frequently (or as frequently as can be compared to the typical coin dealer) tend to agree that a lot of the proof gold coins aren't totally unmolested. I've even talked to people who have witnessed the lasering process live and they issue the same conclusions.

I have also had "dealers" approach me in the past about lasering my coins for a fee and in turn provide a "guarantee" that my coins would grade the same or higher than before.

There are even a few dealers who sell lasered proof gold coins who will fully disclose the fact that the coins were lasered. Take a good look at those coins and then compare them to examples graded by PCGS or NGC with CAC approval and draw your own conclusions regarding the differences.

So how do you want to take me seriously? For a start, I have handled my share of classic proof gold coins and I have sold every single coin I've handled for a profit (batting 1.000 so far with proof gold). Currently I have two classic proof gold coins in inventory and both have CAC approval. I also have contacts that are far experienced in the series and I can always refer to them for consultation. I also attend every major convention so I've had the opportunity to view a lot of proof gold coins. Although nobody is perfect, I believe I have most of my possible weak links covered.

So fc, since you're the one who's trying to question my credibility, let's talk about your proof gold handling qualifications since you're such a know-it-all on the subject. What evidence do you have that lasering is an urban legend? How many classic proof gold coins have you purchased during your lifetime? How many coin shows have you attended in the last year, and how many proof gold coins have you personally inspected in hand? How's your proof gold registry set coming along?

Alrighty Matthew Yaklin, aka fc, here's your chance to impress me with your credentials. I'm all eyes right now...

WTCG · December 30, 2009 8:25AM

Here's a clarification about the subject of haze. The haze that can form after lasering is ingrained into the surfaces of the coin and cannot be removed without substantially damaging the surfaces. The haze that many people are more familiar with, commonly referred to as "patina" or "original skin" is superficial, an occurence that can be sometimes considered as a light form of toning. That type of haze can be easily removed with an application of MS70 or even running warm water.

ksteelheader · December 30, 2009 8:33AM

<< 

<< 
Some of the posters who are discussing this in this thread have made
claims that seem wild in the past or wrong to me. WTCG, for example,
in past threads you made this claim:

"It sounds cynical, but probably 3/4 of all graded proof gold coins have been lasered or doctored to some extent.

The fields on an original proof gold coin should be smooth while lasered surfaces will show a "rippled" watery effect. Also there is often a "halo" around the coin's devices, typically around the stars or the mottos. Often a lasered surface will develop haze over time."

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543817&highlight_key=y&keyword1=laser

We are now supposed to take you seriously?

All in all, i like when this topic comes up because I always hope someone
who has access to these type of expensive coins will pull out their microscope camera setup and share with us what they think is an example
of lasering. I has been many years of this being discussed off and on
and only claims have been made with no naming of names, pointing
out an example from an auction archive, or a picture of the area that
was doctored.

feel free to form your own conclusion. i know what mine is. i think it is
possible but without some type of proof anything is possible eh?

>>

Okay, perhaps the 3/4 number is a little too high, but the truth is that a lot of classic proof gold coins, perhaps even a majority of them, have been doctored in some way or another.

How do I know the telltale signs of proof gold doctoring? Though I'm no authority on the subject I have discussed these issues countless times with currently employed PCGS and NGC graders and a large number of former graders. Their conclusions were almost uniformly similar, and their conclusions are what I have shared on this thread so far. The guys who handle proof gold coins frequently (or as frequently as can be compared to the typical coin dealer) tend to agree that a lot of the proof gold coins aren't totally unmolested. I've even talked to people who have witnessed the lasering process live and they issue the same conclusions.

So how do you want to take me seriously? For a start, I have handled my share of classic proof gold coins and I have sold every single coin I've handled for a profit (batting 1.000 so far with proof gold). Currently I have two classic proof gold coins in inventory and both have CAC approval. I also have contacts that are far experienced in the series and I can always refer to them for consultation. I also attend every major convention so I've had the opportunity to view a lot of proof gold coins. Although nobody is perfect, I believe I have most of my possible weak links covered.

So fc, since you're the one who's trying to question my credibility, let's talk about your proof gold handling qualifications since you're such a know-it-all on the subject. What evidence do you have that lasering is an urban legend? How many classic proof gold coins have you purchased during your lifetime? How many coin shows have you attended in the last year, and how many proof gold coins have you personally inspected in hand? How's your proof gold registry set coming along?

Alrighty Matthew Yaklin, aka fc, here's your chance to impress me with your credentials. I'm all eyes right now... >>

A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!!

coindeuce · December 30, 2009 8:40AM

Wei - I believe that the haze you refer to as a side effect of lasering proof gold coins could be more effectively described as etching, as on etched glass, or as on a silver coin that has had the surfaces etched by PVC.

coindeuce · December 30, 2009 8:46AM

<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge?

WTCG · December 30, 2009 8:47AM

<< Wei - I believe that the haze you refer to as a side effect of lasering proof gold coins could be more effectively described as etching, as on etched glass, or as on a silver coin that has had the surfaces etched by PVC. >>

You are correct. That's a good way to describe it.

ksteelheader · December 30, 2009 9:25AM

<< 

<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge? >>

The point is that the experts say that they are out there. Until they can walk on water, I'll say they're liars without pictorial proof.

pennyannie · December 30, 2009 9:50AM

I can picture a coin collector walking up to the laser operator on the factory floor and handing him a 100k proof coin and telling him to improve it. Make sure to tell him it is only worth 100k. I doubt you would have many takers.

Or does the coin collector slip him a 100 dollar bill to go take a coffee break while he whips the laser into a frothy frency to fix the coin.

I do not doubt that coins get lasered, just do not see who is actually doing the work. I do not think those laser pointers sold at Office Max count.

AMRC · December 30, 2009 9:54AM

Why with Laser detecting glasses I suppose. Is this a trick question?

coindeuce · December 30, 2009 10:49AM

<< 

<< 

<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge? >>

The point is that the experts say that they are out there. Until they can walk on water, I'll say they're liars without pictorial proof. >>

No, the point is that several here offered information that would hopefully answer the question posed by the OP, for the purpose of trying to be helpful. But you've turned this into your crusade for making yourself an authority to be reckoned with. Again I ask: what is your point? Will pictures help you to avoid buying a doctored Classic proof gold coin? I doubt it. There. See how easy it is to be a doubter without merit?

Frankcoins · December 30, 2009 11:27AM

A jeweler can totally remove hairlines from metals using a buffing wheel and jewelers rouge. Cameo areas can be protected with masking.

coinguy1 · December 30, 2009 11:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge? >>

The point is that the experts say that they are out there. Until they can walk on water, I'll say they're liars without pictorial proof. >>

No, the point is that several here offered information that would hopefully answer the question posed by the OP, for the purpose of trying to be helpful. But you've turned this into your crusade for making yourself an authority to be reckoned with. Again I ask: what is your point? Will pictures help you to avoid buying a doctored Classic proof gold coin? I doubt it. There. See how easy it is to be a doubter without merit? >>

Don't sweat it. If he wants to call us, as well as representatives at the major grading companies, "liars", because no one has posted pictures as proof, so be it.

fc · December 30, 2009 11:44AM

<< Okay, perhaps the 3/4 number is a little too high, but the truth is that a lot of classic proof gold coins, perhaps even a majority of them, have been doctored in some way or another. >>

Yet many of these coins sit in PCGS or NGC slabs. One could almost
say the majority of them do now days? Yet I cannot find a single example
of ANACS or NCS putting the label of lasered or some such thing on
the label stating the problem. I cannot find a single auction description
mentioning the word laser"ing"/"ed" at Heritage. How odd is that?

<< How do I know the telltale signs of proof gold doctoring? Though I'm no authority on the subject I have discussed these issues countless times with currently employed PCGS and NGC graders and a large number of former graders. Their conclusions were almost uniformly similar, and their conclusions are what I have shared on this thread so far. The guys who handle proof gold coins frequently (or as frequently as can be compared to the typical coin dealer) tend to agree that a lot of the proof gold coins aren't totally unmolested. I've even talked to people who have witnessed the lasering process live and they issue the same conclusions. >>

Who are these people who have witnessed coin lasering?

Do they not wish to see the perps fined and jailed according to US law? "§ 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins"

Yet it is all hearsay really. You have no direct experience of the event.

<< I have also had "dealers" approach me in the past about lasering my coins for a fee and in turn provide a "guarantee" that my coins would grade the same or higher than before. >>

It would be nice if PCGS Authorized Dealers stepped up to the plate
and did something about it eh? A good start might be as simple as
showing proof that it is taking place instead of hearsay.

There are even a few dealers who sell lasered proof gold coins who will fully disclose the fact that the coins were lasered. Take a good look at those coins and then compare them to examples graded by PCGS or NGC with CAC approval and draw your own conclusions regarding the differences. >>

If they freely disclose such information could you share with us who
they are so we can contact them and ask if they have the time to take
some pictures for educational purposes?

<< So how do you want to take me seriously? For a start, I have handled my share of classic proof gold coins and I have sold every single coin I've handled for a profit (batting 1.000 so far with proof gold). Currently I have two classic proof gold coins in inventory and both have CAC approval. I also have contacts that are far experienced in the series and I can always refer to them for consultation. I also attend every major convention so I've had the opportunity to view a lot of proof gold coins. Although nobody is perfect, I believe I have most of my possible weak links covered.

So fc, since you're the one who's trying to question my credibility, let's talk about your proof gold handling qualifications since you're such a know-it-all on the subject. What evidence do you have that lasering is an urban legend? How many classic proof gold coins have you purchased during your lifetime? How many coin shows have you attended in the last year, and how many proof gold coins have you personally inspected in hand? How's your proof gold registry set coming along?

Alrighty Matthew Yaklin, aka fc, here's your chance to impress me with your credentials. I'm all eyes right now... >>

In my first post to this thread I stated that proof gold coins are so expensive that the places I frequent do not carry them. I read about
them in auctions, catalogs, and where ever else I can find educational
information. I am the rookie looking to see this lasering thing proven
once and for all on a public forum but all I ever get is hearsay.

This topic has come up on this forum for years now without a single
post by any author nailing it down as a fact.

I can say perfect counterfeit examples of proof gold coins are being
made in china and being sold on the bourse. It is taking place right
now as I type this. Sounds reasonable right? I over heard it from a
person who heard it from a person who witnessed them being made
in a factory in china. Watch out everyone! Buy only PCGS/CAC and
you will be safe.

On another note, try googling this topic and attempt to find anything substantial. Good luck with that! I have tried.

WTCG · December 30, 2009 11:45AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

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<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge? >>

The point is that the experts say that they are out there. Until they can walk on water, I'll say they're liars without pictorial proof. >>

No, the point is that several here offered information that would hopefully answer the question posed by the OP, for the purpose of trying to be helpful. But you've turned this into your crusade for making yourself an authority to be reckoned with. Again I ask: what is your point? Will pictures help you to avoid buying a doctored Classic proof gold coin? I doubt it. There. See how easy it is to be a doubter without merit? >>

Don't sweat it. If he wants to call us, as well as representatives at the major grading companies, "liars", because no one has posted pictures as proof, so be it. >>

Not to mention with his theory he still thinks O.J. is innocent because he hasn't seen a video of the Juice using the bodies of his ex-wife and a waiter as a pincushion for his knife.

WTCG · December 30, 2009 11:52AM

So it's highly unlikely you're ever going to buy or sell a proof gold coin, so why even bother to get worked up over an issue that probably won't ever directly concern you? It isn't because of ego, is it?

So reading all about them from catalogs and online blogs makes you the authority on proof gold, to the point that you try to descredit others who may have much more actual experience handling those coins than you ever will? Sounds a bit ambitious and egocentric to me. Perhaps you should listen and heed those who have more experience than you and learn from them.

As of now classic gold proof coin counterfeits from China or from anywhere else in the universe are still largely unknown. If they're out in the marketplace they haven't been as prevalent as counterfeit silver coins.

fc · December 30, 2009 12:12PM

I have been through this before in as much detail as I could find.
The old thread is here:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=709001&highlight_key=y&keyword1=lasered

So this is not just a passing fancy of mine in this thread only. Multiple
people have asked over the years with nothing to show for it.

ksteelheader · December 30, 2009 8:20PM

<< 

<< 

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<< A picture is worth a thousand words. We're told they're out there, show us!! >>

Ken, a picture on a computer monitor is only as good as the how the viewer chooses to interpret. Somehow I'm inclined to believe that you wouldn't accept 1000 pictures. Besides, you're never going to be in the market for classic proof gold, so what's the point of your challenge? >>

The point is that the experts say that they are out there. Until they can walk on water, I'll say they're liars without pictorial proof. >>

No, the point is that several here offered information that would hopefully answer the question posed by the OP, for the purpose of trying to be helpful. But you've turned this into your crusade for making yourself an authority to be reckoned with. Again I ask: what is your point? Will pictures help you to avoid buying a doctored Classic proof gold coin? I doubt it. There. See how easy it is to be a doubter without merit? >>

Don't sweat it. If he wants to call us, as well as representatives at the major grading companies, "liars", because no one has posted pictures as proof, so be it. >>

Mark, you make us believe that you're really interested in protecting the hobby, especially with your involvement in CAC, and this is the best you can come up with??

How does one tell of a coin has been lasered?

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