There is a huge difference between a dealer standing behind what he sells and providing honest opinions/accurate descriptions, VS. guaranteeing that a grading company wont change its opinion of the coin, if resubmitted, or that others will agree with the grade.
I'm not talking about a situation where PCGS changes its mind on a grade from, say PR66 to PR65. I am talking about a situation where a coin has environmental damage or has been doctored. In that case, PCGS will put the coin in a Genuine slab. I expect dealers to be able to recognize those coins. I suspect the NEN coin is probably one of those coins.
Here is my analogy. Suppose I go to the supermarket and buy a quart of milk. If the milk smells bad when I open the carton at home, then I expect the supermarket to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. Similarly, if I buy a PCGS graded coin from a dealer, and if PCGS says the coin has environmental damage or has questionable color, I expect the dealer to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. In my opinion, that NEN coin doesn't pass the smell test.
Perhaps, if dealers are held accountable, that accountability could help to flush out some of the bad coins that exist in holders. Greater dealer accountability might also help eliminate coin doctors.
<< <i> There is a huge difference between a dealer standing behind what he sells and providing honest opinions/accurate descriptions, VS. guaranteeing that a grading company wont change its opinion of the coin, if resubmitted, or that others will agree with the grade.
I'm not talking about a situation where PCGS changes its mind on a grade from, say PR66 to PR65. I am talking about a situation where a coin has environmental damage or has been doctored. In that case, PCGS will put the coin in a Genuine slab. I expect dealers to be able to recognize those coins. I suspect the NEN coin is probably one of those coins.
Here is my analogy. Suppose I go to the supermarket and buy a quart of milk. If the milk smells bad when I open the carton at home, then I expect the supermarket to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. Similarly, if I buy a PCGS graded coin from a dealer, and if PCGS says the coin has environmental damage or has questionable color, I expect the dealer to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. In my opinion, that NEN coin doesn't pass the smell test.
Perhaps, if dealers are held accountable, that accountability could help to flush out some of the bad coins that exist in holders. Greater dealer accountability might also help eliminate coin doctors. >>
You must already know that the determination of whether a coin has been doctored, artificially toned, etc. can be subjective and/or inconsistent. And unless the seller of a certified coin did something to it himself or knows someone who did, there is no good reason why he should have to bear any responsibility to the buyer, if a grading company later renders a different opinion. Why should the subsequent negative opinion be considered any more correct or binding than the initial positive one?
And if the foremost grading companies can't recognize certain doctoring, how/why would you expect the dealers who are selling the coins to be able to? Please explain that?
<< <i>Looks like someone blew a big fat sneeze on that poor guy, and the "remnants" caused all that splatter stain. He needs to be sent back to PCGS for regrading. >>
Copper folks....What are your thoughts on this NEN 1881 PR66BN IHC?? A lot going on here!!!!
I'll try to focus on the question. I don't like the coin and would not purchase it based on the photograph. My preference is for clean proof indians with a lot of luster, especially since they can found in most early 1880s proofs. Splotchy toning and spots turn me off as fast as cheek hits and marks on the nose. Foggy "mirrors" do not a PR66 make .
From the picture the coin looks played with to me. It's relatively easy to produce the color pattern seen on the feathers. There appears to be a small hit on the chin and the strike around the top diamond looks weak - but again this is probably a result of the photo.
Even, attractive color, GREAT luster, a clean face, exceptional mirrors, and sublime toning are what attract me to PR IHCs in PR66 or PR67.
It appears NEN pulled the coin. Wished I saved a copy on my hard drive. That was a good move on their part.
Well, there are plenty of other bad coins on their site. I don't collect Lincoln Cents, but I am suspicious of this PCGS MS65RD Lincoln, described as "lustrous, solid, red gem"
<< <i>Well, there are plenty of other bad coins on their site. I don't collect Lincoln Cents, but I am suspicious of this PCGS MS65RD Lincoln, described as "lustrous, solid, red gem" >>
What, so this is now a "Let's bash NEN!" thread?
Why not bash PCGS instead? They're the ones holdering these "bad coins" (your words not mine).
NEN has plenty of gems, but those don't stay on the site long because they sell. So those that tend to languish the longest (and are thus the most visible) will be the marginal or subpar coins.
What, so this is now a "Let's bash NEN!" thread? Why not bash PCGS instead? They're the ones holdering these "bad coins" (your words not mine).
Well, let's see....PCGS won't stand behind its grades, starting January 1.
And, dealers don't think that they should be forced to stand behind the PCGS grades of the coins that they sell.
And, this dealer is a member of PNG, and shows the PNG seal with the words "Knowledge", "Integrity" and "Responsibility" on his web site.
If I bought this coin for $6,250, and it turned out that I couldn't re-sell it as MS65RD, apparently, you would just tell me that "grading is a subjective process", and I should just swallow my losses.
So, I have a couple of questions:
1. In the minds of coin dealers, is the meaning of the words "knowledge", "integrity" and "responsibility" as subjective as the grading process?
2. How many badly graded PCGS red-copper coins do you think that a collector will swallow, before he realizes that he is making a mistake and walk away from this hobby?
<< <i>If I bought this coin for $6,250, and it turned out that I couldn't re-sell it as MS65RD, apparently, you would just tell me that "grading is a subjective process", and I should just swallow my losses. >>
Don't put words in my mouth. I wouldn't tell you jack schitt.
If you are so concerned about NEN's return policies with respect to PCGS no longer guaranteeing their coins, why don't you ask them instead of just making assumptions?
Comments
I'm not talking about a situation where PCGS changes its mind on a grade from, say PR66 to PR65. I am talking about a situation where a coin has environmental damage or has been doctored. In that case, PCGS will put the coin in a Genuine slab. I expect dealers to be able to recognize those coins. I suspect the NEN coin is probably one of those coins.
Here is my analogy. Suppose I go to the supermarket and buy a quart of milk. If the milk smells bad when I open the carton at home, then I expect the supermarket to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. Similarly, if I buy a PCGS graded coin from a dealer, and if PCGS says the coin has environmental damage or has questionable color, I expect the dealer to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. In my opinion, that NEN coin doesn't pass the smell test.
Perhaps, if dealers are held accountable, that accountability could help to flush out some of the bad coins that exist in holders. Greater dealer accountability might also help eliminate coin doctors.
<< <i> There is a huge difference between a dealer standing behind what he sells and providing honest opinions/accurate descriptions, VS. guaranteeing that a grading company wont change its opinion of the coin, if resubmitted, or that others will agree with the grade.
I'm not talking about a situation where PCGS changes its mind on a grade from, say PR66 to PR65. I am talking about a situation where a coin has environmental damage or has been doctored. In that case, PCGS will put the coin in a Genuine slab. I expect dealers to be able to recognize those coins. I suspect the NEN coin is probably one of those coins.
Here is my analogy. Suppose I go to the supermarket and buy a quart of milk. If the milk smells bad when I open the carton at home, then I expect the supermarket to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. Similarly, if I buy a PCGS graded coin from a dealer, and if PCGS says the coin has environmental damage or has questionable color, I expect the dealer to (cheerfully and promptly) return my money. In my opinion, that NEN coin doesn't pass the smell test.
Perhaps, if dealers are held accountable, that accountability could help to flush out some of the bad coins that exist in holders. Greater dealer accountability might also help eliminate coin doctors. >>
You must already know that the determination of whether a coin has been doctored, artificially toned, etc. can be subjective and/or inconsistent. And unless the seller of a certified coin did something to it himself or knows someone who did, there is no good reason why he should have to bear any responsibility to the buyer, if a grading company later renders a different opinion. Why should the subsequent negative opinion be considered any more correct or binding than the initial positive one?
And if the foremost grading companies can't recognize certain doctoring, how/why would you expect the dealers who are selling the coins to be able to? Please explain that?
Your spoiled milk analogy is way off base.
<< <i>Looks like someone blew a big fat sneeze on that poor guy, and the "remnants" caused all that splatter stain. He needs to be sent back to PCGS for regrading. >>
Snneze stuff, ugh!
Copper folks....What are your thoughts on this NEN 1881 PR66BN IHC?? A lot going on here!!!!
I'll try to focus on the question. I don't like the coin and would not purchase it based on the photograph. My preference is for clean proof indians with a lot of luster, especially since they can found in most early 1880s proofs. Splotchy toning and spots turn me off as fast as cheek hits and marks on the nose. Foggy "mirrors" do not a PR66 make
From the picture the coin looks played with to me. It's relatively easy to produce the color pattern seen on the feathers. There appears to be a small hit on the chin and the strike around the top diamond looks weak - but again this is probably a result of the photo.
Even, attractive color, GREAT luster, a clean face, exceptional mirrors, and sublime toning are what attract me to PR IHCs in PR66 or PR67.
<< <i>Would this holder today at PCGS?
NT Color?
What splashed on this poor IHC?
66??
Worth $625?
I must admit, it is a very interesting Gem.
Indian Cent 1881 PCGS PR66BN Colorful proof gem. In a green label PCGS holder. Tied for finest graded (pop of 11/0 at PCGS).
Link >>
It appears NEN pulled the coin. Wished I saved a copy on my hard drive. That was a good move on their part.
Well, there are plenty of other bad coins on their site. I don't collect Lincoln Cents, but I am suspicious of this PCGS MS65RD Lincoln, described as "lustrous, solid, red gem"
<< <i>Well, there are plenty of other bad coins on their site. I don't collect Lincoln Cents, but I am suspicious of this PCGS MS65RD Lincoln, described as "lustrous, solid, red gem" >>
What, so this is now a "Let's bash NEN!" thread?
Why not bash PCGS instead? They're the ones holdering these "bad coins" (your words not mine).
NEN has plenty of gems, but those don't stay on the site long because they sell. So those that tend to languish the longest (and are thus the most visible) will be the marginal or subpar coins.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>What, so this is now a "Let's bash NEN!" thread?
Why not bash PCGS instead? They're the ones holdering these "bad coins" (your words not mine).
Gimme a break. >>
I assume your post is addressed to PLE.
Well, let's see....PCGS won't stand behind its grades, starting January 1.
And, dealers don't think that they should be forced to stand behind the PCGS grades of the coins that they sell.
And, this dealer is a member of PNG, and shows the PNG seal with the words "Knowledge", "Integrity" and "Responsibility" on his web site.
If I bought this coin for $6,250, and it turned out that I couldn't re-sell it as MS65RD, apparently, you would just tell me that "grading is a subjective process", and I should just swallow my losses.
So, I have a couple of questions:
1. In the minds of coin dealers, is the meaning of the words "knowledge", "integrity" and "responsibility" as subjective as the grading process?
2. How many badly graded PCGS red-copper coins do you think that a collector will swallow, before he realizes that he is making a mistake and walk away from this hobby?
<< <i>If I bought this coin for $6,250, and it turned out that I couldn't re-sell it as MS65RD, apparently, you would just tell me that "grading is a subjective process", and I should just swallow my losses. >>
Don't put words in my mouth. I wouldn't tell you jack schitt.
If you are so concerned about NEN's return policies with respect to PCGS no longer guaranteeing their coins, why don't you ask them instead of just making assumptions?
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps