I hate gradeflation, here's an example

oldwestgold · December 8, 2009 12:52PM

Heritage lot 1136 in the coming soon auction......A month ago this coin was in a PCGS MS65 holder, in fact I considered purchasing it for the sellers $640 asking price. But I graded the obverse of the coin as a low end 65, with a slight premium for color, so I thought the asking price was a little too steep. Now it's in an NGC 66* holder. No way this coin is a 66. If you go to heritage you can zoom in and get a really good look. Gradeflation is alive and well......

STONE · December 8, 2009 12:57PM

That's why it's slabbed at NGC now!

The obverse looks 64, reverse 66 or thereabouts.
IMO, it should have been maxed out at PCGS

blu62vette · December 8, 2009 12:59PM

The pics make it look real bad....

Moldnut · December 8, 2009 1:15PM

Opinions are just that, opinions. Look here ANACS 1867 25c VF25 now its in a PCGS VF35 with a bean.

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1125&Lot_No=623&src=pr
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1102&Lot_No=496&src=pr

GoldenEyeNumismatics · December 8, 2009 1:17PM

<< Gradeflation is alive and well......

>>

I disagree. The last couple years have been very tough.

DoubleEagle59 · December 8, 2009 1:19PM

Gradeflation is a term that applies to a gradual slow and steady move of grading standards over a long period of time (years).

This however is just a case of a regrade over and over (probably) until the ms66 grade was reached.

Type2 · December 8, 2009 1:24PM

<< 

<< Gradeflation is alive and well......

>>

I disagree. The last couple years have been very tough. >>

Your telling me. I keep say no more. But this time is it.

astrorat · December 8, 2009 1:28PM

Gradeflation is not relevant when discussing cross-over grades. PCGS and NGC don't use the same standards, thus an accurate comparison cannot be made. PCGS graded the coin 65 and NGC graded it 66. That does not mean that it would bring the same price as an "equivalent" PCGS-66 coin.

Lane

yellowkid · December 8, 2009 1:32PM

<< Heritage lot 1136 in the coming soon auction......A month ago this coin was in a PCGS MS65 holder, in fact I considered purchasing it for the sellers $640 asking price. But I graded the obverse of the coin as a low end 65, with a slight premium for color, so I thought the asking price was a little too steep. Now it's in an NGC 66* holder. No way this coin is a 66. If you go to heritage you can zoom in and get a really good look. Gradeflation is alive and well......

I wonder how you would feel IF you had bought itand submitted it with the resultant grade.

oldwestgold · December 8, 2009 1:32PM

<< Gradeflation is not relevant when discussing cross-over grades. PCGS and NGC don't use the same standards, thus an accurate comparison cannot be made. PCGS graded the coin 65 and NGC graded it 66. That does not mean that it would bring the same price as an "equivalent" PCGS-66 coin.

Lane >>

Good point. Gradeflation was the wrong term. Overgraded was the term I should have used. And you are correct, NGC trades at a discount to PCGS especially in higher grades.

19Lyds · December 8, 2009 1:46PM

<< Heritage lot 1136 in the coming soon auction......A month ago this coin was in a PCGS MS65 holder, in fact I considered purchasing it for the sellers $640 asking price. But I graded the obverse of the coin as a low end 65, with a slight premium for color, so I thought the asking price was a little too steep. Now it's in an NGC 66* holder. No way this coin is a 66. If you go to heritage you can zoom in and get a really good look. Gradeflation is alive and well......

>>

WELL GOSH. I looked all over Heritage but could not find this coin.

You suppose you could supply some links?

As for gradeflation, all I see is upgradeability. Some coins upgrade while other coins do not.

oldwestgold · December 8, 2009 1:50PM

<< 

<< Heritage lot 1136 in the coming soon auction......A month ago this coin was in a PCGS MS65 holder, in fact I considered purchasing it for the sellers $640 asking price. But I graded the obverse of the coin as a low end 65, with a slight premium for color, so I thought the asking price was a little too steep. Now it's in an NGC 66* holder. No way this coin is a 66. If you go to heritage you can zoom in and get a really good look. Gradeflation is alive and well......

>>

WELL GOSH. I looked all over Heritage but could not find this coin.

You suppose you could supply some links?

As for gradeflation, all I see is upgradeability. Some coins upgrade while other coins do not. >>

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?SaleNo=1136&LotIdNo=1305&txtSearch=&hdnSearch=true

speety · December 8, 2009 1:55PM

I don't see it as gradeflation as much as just the fact that many (most?) coins have been traded enough that they are maxxed out in their current holders, or at least we are getting nearer to that point daily.

Keep in mind that we have no clue whether most coins have been tried once or twenty times. Who knows if the coin resided in a MS-64 holder between now and the time it was in the PCGS MS-65 holder... (probably not in this case as you state you almost bought it not too long ago...)

Justacommeman · December 8, 2009 2:06PM

linkage

Justacommeman · December 8, 2009 2:08PM

I bet this coin looks much better in hand then those Heritages photos. Is there a link to when it was in a PCGS 65 holder? TIA, MJ

MikeInFL · December 8, 2009 2:25PM

<< Heritage lot 1136 in the coming soon auction......A month ago this coin was in a PCGS MS65 holder, in fact I considered purchasing it for the sellers $640 asking price. But I graded the obverse of the coin as a low end 65, with a slight premium for color, so I thought the asking price was a little too steep. Now it's in an NGC 66* holder. No way this coin is a 66. If you go to heritage you can zoom in and get a really good look. Gradeflation is alive and well......

>>

With all due respect to the OP, is this gradeflation or is it simply different standards between NCG and PCGS.

Said differently, gradeflation is not TPG transitive.

Said slightly more bluntly, it is no secret that PCGS and NGC grade the 65 and 66 grades differently, and the conclusion put forth by the OP smacks of ignorance of this widely-held observation (and not that ignorance is necessarily bad, mind you, as we are all ignorant to one extent or another).

Respectfully submitted...Mike

EagleEye · December 8, 2009 2:53PM

The funny thing is, that because of the toning it probably came out of a GSA "Circulated" holder.

I don't think you can say it is gradflation, especially when it was, as you say, premium-priced in the 65 holder.

ColonialCoinUnion · December 8, 2009 11:17PM

It isn't 'gradeflation' if it the results were from two different grading services.

sinin1 · December 8, 2009 11:22PM

when it sells

we can see what is worth more a PCGS 65 or a NGC 66*

Gemineye · December 8, 2009 11:28PM

<< It isn't 'gradeflation' if it the results were from two different grading services. >>

...I agree..it ain't even got a sticker...

Walkerguy21D · December 8, 2009 11:34PM

<< Said slightly more bluntly, it is no secret that PCGS and NGC grade the 65 and 66 grades differently, and the conclusion put forth by the OP smacks of ignorance of this widely-held observation >>

I guess I was not aware of this either; I thought that NGC may at times be a little looser than PCGS, depending on the series....so, if a number of PCGS 65 coins were submitted to NGC, a high percentage would upgrade to 66? I'm surprised any still exist in PCGS 65 holders if that's the case, other than a few preserved for registry sets or posterity. This coin looks like one that slipped through the cracks, and/or the grader was mesmerized by the toning and nudged up it.

Barndog · December 8, 2009 11:44PM

gradeflation has made some money for me, which I've ended up putting back into my collection in the form of nice half dimes

coinguy1 · December 8, 2009 11:57PM

<< Gradeflation is a term that applies to a gradual slow and steady move of grading standards over a long period of time (years).

This however is just a case of a regrade over and over (probably) until the ms66 grade was reached. >>

Who says gradeflation must occur slowly and/or steadily over a long period of time?

And regardless of the time frame, it IS often due to "just a case" of a regrade or regrades that result in higher grades.

That said, as has already been stated, such was not the case here, as two different grading companies were involved.

lusterlover · December 8, 2009 11:57PM

<< I guess I was not aware of this either; I thought that NGC may at times be a little looser than PCGS, depending on the series....so, if a number of PCGS 65 coins were submitted to NGC, a high percentage would upgrade to 66? I'm surprised any still exist in PCGS 65 holders if that's the case, other than a few preserved for registry sets or posterity. >>

...because most NGC 66s don't even sell for PCGS 65 money.

coinguy1 · December 9, 2009 12:04AM

<< 

<< I guess I was not aware of this either; I thought that NGC may at times be a little looser than PCGS, depending on the series....so, if a number of PCGS 65 coins were submitted to NGC, a high percentage would upgrade to 66? I'm surprised any still exist in PCGS 65 holders if that's the case, other than a few preserved for registry sets or posterity. >>

...because most NGC 66s don't even sell for PCGS 65 money. >>

Claiming that "most NGC 66s don't even sell for PCGS 65 money" is a gross exaggeration, and frankly, flat out false. There are probably a small percentage of cases where that is true, but certainly no where in the ballpark of "most".

Edited to add:

<< ...Said slightly more bluntly, it is no secret that PCGS and NGC grade the 65 and 66 grades differently, and the conclusion put forth by the OP smacks of ignorance of this widely-held observation (and not that ignorance is necessarily bad, mind you, as we are all ignorant to one extent or another).

Respectfully submitted...Mike >>

Mike, there are countless instances in which the grading is identical. The observed populations and perceived differences are skewed somewhat by the crossover phenomenon, however.

golfer72 · December 9, 2009 12:11AM

Its also an example of how both services tend to overgrade CC Morgans. i would not pay more than 64 money for that coin. Also the star is meaningless.

Amigo · December 9, 2009 12:11AM

I can't speak to this coin. However, a short time ago I just got back 60 morgans I submitted to NGC. My opinion on Morgans are that NGC is not any looser than PCGS. Other series, other times,yes. Generally speaking, NGC slabbed Morgans bring as much as the PCGS plastic. I said generally, not in all cases.
I certainly haven't experienced any gradeinflaition ATS in the last year.

scoobydeux · December 9, 2009 8:38AM

<< Gradeflation is not relevant when discussing cross-over grades. PCGS and NGC don't use the same standards, thus an accurate comparison cannot be made. PCGS graded the coin 65 and NGC graded it 66. That does not mean that it would bring the same price as an "equivalent" PCGS-66 coin. >>

OnlyGoldIsMoney · December 9, 2009 8:44AM

If that coin was graded 66 by PCGS I would be surprised. Since it was graded by NGC I am not.

MrEureka · December 9, 2009 8:51AM

On a side note, it's worth considering the positive side of gradeflation. Think about it. If standards were to loosen one point across the board, all of the coins that were previously graded accurately would be cracked, resubmitted and upgraded. At the same time, all of the coins that were previously overgraded would be left in the old holders, but most would now be considered accurately graded. The end result is that gradeflation helps cleanse the market of overgraded coins. It's actually quite healthy for the market, even if it is unintentional.

fc · December 9, 2009 8:59AM

<< On a side note, it's worth considering the positive side of gradeflation. Think about it. If standards were to loosen one point across the board, all of the coins that were previously graded accurately would be cracked, resubmitted and upgraded. At the same time, all of the coins that were previously overgraded would be left in the old holders, but most would now be considered accurately graded. The end result is that gradeflation helps cleanse the market of overgraded coins. It's actually quite healthy for the market, even if it is unintentional. >>

it seems this idea fails to take into account that the coins that were
"undergraded", cracked out and went one point higher, in time
would simply jump the next point up and you would be in the same
position as before except for the fact previously written standards
for grading coins would no longer make any sense.

COALPORTER · December 9, 2009 9:04AM

<< Gradeflation is not relevant when discussing cross-over grades. PCGS and NGC don't use the same standards, thus an accurate comparison cannot be made. PCGS graded the coin 65 and NGC graded it 66. That does not mean that it would bring the same price as an "equivalent" PCGS-66 coin.

Lane >>

Does it say this anywhere in the NGC or PCGS literature ?
Can you point the where NGC says our grades are one point looser than pcgs' ?

IGWT · December 9, 2009 9:30AM

On a side note, it's worth considering the positive side of gradeflation. Think about it. If standards were to loosen one point across the board, all of the coins that were previously graded accurately would be cracked, resubmitted and upgraded. At the same time, all of the coins that were previously overgraded would be left in the old holders, but most would now be considered accurately graded. The end result is that gradeflation helps cleanse the market of overgraded coins. It's actually quite healthy for the market, even if it is unintentional.

That makes sense. In a Bernie Madoffesque kind of way.

coinkat · December 9, 2009 10:00AM

One coin does not make a case...

Grading is subjective... this coin was examined by 3 graders for a collective time of 30-45 seconds. 2 of the 3 graders liked it enough to grade it the way they did.

I would like to see the coin in hand before being critical. However, why should an in hand review of a coin prevent a good time bashing TPG among friends?

I hate gradeflation, here's an example

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