<< <i>I think the new rule makes perfect sense. I also like that this is being done in a way that does not require any disclaimers to be placed on post-2009 slabs. >>
As a copper collector I am very disappointed in PCGS to hear that you will no longer cover copper color in your guarantee. This seems like you are backing away from the true problem which is that your holders are not 100% airtight. Why not invest in holders that can lock out air therefore preventing humidity from being a factor. I buy PCGS graded coins due to your guarantee and the quality of grading. I know I can trust the grade on the label. PCGS should be the leader in the coin industry and keep the guarantee on copper this action lowers the market value of any copper you grade. Buying copper is now caveat emptor and makes other services such as CAC necessary. I am very disappointed I thought PCGS was better than this.
i'm not certain of how the change will work, but i figure it's a pretty pathetic thing if PCGS does not honor the guarantee of any copper coin graded before this change, regardless of who owns the coin or if it's sold after some specific date. in a way, it's very, very similar to the big debate going on with all the credit card companies and the fact that they change the interest rate on money borrowed at a certain percentage.
I've never seen better evidence of the value of a TPG guarantee.
If one guarantee can be retroactively voided, so can all the others. And, of course, a guarantee that can be voided at the option of the guarantor is no guarantee at all. Or so it seems.
There is a simple solution here, and that is to change the insert on 1-1-10. All coins certified in the new holders would not be gauranteed for color. It would still suck, but pcgs would create a real premium for the older holders while not renegging on a promise already made to thousands of collectors. Alot of talk on these boards centers around integrity. It would be nice to see pcgs do the right thing despite what it costs them. It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i> How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
I'd guess that if you try and submit a claim after 1/1/10, you're going to need proof of purchase information which many of us don't have for every coin we own.
For $15 you can get a guarantee on color for all your Indian cents. It's called Photo Seal. For $10 you can get a guarantee on color for all your copper. It's called CAC.
The lack of consistency in the grading red copper is the reason Photo Seal was started to begin with some 14 years ago.
Anyway, there should be recourse if you get a recently graded coin that turns RB (meaning it was doctored prior to submission), so I think a 1 year guarantee is a real benefit to collectors.
<< <i>I've never seen better evidence of the value of a TPG guarantee.
If one guarantee can be retroactively voided, so can all the others. And, of course, a guarantee that can be voided at the option of the guarantor is no guarantee at all. Or so it seems. >>
If copper coins graded prior to January 1, 2010 (are held by the owners of record as of Dec. 31, 2009 and) are still eligible for the current PCGS guarantee, is that a guarantee which is " retroactively voided"?
<< <i>There is a simple solution here, and that is to change the insert on 1-1-10. All coins certified in the new holders would not be gauranteed for color. It would still suck, but pcgs would create a real premium for the older holders while not renegging on a promise already made to thousands of collectors. Alot of talk on these boards centers around integrity. It would be nice to see pcgs do the right thing despite what it costs them. It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway.
<< <i>There is a simple solution here, and that is to change the insert on 1-1-10. All coins certified in the new holders would not be gauranteed for color. It would still suck, but pcgs would create a real premium for the older holders while not renegging on a promise already made to thousands of collectors. Alot of talk on these boards centers around integrity. It would be nice to see pcgs do the right thing despite what it costs them. It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway. >>
Couldn't the same arguments be made concerning differences of opinion regarding numerical grades of coins as well as color on non-copper coins?
Here is a somewhat funny analogy folks. Some RD's are worth less than a coin that might be a RB or even a BN so why would it matter what the color designation is unless the coin in question is one of a sight unseen and the seller fails to tell you that the coin is RD/RB/BN? Obviously you will know it from a picture if they are so inclined to send you one.
Taking away the guarantee means nothing- I would think that by checking the certification number PCGS can tell when it was slabbed and would honor the guarantee from that point.
As stated if they decide to start a new sequence of numbers on 1/1 or 10/10 then they can still keep the color designation but inform you that due to cert # 0110109999- this coin has no guarantee as to color designation - that would be a consideration in my stupid opinion..
I'm still trying to process what this will mean to me as I assemble my Lincoln collection.
Of course PCGS's reputation and guarantee was a huge factor in my deciding to collect only PCGS graded Lincoln cents but I guess for a small time collector like me the risk is minimal. I bet this makes some heavyweight collectors upset.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway.
Couldn't the same arguments be made concerning differences of opinion regarding numerical grades of coins as well as color on non-copper coins? >>
Yes, of course.
The numerical grades provide a much needed point of reference to "level the playing field" somewhat between dealers and collectors. It provides a baseline for establishing value.
With color, the coin itself provides that baseline. Therefore, PCGS does not need to provide a color designation if they aren't going to guarantee that designation.
If copper coins graded prior to January 1, 2010 (are held by the owners of record as of Dec. 31, 2009 and) are still eligible for the current PCGS guarantee, is that a guarantee which is " retroactively voided"?
Yes. And the answer is obvious when you consider that the guarantee was sold with the promise that it's transferrable (so long as the holder is intact). That was the true value of the guarantee.
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
HRH wrote: "There are about to be a lot of new things coming out of PCGS...in my opinion, monumental things. Some of it we'll charge for, some of it will be free." Link.
I'd like some clarification, please. Is reneging on the RD/RB guarantee one of the changes that will be free of charge?
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
It's not too late to change your mind, PCGS! >>
First off, no offense, but this is the dumbest thing that anyone would want to see. Tell a collector that the coin he has that was graded on XX/XX/XXXX has a life of only 5 years and after said date you have to send it back for a review of the coin to guarantee that it is still what it is? YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY FRIKKIN NUTZO.
I would move my copper to any other TPG in a nano second if PCGS did this- and odds are it would kill the business profile in a heartbeat.
Tell Stewart Blay - he has to send in all his copper every 5 years to be regraded- I'm sure that he would be willing to do this or for that matter everyone who is holding a registry set from 1st thru 20 place in the registries- yeah they will come up with the bucks to regrade their coins.
And if you sell it - the guarantee is null and void( per se)? idiotic..
let them PCGS, come up with their plan, if you are not happy with it- then pull your stock and ship it to another TPG to grade and be done with the house of David. It is his house after all, and we are nothing more than mere players in the big pind of copper colored coins!
<< <i>"...we will not be guaranteeing the color of cooper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010..."
Certainly it seems to hurt no one if they make the change on coins GRADED after 1/1/2010.
I would think a fairer (& simpler) way would be to simply make the guarantee go away for coins graded after that date so that those holding coins thru the date change don't experience a sudden loss of value due to new buyers paying less due to the now absence of the guarantee.
Seems like a part of the coins' (implicit) value already paid for (i.e. the guarantee) is being summarily and unilaterally taken away without recourse, due process, or compensation.
Also seems like monies paid out for copper color issues were just a small(?) percentage of the total and wasn't really a big continuing risk anyway (for previously graded coins). >>
Ok, lawyer on board wants to argue. Here's the facts: You have no "rights", no "recourse", no "due process", no "compensation" when it comes to someone else's business. Next.
Will somebody please explain to me what is the significance that people are placing on who owns the coin? Why shouldnt the color guarantee apply to the same coin with the new owner? And what good is a guarantee anyway when it expires the one time you need it- when it's time to sell???
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Companies go out of business all the time. Warrany and guarantees are gennerally worthless. Curcuit City, Western Auto etc. If you have a problem after they close the doors good luck. Someone will probably be honoring there contracts but they will be slow and a long ways off.
All the changes that have happened around here the last few years i would not classify as improvements.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I guess one could always have their red coppers encased in Lucite (acrylic ). No danger of humidity there. Makes an awesome paper weight, but would be a bit hard to crack out.
< "read that email too and I don't understand how copper can be effected by moisture (humidity) when it's in a sonically sealed slab. How does moisture get into the slab?">
Years ago there was an article in coin world about how all the TPG slabs were not airtight. Coppers will turn in them , and silvers will tone in the right environments. Some TPG slabs are better than others. Thats why intercept shield boxes are made for slabs.
I was told to stuff the spaces around my red copper slabs with dessicants.
Early this year I sold most of my Red Copper and went into Gold.
The 1909 S VDB OGH in 66RD resides in the SDB along with ten dessicant packs.
The dismissal of the guarantee frankly though...sucks. AND you can bet it toned silver was sold at a discount....they would have done something like this ages ago.
Funny, isnt it? Toning increases the value of silver, and lowers the value of copper. go figger. thats one of the reasons I went into gold.
<< <i>But it really doesn't seem that hard to make an airtight slab - why not? >>
Don't know the answer to your question, but it seems to me, if it was easy to make a better slab than the one that exists now, they'd already be doing it.
<< <i>But it really doesn't seem that hard to make an airtight slab - why not? >>
Don't know the answer to your question, but it seems to me, if it was easy to make a better slab than the one that exists now, they'd already be doing it. >>
Off hand I'd say 10 minutes with a soldering iron would do it.
PCGS SHOULD STOP DESIGNATING COINS AS RD OR RB STARTING JAN 1ST AS WELL!
Give me one reason why they should designate a coin as RD if they are not going to stand behind it. Hopefully people don;t purchase pictures of PCGS RD coins from old pictures. These things can turn in the holder. Could be six months later that they turn in the holder. That's why they won't stand behind a RD coin for one year.
Sorry Rick Snow, it's not going to happen because that's exactly what they are scared of.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
I still really like red copper, even after selling my collection. If I were still in the game, I would migrate towards the older slabs and store them carefully. This change in policy would in no way stop me from collecting them. Of the hundred or so red IHC's I've owned, only one went bad and PCGS stepped to the plate.
In addition to dessicants, I used to pack "copper wool" around my boxes - figured if there was anything bad in the air, it would react with that first. There's a lot of copper surface area in one pad - available at Marine stores.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins.
So, I guess that means that I should never buy copper coins from any dealer in Florida. Thanks for the warning, Don!
Don, can you tell us how long a mint red coin needs to be in Florida before it will be forever ruined? Does this type of environmental/humidity damage work just like Florida sunburn? Will a few hours in Florida do it to a mint red coin? To be safe, should all mint red coins be banned from FUN?
Remember, Don said that there's a good chance that environmental factors can alter the color of coins stored in Florida.
<< <i>Taking away the guarantee means nothing- I would think that by checking the certification number PCGS can tell when it was slabbed and would honor the guarantee from that point. >>
I disagree. I think it does mean something. Follow me for a moment....
I own a MS 65 RB large cent in PCGS plastic. I've owned it for a few years now, and purchased it in part because of the PCGS guarantee. Let's say after the new year I want to sell it, but the coin's RB designation is now not guaranteed, and thus the coin doesn't have the "value add" of the PCGS color guarantee along with it. It seems reasonable to believe that the value of the coin has gone down as a result.
Does it mean nothing that my coin's resale value has gone down?
Said slightly differently, if taking away the guarantee means nothing that assumes that it never meant anything to begin with. Because it's probably safe to say at least some of the monies paid out were due to copper turning brown, it certainly did mean something to the people compensated to date.
Or does it really mean nothing?
Curiously yours....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Must be some corporate individual(s) justifying their existence and/or trying to keep their jobs.
Anyways, that is why I keep my coins in an Intercept Shield box.
And I agree with Rick Snow that there should at least be SOME guarantee in case a coin was worked on an turns in the holder. I also agree that pcgs should no longer state RD, RB, and BN if it will no longer stand by it... what's the point?
After reading Chris's comments and re-reading Rick's and thinking about this for a moment....
So does this announcement essentially get PCGS out of detecting dipped copper? After all, if the color turns in a few months (as copper recently dipped frequently does) PCGS can simply fall back on the "no color guarantee".
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>After reading Chris's comments and re-reading Rick's and thinking about this for a moment....
So does this announcement essentially get PCGS out of detecting dipped copper? After all, if the color turns in a few months (as copper recently dipped frequently does) PCGS can simply fall back on the "no color guarantee". >>
In my mind this is the biggest risk to the collector. As to copper already in a pcgs holder you may actually be in a better selling position, put another way coins slabbed before the cutoff date could be sold/treated as the modern day rattler. Ebay will be flooded with statments like "graded when pcgs had a higher standard" etc.
Comments
<< <i>I think the new rule makes perfect sense. I also like that this is being done in a way that does not require any disclaimers to be placed on post-2009 slabs. >>
I was honestly thinking the same thing.
too many changes - they are sounding sooo democratic to me.
Thought Cali was a conservative state..
Don,
As a copper collector I am very disappointed in PCGS to hear that you will no longer cover copper color in your guarantee. This seems like you are backing away from the true problem which is that your holders are not 100% airtight. Why not invest in holders that can lock out air therefore preventing humidity from being a factor. I buy PCGS graded coins due to your guarantee and the quality of grading. I know I can trust the grade on the label. PCGS should be the leader in the coin industry and keep the guarantee on copper this action lowers the market value of any copper you grade. Buying copper is now caveat emptor and makes other services such as CAC necessary. I am very disappointed I thought PCGS was better than this.
it is just wrong.
If one guarantee can be retroactively voided, so can all the others. And, of course, a guarantee that can be voided at the option of the guarantor is no guarantee at all. Or so it seems.
It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i> How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
I'd guess that if you try and submit a claim after 1/1/10, you're going to need proof of purchase information which many of us don't have for every coin we own.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
For $10 you can get a guarantee on color for all your copper. It's called CAC.
The lack of consistency in the grading red copper is the reason Photo Seal was started to begin with some 14 years ago.
Anyway, there should be recourse if you get a recently graded coin that turns RB (meaning it was doctored prior to submission), so I think a 1 year guarantee is a real benefit to collectors.
<< <i>I've never seen better evidence of the value of a TPG guarantee.
If one guarantee can be retroactively voided, so can all the others. And, of course, a guarantee that can be voided at the option of the guarantor is no guarantee at all. Or so it seems. >>
If copper coins graded prior to January 1, 2010 (are held by the owners of record as of Dec. 31, 2009 and) are still eligible for the current PCGS guarantee, is that a guarantee which is " retroactively voided"?
<< <i>There is a simple solution here, and that is to change the insert on 1-1-10. All coins certified in the new holders would not be gauranteed for color. It would still suck, but pcgs would create a real premium for the older holders while not renegging on a promise already made to thousands of collectors. Alot of talk on these boards centers around integrity. It would be nice to see pcgs do the right thing despite what it costs them.
It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a simple solution here, and that is to change the insert on 1-1-10. All coins certified in the new holders would not be gauranteed for color. It would still suck, but pcgs would create a real premium for the older holders while not renegging on a promise already made to thousands of collectors. Alot of talk on these boards centers around integrity. It would be nice to see pcgs do the right thing despite what it costs them.
It doesnt make sense for the gaurantee to end for these old coins once they're sold. How in the world would they know when the coin was purchased, check our receipts? >>
This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway. >>
Couldn't the same arguments be made concerning differences of opinion regarding numerical grades of coins as well as color on non-copper coins?
Taking away the guarantee means nothing- I would think that by checking the certification number PCGS can tell when it was slabbed and would honor the guarantee from that point.
As stated if they decide to start a new sequence of numbers on 1/1 or 10/10 then they can still keep the color designation but inform you that due to cert # 0110109999- this coin has no guarantee as to color designation - that would be a consideration in my stupid opinion..
Many have been asking for this for a long time.
Of course PCGS's reputation and guarantee was a huge factor in my deciding to collect only PCGS graded Lincoln cents but I guess for a small time collector like me the risk is minimal.
I bet this makes some heavyweight collectors upset.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>This is disappointing but not surprising news.
But I like DCW's suggestion...and I also like Bochiman's suggestion that PCGS stop designating the color of copper on it's slabs starting 1-1-10. After all, color is just another subjective part of the overall eye appeal of the coin. The buyer and seller determine the actual price of a copper coin based on their own opinion of its color anyway.
Couldn't the same arguments be made concerning differences of opinion regarding numerical grades of coins as well as color on non-copper coins? >>
Yes, of course.
The numerical grades provide a much needed point of reference to "level the playing field" somewhat between dealers and collectors. It provides a baseline for establishing value.
With color, the coin itself provides that baseline. Therefore, PCGS does not need to provide a color designation if they aren't going to guarantee that designation.
Yes. And the answer is obvious when you consider that the guarantee was sold with the promise that it's transferrable (so long as the holder is intact). That was the true value of the guarantee.
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
It's not too late to change your mind, PCGS!
I'd like some clarification, please. Is reneging on the RD/RB guarantee one of the changes that will be free of charge?
<< <i>Here is what PCGS should've done:
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
It's not too late to change your mind, PCGS! >>
First off, no offense, but this is the dumbest thing that anyone would want to see. Tell a collector that the coin he has that was graded on XX/XX/XXXX has a life of only 5 years and after said date you have to send it back for a review of the coin to guarantee that it is still what it is? YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY FRIKKIN NUTZO.
I would move my copper to any other TPG in a nano second if PCGS did this- and odds are it would kill the business profile in a heartbeat.
Tell Stewart Blay - he has to send in all his copper every 5 years to be regraded- I'm sure that he would be willing to do this or for that matter everyone who is holding a registry set from 1st thru 20 place in the registries- yeah they will come up with the bucks to regrade their coins.
And if you sell it - the guarantee is null and void( per se)? idiotic..
let them PCGS, come up with their plan, if you are not happy with it- then pull your stock and ship it to another TPG to grade and be done with the house of David. It is his house after all, and we are nothing more than mere players in the big pind of copper colored coins!
Are there any logical people here????
<< <i>"...we will not be guaranteeing the color of cooper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010..."
Certainly it seems to hurt no one if they make the change on coins GRADED after 1/1/2010.
I would think a fairer (& simpler) way would be to simply make the guarantee go away for coins graded after that date so that those holding coins thru the date change don't experience a sudden loss of value due to new buyers paying less due to the now absence of the guarantee.
Seems like a part of the coins' (implicit) value already paid for (i.e. the guarantee) is being summarily and unilaterally taken away without recourse, due process, or compensation.
Also seems like monies paid out for copper color issues were just a small(?) percentage of the total and wasn't really a big continuing risk anyway (for previously graded coins).
Ok, lawyer on board wants to argue. Here's the facts: You have no "rights", no "recourse", no "due process", no "compensation" when it comes to someone else's business. Next.
Free Trial
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
prior to 1917. However it must be the same owner,
the numbers on the slab must end in a prime number
the date on the coin must end in a fibronacci number and
your claim must be postmarked on the 4th Monday in
a month. Further, the company must be in the mood
and feel like being magnanimous in each specific case.
Camelot
https://www.smallcopperguy.com
All the changes that have happened around here the last few years i would not classify as improvements.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
< "read that email too and I don't understand how copper can be effected by moisture (humidity)
when it's in a sonically sealed slab. How does moisture get into the slab?">
Years ago there was an article in coin world about how all the TPG slabs were not airtight.
Coppers will turn in them , and silvers will tone in the right environments. Some TPG slabs are better than others.
Thats why intercept shield boxes are made for slabs.
Krueger
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
Early this year I sold most of my Red Copper and went into Gold.
The 1909 S VDB OGH in 66RD resides in the SDB along with ten dessicant packs.
The dismissal of the guarantee frankly though...sucks. AND you can bet it toned silver was sold at a discount....they would have done something like this ages ago.
Funny, isnt it? Toning increases the value of silver, and lowers the value of copper. go figger. thats one of the reasons I went into gold.
<< <i>But it really doesn't seem that hard to make an airtight slab - why not?
Don't know the answer to your question, but it seems to me, if it was easy to make a better slab than the one that exists now, they'd already be doing it.
<< <i>
<< <i>But it really doesn't seem that hard to make an airtight slab - why not?
Don't know the answer to your question, but it seems to me, if it was easy to make a better slab than the one that exists now, they'd already be doing it. >>
Off hand I'd say 10 minutes with a soldering iron would do it.
Give me one reason why they should designate a coin as RD if they are not going to stand behind it. Hopefully people don;t purchase pictures of PCGS RD coins from old pictures. These things can turn in the holder. Could be six months later that they turn in the holder. That's why they won't stand behind a RD coin for one year.
Sorry Rick Snow, it's not going to happen because that's exactly what they are scared of.
<< <i>Off hand I'd say 10 minutes with a soldering iron would do it. >>
How much more do you think you'd have to pay if it took 10 minutes to seal every slab?
My sigline was here before the email was sent out, although I'm no clairvoyant.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Do you have a buy back guarantee too?
I still really like red copper, even after selling my collection. If I were still in the game, I would migrate towards the older slabs and store them carefully. This change in policy would in no way stop me from collecting them. Of the hundred or so red IHC's I've owned, only one went bad and PCGS stepped to the plate.
In addition to dessicants, I used to pack "copper wool" around my boxes - figured if there was anything bad in the air, it would react with that first. There's a lot of copper surface area in one pad - available at Marine stores.
<< <i>PCGS SHOULD STOP DESIGNATING COINS AS RD OR RB STARTING JAN 1ST AS WELL!
Give me one reason why they should designate a coin as RD if they are not going to stand behind it. >>
Because NGC does?
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS SHOULD STOP DESIGNATING COINS AS RD OR RB STARTING JAN 1ST AS WELL!
Give me one reason why they should designate a coin as RD if they are not going to stand behind it. >>
Because NGC does?
Lance. >>
NGC also stands behind their color designations for 10 years. But now that PCGS has dropped their guarantee, wonder if NGC will eventually follow?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins.
So, I guess that means that I should never buy copper coins from any dealer in Florida. Thanks for the warning, Don!
Don, can you tell us how long a mint red coin needs to be in Florida before it will be forever ruined? Does this type of environmental/humidity damage work just like Florida sunburn? Will a few hours in Florida do it to a mint red coin? To be safe, should all mint red coins be banned from FUN?
Remember, Don said that there's a good chance that environmental factors can alter the color of coins stored in Florida.
<< <i>Taking away the guarantee means nothing- I would think that by checking the certification number PCGS can tell when it was slabbed and would honor the guarantee from that point. >>
I disagree. I think it does mean something. Follow me for a moment....
I own a MS 65 RB large cent in PCGS plastic. I've owned it for a few years now, and purchased it in part because of the PCGS guarantee. Let's say after the new year I want to sell it, but the coin's RB designation is now not guaranteed, and thus the coin doesn't have the "value add" of the PCGS color guarantee along with it. It seems reasonable to believe that the value of the coin has gone down as a result.
Does it mean nothing that my coin's resale value has gone down?
Said slightly differently, if taking away the guarantee means nothing that assumes that it never meant anything to begin with. Because it's probably safe to say at least some of the monies paid out were due to copper turning brown, it certainly did mean something to the people compensated to date.
Or does it really mean nothing?
Curiously yours....Mike
Must be some corporate individual(s) justifying their existence and/or trying to keep their jobs.
Anyways, that is why I keep my coins in an Intercept Shield box.
And I agree with Rick Snow that there should at least be SOME guarantee in case a coin was worked on an turns in the holder.
I also agree that pcgs should no longer state RD, RB, and BN if it will no longer stand by it... what's the point?
So does this announcement essentially get PCGS out of detecting dipped copper? After all, if the color turns in a few months (as copper recently dipped frequently does) PCGS can simply fall back on the "no color guarantee".
<< <i>After reading Chris's comments and re-reading Rick's and thinking about this for a moment....
So does this announcement essentially get PCGS out of detecting dipped copper? After all, if the color turns in a few months (as copper recently dipped frequently does) PCGS can simply fall back on the "no color guarantee". >>
In my mind this is the biggest risk to the collector. As to copper already in a pcgs holder you may actually be in a better selling position, put another way coins slabbed before the cutoff date could be sold/treated as the modern day rattler. Ebay will be flooded with statments like "graded when pcgs had a higher standard" etc.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Empty Nest Collection