Great stuff in those two installments by Greg Reynolds. Needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments and opinions expressed by my fellow collectors Mark Hagen, Stewart Blay, Steve Duckor, Dale Friend and the exceedingly handsome Jay Brahin. That group exemplifies my approach to collecting perfectly.
I have greatly enjoyed building sets of coins with beautiful natural surfaces. One finds that such coins have a great deal more personality and history, and certainly more visual interest, than generic dipped white coins.
<< <i>I have greatly enjoyed building sets of coins with beautiful natural surfaces. One finds that such coins have a great deal more personality and history, and certainly more visual interest, than generic dipped white coins. >>
This is a wonderful statement. Perhaps, you should have been interviewed as well?
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
Pittman certainly kept many of his coins in paper envelopes, but he wasn't a chemical engineer just because he liked working for Kodak. I witnessed singles of his collection as they were being unwrapped from lead foil. And I have heard the accounts of his proficiency with arsenic compounds.
<< <i>Pittman certainly kept many of his coins in paper envelopes, but he wasn't a chemical engineer just because he liked working for Kodak. I witnessed singles of his collection as they were being unwrapped from lead foil. And I have heard the accounts of his proficiency with arsenic compounds. >>
Pittman was not unfamiliar with the chemistry of coins. That said he left the vast majority of his coin untouched.
WOW!! Interesting article in Coin world 7 Dec issue on page 46.
About the dipping of an MS67 1893-S morgan dollar orginally toned and sold from the Norweb collection. noted as the finest known. Now up for resale bright white, but here were no takers!!
Only one other known in that grade sold for 1 million dollars.
<< <i>WOW!! Interesting article in Dec 7 issue on page 46.
About the dipping of an MS67 1893-S morgan dollar orginally toned and sold from the Norweb collection. noted as the finest known. Now up for resale bright white, but here were no takers!!
Only one other known in that grade sold for 1 million dollars. >>
More than one year ago, there was a detailed article on CoinLink which discusses both 1893-S dollars that have been certified as “67.” The fate of the Norweb coin is covered therein. The Norweb coin WAS the finest known, and the Vermuele 1893-S now is the finest known. There is an accidental misrepresentation about this article in the print B&M catalogue. It was corrected, and there is fair mention of the CoinLink article in the B&M online catalogue. Is there anyone who has seen the coin that wishes to comment?
Keep in mind that the main thrust here isn't to criticize those who don't have all age-old, wonderfully toned coins. There are thousands of very nice coins that haven't been messed with that aren't toned and yet are still fabulous collectable. In a perfect world who wouldn't want all antiqued, original coins, but that's just near impossible to do. Just stayvaway from stained, overt whit silver, "jewelry shine" gold and copper with pits or more green or black that your we can handle. It's tough when oxygen us your enemy!
Keep looking for those magnificent pieces. The knowledge will make you a better collector.
If I knew 1/10th of what Mark, Jay, Larry, Stew or TDN know from their experience, I would consider myself one very lucky person!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
It kills you that I'm getting more handsome as I get older!
Greg did a magnificent job on this series. he really dug into the real facts and dispelled some myths. Sometimes the "best looking" coin is not the best coin! Less informed people have been duped for years into believing that shiny coins were better coins.
As one addendum, I for one am in the "STOP BASHING COPPER ON GOLD" camp. I have said this so many times, but copper spotting is wonderful as an original characteristic of a coin. You can always remove it but you can never resore it. Again, if I were ooffered two 1922-S MS65 Saints, one with copper spots and one without (both being equal in technicals) I would undoubtedly pick the copper one.
Good job Greg. No more pics of me! This board's latent homosexuality is getting tweaked and I'm not opening PM's anymore.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>"The harmful effects of mechanically or chemically altering a coin's surface may not be detected until some time after the coin is certified and encapsulated. For example, there is a 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar which once sold along the Jascha Heifetz collection (Superior Galleries auction of 10/1989, lot #3815). I sold this coin to Mark {} in the late 1990s while I was working at Rarcoa. This coin was stunning, a simply beautiful Flowing Hair Dollar. Both PCGS and NGC had graded it MS-64 due to a few long, shallow marks in the lower right obverse field. {A senior official} at NGC personally reviewed this coin at Rarcoa's request, yet still would grade it no more than MS-64.
Sometime after I sold this coin to Mark {last name deleted here by Analyst}, I saw it again, although now with a dulling film applied to camouflage the obverse marks, and sporting a new MS-65 grade from NGC. How could the graders at NGC change their minds on such a memorable coin after the coin was doctored? How could a doctored coin grade NGC MS-65 while it was adamantly no more than a MS-64 in its original state? I've seen this coin again several times over the intervening years, most recently {in a} November 2009 auction in Baltimore. Unfortunately, it continues to get darker and more opaque, and the beautiful near gem from the Heifetz sale is now forever lost.” . >>
-- Curly brackets relate to names mentioned by Joe that are omitted here, as these are besides the main points.
Joe O’Connor’s example raises many unanswered questions?
After it was upgraded from 64 to 65, did this coin remain in the same NGC holder during the decade or so that followed? Could someone, besides Mark, have cracked it out at some point, or points, in time along the way and artificially toned it?
Roughly, how much time elapsed between the day that you “sold this coin to Mark” and the instance in which you next saw the coin? Did weeks, months, or years go by? Did Mark own it when you saw it the next time?
Besides this three part series, is there any other published material that addresses, in depth, the merits of natural toning and problems relating to coin doctoring?
Comments
I have greatly enjoyed building sets of coins with beautiful natural surfaces. One finds that such coins have a great deal more personality and history, and certainly more visual interest, than generic dipped white coins.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I have greatly enjoyed building sets of coins with beautiful natural surfaces. One finds that such coins have a great deal more personality and history, and certainly more visual interest, than generic dipped white coins. >>
This is a wonderful statement. Perhaps, you should have been interviewed as well?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Pittman certainly kept many of his coins in paper envelopes, but he wasn't a chemical engineer just because he liked working for Kodak. I witnessed singles of his collection as they were being unwrapped from lead foil. And I have heard the accounts of his proficiency with arsenic compounds. >>
Pittman was not unfamiliar with the chemistry of coins. That said he left the vast majority of his coin untouched.
WOW!! Interesting article in Coin world 7 Dec issue on page 46.
About the dipping of an MS67 1893-S morgan dollar orginally toned and sold from the Norweb collection.
noted as the finest known.
Now up for resale bright white, but here were no takers!!
Only one other known in that grade sold for 1 million dollars.
I hope they diluted their dipping solution!
Krueger
<< <i>WOW!! Interesting article in Dec 7 issue on page 46.
About the dipping of an MS67 1893-S morgan dollar orginally toned and sold from the Norweb collection.
noted as the finest known. Now up for resale bright white, but here were no takers!!
Only one other known in that grade sold for 1 million dollars. >>
More than one year ago, there was a detailed article on CoinLink which discusses both 1893-S dollars that have been certified as “67.” The fate of the Norweb coin is covered therein. The Norweb coin WAS the finest known, and the Vermuele 1893-S now is the finest known. There is an accidental misrepresentation about this article in the print B&M catalogue. It was corrected, and there is fair mention of the CoinLink article in the B&M online catalogue. Is there anyone who has seen the coin that wishes to comment?
1893-S dollar sells for more than $1 million
Keep looking for those magnificent pieces. The knowledge will make you a better collector.
Who is John Galt?
Greg did a magnificent job on this series. he really dug into the real facts and dispelled some myths. Sometimes the "best looking" coin is not the best coin! Less informed people have been duped for years into believing that shiny coins were better coins.
As one addendum, I for one am in the "STOP BASHING COPPER ON GOLD" camp. I have said this so many times, but copper spotting is wonderful as an original characteristic of a coin. You can always remove it but you can never resore it. Again, if I were ooffered two 1922-S MS65 Saints, one with copper spots and one without (both being equal in technicals) I would undoubtedly pick the copper one.
Good job Greg. No more pics of me! This board's latent homosexuality is getting tweaked and I'm not opening PM's anymore.
<< <i>Part 3 of the series is here: >>
A really worthwhile, interesting series of articles by Greg Reynolds, BTW.
Coin Rarities Online
I enjoyed it....................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>"The harmful effects of mechanically or chemically altering a coin's surface may not be detected until some time after the coin is certified and encapsulated. For example, there is a 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar which once sold along the Jascha Heifetz collection (Superior Galleries auction of 10/1989, lot #3815). I sold this coin to Mark {} in the late 1990s while I was working at Rarcoa. This coin was stunning, a simply beautiful Flowing Hair Dollar. Both PCGS and NGC had graded it MS-64 due to a few long, shallow marks in the lower right obverse field. {A senior official} at NGC personally reviewed this coin at Rarcoa's request, yet still would grade it no more than MS-64.
Sometime after I sold this coin to Mark {last name deleted here by Analyst}, I saw it again, although now with a dulling film applied to camouflage the obverse marks, and sporting a new MS-65 grade from NGC. How could the graders at NGC change their minds on such a memorable coin after the coin was doctored? How could a doctored coin grade NGC MS-65 while it was adamantly no more than a MS-64 in its original state? I've seen this coin again several times over the intervening years, most recently {in a} November 2009 auction in Baltimore. Unfortunately, it continues to get darker and more opaque, and the beautiful near gem from the Heifetz sale is now forever lost.” . >>
-- Curly brackets relate to names mentioned by Joe that are omitted here, as these are besides the main points.
Joe O’Connor’s example raises many unanswered questions?
After it was upgraded from 64 to 65, did this coin remain in the same NGC holder during the decade or so that followed? Could someone, besides Mark, have cracked it out at some point, or points, in time along the way and artificially toned it?
Roughly, how much time elapsed between the day that you “sold this coin to Mark” and the instance in which you next saw the coin? Did weeks, months, or years go by? Did Mark own it when you saw it the next time?
Besides this three part series, is there any other published material that addresses, in depth, the merits of natural toning and problems relating to coin doctoring?
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3