Another....Real or Fake?.....Gold $1

Crazy4Coins · November 27, 2009 9:43AM

Since the other Gold $1 that I posted seems to be a fake....what about this one? A few things to point out about this coin, there is a pretty decent size die break on the neck trunk extending toward the rim, die clashing can be seen on both obverse and reverse and there is some pretty strong doubling on the obverse (back of headdress) and what looks like tripling along the top(of headdress).

DennisH · November 27, 2009 9:45AM

Looks just as suspicious the last one.

Manorcourtman · November 27, 2009 9:49AM

<< Looks just as suspicious the last one. >>

JupitarCoins · November 27, 2009 9:49AM

<< Looks just as suspicious the last one. >>

What do you mean?

zeebob · November 27, 2009 9:51AM

The surface looks all bumpy. Is that what people call "orange peel" gold?

edited to add: Is this coin possibly cast or struck with cast dies?

Baley · November 27, 2009 9:53AM

Sorry buddy, that looks fake, too.

cheezhed · November 27, 2009 9:55AM

Does not appear genuine.

TomB · November 27, 2009 9:57AM

Looks counterfeit and like a sand casting.

ambro51 · November 27, 2009 9:58AM

Wow I know how your feel there....

But, that ones a counterfeit also. 1868 gold dollars were heavily counterfeited. sorry.

ponderit · November 27, 2009 9:59AM

<< Looks counterfeit and like a sand casting. >>

Crazy4Coins · November 27, 2009 10:05AM

Any thoughts on the metal composition of these coins? Sure looks like gold...

ambro51 · November 27, 2009 10:06AM

Take a good look at this one......and note the differences between a genuine and the one you had posted. Look at the fields, the breaks from the lettering and bust, and the dentils. The GOOD news is that your two coins are very possibly genuine gold, and worth at least $25-$35 today

It CAN be difficult to understand gold dollars. Take this 1859 C for instance (NGC AU53) It is 100% genuine but in many ways looks like its something that is a bad fake. Buy your gold dollars in PLASTIC. Its the only wise thing to do.

nankraut · November 27, 2009 10:08AM

<< Looks counterfeit and like a sand casting. >>

Probably Lebanon or China.

Crazy4Coins · November 27, 2009 10:36AM

So, what created the clash marks, doubling and die breaks? Was a cast made from a coin or die that had the attributes?

AUandAG · November 27, 2009 10:40AM

I would wonder it's weight and diameter.

Detail is mushy. That can be accounted for by die use. When it's a die issue you'll typically find that
the detail is removed equally across the whole coin (worn or polished away). Not in this case. Look
at the reverse the DOLLAR and DATE is sharp but the ribbon bow has no detail and the wreath is so
weak in it's detail. Liberty is non existent as is the detail in the tops of the feathered headband. There
are numerous flaws that would not be seen even on clashed dies. Raised bumps or fields here and
there are not from rusted dies. I'd say it is not real.
bob

tightbudget · November 27, 2009 10:41AM

Fake

derryb · November 27, 2009 10:47AM

<< Any thoughts on the metal composition of these coins? Sure looks like gold... >>

Not uncommon for these fakes to be cast with real gold.

Type2 · November 27, 2009 10:50AM

Lets see?

darktone · November 27, 2009 11:13AM

The good thing about counterfiet $1 gold is that most are very crudely made such as this one and are very easy to spot. In person the color is a dead give away as well.

ambro51 · November 27, 2009 11:19AM

Not exactly true Darktone....a good example are counterfeit 1874's. During that year....the dies at the Mint were overused...and very VERY few coins have anything approaching normal luster. The Counterfeits, on the other hand, are sparkleing examples that look "too good". Not unlike the first one the OP put up, the 1854. But, you are right about the color.

Only two really safe ways to buy gold dollars....either in TPG plastic or raw in grades XF and lower.

darktone · November 27, 2009 11:56AM

<< Not exactly true Darktone....a good example are counterfeit 1874's. During that year....the dies at the Mint were overused...and very VERY few coins have anything approaching normal luster. The Counterfeits, on the other hand, are sparkleing examples that look "too good". Not unlike the first one the OP put up, the 1854. But, you are right about the color.

Only two really safe ways to buy gold dollars....either in TPG plastic or raw in grades XF and lower. >>

I did not say all- I said most.

Longacre · November 27, 2009 12:42PM

Fake, no sticker.

coinguy1 · November 27, 2009 12:53PM

While the coin looks off/odd/suspicious, I do not recall having seen a counterfeit gold coin with die clashing. So I vote genuine.

CoinRaritiesOnline · November 27, 2009 9:14PM

While I hate to disagree with coinguy1, I am certain it is counterfeit.

darktone · November 27, 2009 10:42PM

<< While the coin looks off/odd/suspicious, I do not recall having seen a counterfeit gold coin with die clashing. So I vote genuine. >>

Wow! Mark Feld calling this coin genuine has about the same affect on me as the band Sweet singing Little Willy - both are things I hope to never hear again.

coinguy1 · November 27, 2009 11:12PM

<< 

<< While the coin looks off/odd/suspicious, I do not recall having seen a counterfeit gold coin with die clashing. So I vote genuine. >>

Wow! Mark Feld calling this coin genuine has about the same affect on me as the band Sweet singing Little Willy - both are things I hope to never hear again.

>>

That's quite a "wow"

I agree with others that the coin looks bad. But I am guessing otherwise, due solely to the clashed dies.

Edited to add: I admit to being confused here - maybe I was thinking I had not seen a counterfeit gold coin with copper spots, as opposed to clashed dies.

ambro51 · November 27, 2009 11:16PM

While it does appear that 'some' sections of the die clashing often seen are visible most of the usual transfer of the portrait outline to the reverse open fields are not. To me this suggest that the copy has retained a trace of the clashing from the host coin, nothing more than that. Using my iPhone and zooming in on the OP photo... The lack of detail and crispness, together with the abundance of pitting and raised lumps and unusual raised lines here and there really does not suggest any reason to suspect this item was made by the Philadelphia mint. Add to that the fact that Fivaz and QDB both state that the 1868 is the most counterfeited date gold dollar. Perhaps Mr. Feld imbibed a glass or two too many of Harveys Bristol Cream after an excellent Thanksgiving feast.

coinguy1 · November 27, 2009 11:28PM

<< While it does appear that 'some' sections of the die clashing often seen are visible most of the usual transfer of the portrait outline to the reverse open fields are not. To me this suggest that the copy has retained a trace of the clashing from the host coin, nothing more than that. Using my iPhone and zooming in on the OP photo... The lack of detail and crispness, together with the abundance of pitting and raised lumps and unusual raised lines here and there really does not suggest any reason to suspect this item was made by the Philadelphia mint. Add to that the fact that Fivaz and QDB both state that the 1868 is the most counterfeited date gold dollar. Perhaps Mr. Feld imbibed a glass or two too many of Harveys Bristol Cream after an excellent Thanksgiving feast. >>

That was an excellent analysis...up until the last sentence... unless you were to substitute "coffee" and/or "iced tea" and/or"diet coke" for "Bristol Cream".

Halfhunter06 · November 27, 2009 11:58PM

looks like a fake to me, the details are very soft all over

ambro51 · November 28, 2009 12:00AM

ambro51 · November 28, 2009 12:25AM

To those of you who have followed my postings about the gold dollar series....again I must reinforce the idea that all these coins are Rare. While we can speak in terms of surviving populations in the hundreds of thousands for some coins such as specific dates of Morgan dollars, many gold dollars only exist in surviving populations in the hundreds.

Such is the case for the 1868. Original mintage was 10,500, and the date 1868 falls within the intermediate date period of gold dollars (1863-1872) when these coins did not widly circulate. Given attrition over the years, together with the federal gold recall of 1934, the survival rate of genuine coins is rather small. QDB estimates MS survivors at 100 to 140, and circulated coins (most EF to AU) at 250 to 450.

He notes "Striking is often sharp, but some specimens show lightness at the higher parts. The luster on high grade pieces tends to be somewhat satiny, sometimes greasy, rather than deeply frosty. The Clashed Dies problems, endemic among earlier dollars of the decade, seems to have abated in 1868. Most high grade coins show die striations from the die finish process" (I add...these striations are seen as parallel series of raised very fine lines, which are broken by the lettering and portrait)

Though QDB does not really stress the existence of counterfeit gold dollars in general, in his book, he does make special note of them in the 1868 coverage:

"Counterfeits; This gold dollar date has been widley counterfeited. Thousands of fake 1868 dollars were distributed in Europe as early as the 1950's and 1960's. Time was when European banks, curio shops, and even coin dealers (not the better known ones, however), if they had an American gold dollar or two, were apt to have fakes dated 1868. Authentication or certification is mandatory if you are not knowledgeable. Most fakes trade outside of nuimismatic circles, including at antique shows, on the internet etc, where people with very little knowledge jump at the chance bo buy bargains. Your best protection is to buy examples certified by the leading services."

So we see that out of a total GENUINE survivor population of 350 to 590 pieces....there are "Thousands" of fakes that were made during the 50's and 60's. By far then, the overall number of 1868 dated gold dollars will be counterfeit. Add to this the fact that today, MOST of the genuine coins reside within TPG plastic....and the numbers tilt even further in regards to the ratio of genuine vs. Fake 1868 gold dollars, when you see a RAW coin.

Crazy4Coins · November 28, 2009 12:26AM

Take a look at the reverse......around 1:00 next to rim....notice what appears to be a chip out of the surface, like maybe lamination?

I'll also mention there is quite a bit of clashing that can't be seen in the image.....mostly on the reverse. Centered above the A R, there is a clash from the arch of Liberty's hair/neck. The clash runs right down to the edge of R. Also left of the date and slightly lower, clash can be seen from the bridge of Liberty's nose/forehead. It is hard to tell, but it also looks like maybe some of the letters(UNITED) can be seen left of the wreath.

Directly left of the date, centered on top of the wreath, there is a very thin die crack. Its hard to believe something so minute could be transferred from a copy. Did counterfeiters create working dies that eventually deteriorated?

Thanks for all the help.

ambro51 · November 28, 2009 12:49AM

Randy, I know its hard to accept such things. When I had a situation not unlike this...I sent to the item to ANACS, and yes, it was "not genuine". Perhaps thats the best thing you can do, it will set your mind at ease.

While I dont yet have an 1868 in my collection, I can tell you that none of my genuine coins look at all like yours. Here is an image from Heritage auction archives, to let you know exactly what you SHOULD see on a genuine example. Study this carefully, and you'll see why most here feel your item is not genuine. I will add that Walter Breen in his 1964 monograph states "only one die variety seen", so there are not "other looks" that can present themselves for this year. Study in particular the feather tops, and the hair detail toward the back of the hair. Your item shows a double border, while the authentic coin does not.

liefgold · November 28, 2009 1:13AM

Here is mine to compare to:

I believe it is a fake.

eggbone · November 28, 2009 1:28AM

I hope you did not buy it!

BloodMan · November 28, 2009 6:12AM

Liefgold—Nice looking 1868 $1

The lack of detail in the OP’s coin is evident in comparison

CaptHenway · November 28, 2009 7:19AM

Die struck counterfeit, probably from Beirut, probably good gold.
No question as to it being counterfeit.
TD

liefgold · November 28, 2009 7:21AM

Thanks BloodMan, your right the OP's coin is likely a fake. I have collected these for many years and learned this lesson the hard way early on... BUY THEM SLABBED.

Another....Real or Fake?.....Gold $1

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