Seller trying to defraud me on a bogus 1909-S coin
rbf
Posts: 452 ✭✭
Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400084219990
This was a partial set of Lincoln cents that was *supposed* to contain a 1909-S, and this is what I got:
As you can see, the date is obliterated, and there's a "V.D.B." on Lincolns shoulder, so obviously it can't be a 1909-S.
Here's our dialogue thus far:
First Message:
<< <i>Hi, I received this set from you yesterday, but unfortunately there is a significant problem. In my opinion, the coin in the "1909-S" slot is definitely NOT a 1909-S at all. Under magnification, the initials "V.D.B." can clearly be seen on Lincoln's shoulder - a design feature which wasn't introduced until the year 1918, when the V.D.B. initials were restored to the obverse. However due to the extensive amount of wear, the actual date cannot be properly identified, so the coin in question has little or no numismatic premium. Unfortunately, almost my entire bid was based upon the value of the 1909-S, having assumed--based on your description--that it was a legitimate coin, which turned out not to be the case. Please advise what would be the best way to resolve this issue. Thanks for your understanding, Rick >>
His Response:
<< <i>Rick --- Please do us both a favor. I know what that coin looked like. I went to lengths to take another look at it when I answered questions of another person, with lots of disclosures, and an offer for specific photos to anybody who provided an email address several days before you bid, and in fact, you sniped at the last seconds, and asked for nothing then. You make a valid point, and it is indisputable that the significant value in the lot is the described 1909-S. I assume that you can provide your "extreme mag" photo to establish that the description of "190 is visible, as is the s, but the last digit is obscrubed by tarnish" was incorrect. If the first three digits are in fact 190, then the supplementary info in the listing will carry the day. If not, then I will agree that we have an issue to discuss farther. I'll need to take a further look at our additional photos also. >>
My Reply:
<< <i>Actually, the third digit much more closely resembles a "1" than a "0", so yes; it is my contention that your description of "190 is visible..." is a fallacy. More importantly, however, is the fact that the initials "V.D.B." appear on Lincoln’s shoulder. To anyone who is knowledgeable in numismatics and the minting process, it is an irrefutable fact that this coin could NOT possibly have been made in the year 1909, regardless of whether the partially-obliterated third digit in the date "kinda sorta" looks like a "0" to you or anyone else. The only way it would be possible for coin to bear the year 1909 AND have a "V.D.B." initials on the obverse would be if the coin were to have been deliberately altered, in which case such misrepresentation would be a clear violation of eBay policy. >>
<< <i>Furthermore, the fact that I bid on the coin in the last minute is irrelevant. Your listing explicitly states that a 1909-S Lincoln cent was to be included in this set. However, this set unquestionably does NOT contain any 1909-S coin whatsoever. Again, eBay policy forbids the misrepresentation of any item, regardless of whether it was intentional or otherwise. At the very least, you either owe me a genuine 1909-S Lincoln Cent, or full compensation for the missing item. >>
I included the above photos in my reply, but as you can imagine I am less-than-optimistic that this will be resolved peacefully. Judging by this guy's first response, it seems pretty obvious he'd rather play hardball with me than take responsibility for his mistake.
This was a partial set of Lincoln cents that was *supposed* to contain a 1909-S, and this is what I got:
As you can see, the date is obliterated, and there's a "V.D.B." on Lincolns shoulder, so obviously it can't be a 1909-S.
Here's our dialogue thus far:
First Message:
<< <i>Hi, I received this set from you yesterday, but unfortunately there is a significant problem. In my opinion, the coin in the "1909-S" slot is definitely NOT a 1909-S at all. Under magnification, the initials "V.D.B." can clearly be seen on Lincoln's shoulder - a design feature which wasn't introduced until the year 1918, when the V.D.B. initials were restored to the obverse. However due to the extensive amount of wear, the actual date cannot be properly identified, so the coin in question has little or no numismatic premium. Unfortunately, almost my entire bid was based upon the value of the 1909-S, having assumed--based on your description--that it was a legitimate coin, which turned out not to be the case. Please advise what would be the best way to resolve this issue. Thanks for your understanding, Rick >>
His Response:
<< <i>Rick --- Please do us both a favor. I know what that coin looked like. I went to lengths to take another look at it when I answered questions of another person, with lots of disclosures, and an offer for specific photos to anybody who provided an email address several days before you bid, and in fact, you sniped at the last seconds, and asked for nothing then. You make a valid point, and it is indisputable that the significant value in the lot is the described 1909-S. I assume that you can provide your "extreme mag" photo to establish that the description of "190 is visible, as is the s, but the last digit is obscrubed by tarnish" was incorrect. If the first three digits are in fact 190, then the supplementary info in the listing will carry the day. If not, then I will agree that we have an issue to discuss farther. I'll need to take a further look at our additional photos also. >>
My Reply:
<< <i>Actually, the third digit much more closely resembles a "1" than a "0", so yes; it is my contention that your description of "190 is visible..." is a fallacy. More importantly, however, is the fact that the initials "V.D.B." appear on Lincoln’s shoulder. To anyone who is knowledgeable in numismatics and the minting process, it is an irrefutable fact that this coin could NOT possibly have been made in the year 1909, regardless of whether the partially-obliterated third digit in the date "kinda sorta" looks like a "0" to you or anyone else. The only way it would be possible for coin to bear the year 1909 AND have a "V.D.B." initials on the obverse would be if the coin were to have been deliberately altered, in which case such misrepresentation would be a clear violation of eBay policy. >>
<< <i>Furthermore, the fact that I bid on the coin in the last minute is irrelevant. Your listing explicitly states that a 1909-S Lincoln cent was to be included in this set. However, this set unquestionably does NOT contain any 1909-S coin whatsoever. Again, eBay policy forbids the misrepresentation of any item, regardless of whether it was intentional or otherwise. At the very least, you either owe me a genuine 1909-S Lincoln Cent, or full compensation for the missing item. >>
I included the above photos in my reply, but as you can imagine I am less-than-optimistic that this will be resolved peacefully. Judging by this guy's first response, it seems pretty obvious he'd rather play hardball with me than take responsibility for his mistake.
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Lance.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
That said, one thing you wrote to the seller jumped off the page to me:
<< <i>Again, eBay policy forbids the misrepresentation of any item, regardless of whether it was intentional or otherwise. At the very least, you either owe me a genuine 1909-S Lincoln Cent, or full compensation for the missing item. >>
Wouldn't simply returning the item for a refund be another possibility?
I do wish the OP the best of luck. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Excluded items:
From 1909 to 1918-s: 1909-s vdb; 1911-D and S; 1912-S; 1914-D and S; 1915-S
Meaning 23 pennies in this sequence.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>In the description, it states that the 1909-S V.D.B. is excluded?
Excluded items:
From 1909 to 1918-s: 1909-s vdb; 1911-D and S; 1912-S; 1914-D and S; 1915-S
Meaning 23 pennies in this sequence. >>
Yeah, however, a bidder asked about the condition of the 09-S and the seller replied? And based on the seller's response, the 09-S is included!
<< <i>In the description, it states that the 1909-S V.D.B. is excluded? >>
Correct. The issue I have is regarding the regular 1909-S (non-VDB) coin.
<< <i>Wouldn't simply returning the item for a refund be another possibility? >>
One would hope so, but his policy states "No Returns Accepted." That should have raised a red flag right there, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt due to his 100% feedback score. Bad assumption on my part.
<< <i>I was burned badly both by EBAY and Pay Pal as a buyer. Twice they protected scum. >>
Me too... twice so far in the past year, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, some of these unscrupulous sellers are very clever and know how to game the system to evade SNAD claims. Considering the seller's hardball attitude and clever wordplay, I suspect that's the type of person I'm dealing with here.
<< <i>That third photo is obviously of a 1919-S. >>
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Delivery confirmation is BS,
The way I read the auction it states the "'09-S is EXcluded".
Am I mssing something?
<< <i>That third photo is obviously of a 1919-S. >>
Yes.
Firstly, the DESCRIPTION of the auction does NOT mention an 09-s in any facet.
Secondly, his response to the question is vague at best and not everyone has magnification pictures, and "in hand" that would look like a super crappy 09-s to some. I'm pretty sure that eBay doesn't require magnification pictures in order to sell.
You may win the dispute with eBay but based on the DESCRIPTION of the item, I would say you may not. And, I for one, don't think you should win since 09-s wasn't at all the focus of the auction in any way other than a question asked later on.
eBay, of course, hates sellers with every ounce of it's fiber so the odds favor you, but they wouldn't in a real civil case.
<< <i>The way I read the auction it states the "'09-S is EXcluded". >>
What was excluded, according to the seller, is the 1909-s vdb.
Another reply states
<< <i>his response to the question is vague at best >>
But I see this "Questions and answers about this item
Q: what are the conditions of the 09-s,10-s,13-s?
A: I'm not competent to give "official" gradings, but here's a fair attempt in many more words: ."The 09-s is very worn
The auction photo also shows a coin in the 1909-S hole.
There's no mystery here. The buyer should file a complaint, return all the coins, hope for the best, and in future, avoid trying to get something for nothing.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
This is the reason I avoid auctions like this one.
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We could have avoided this problem if the seller sold it the last day of the auction on B/S/T!
<< <i>A bit off topic but for $50 more you could have bought a certified coin in much nicer condition. Not sure why you would buy a coin like this. >>
Couldn't help think that myself. I have a 09-S, a damaged one at that. It was once used in a pendant. One of my kids had won it in a youth mock auction. But I like details on my coins especially the date of the coin. I also have a very worn 1910-S cent, at least that's what I think it is. I better go check again, it just might be a 09-S.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I included the above photos in my reply, but as you can imagine I am less-than-optimistic that this will be resolved peacefully. Judging by this guy's first response, it seems pretty obvious he'd rather play hardball with me than take responsibility for his mistake. >>
Geez....!!!!...Judging the photos of those coins ...I'm suprised any colector would .. Want .. to purchase coins like those...!!!