You have just won and paid in full for an on-line auction coin ...
291fifth
Posts: 24,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
... let's assume it is a fairly expensive coin ... only to find out that the seller has received a higher offer and sold the coin out from under you AFTER you had paid in full.
Does the sellers action represent theft even if he refunds your money?
What about the after-the-auction-closed buyer? Has he also committed a crime?
Does the sellers action represent theft even if he refunds your money?
What about the after-the-auction-closed buyer? Has he also committed a crime?
All glory is fleeting.
0
Comments
Is it wrong, YES.
Is it illegal, PROVE IT!
Does it happen all the time, YES!
Possesion is 9/10ths the law.
<< <i>C'mon, we have been over this 1000 times.
Is it wrong, YES.
Is it illegal, PROVE IT!
Does it happen all the time, YES!
Possesion is 9/10ths the law. >>
We are assuming that the coin is expensive. Let's also assume that the original bidder has the means and willingness to pursue the issue.
Don't assume that the auction was on eBay.
It is very easy to accidentally sell a coin that is long gone when you leave the listing up online. I did it 2 nights ago. The buyer (another dealer so he understood) woke up to a refund and a very apologetic note. I know another dealer who has a lot of inventory up he doesn't have. One coin he was made aware of is still up weeks later (probably just hasn't got a round tuit but could be he just wants the traffic, I don't know him personally).
--Jerry
<< <i>Here's your money back..please leave...!!!! >>
The original buyer is wealthy, very wealthy. The coin was a rare variety that he has been searching for for many years and it is the last item he needs to complete his collection.
He learned of the after the fact sale when a competing collector bragged about it in an online message board posting and showed a photo.
He isn't going to just drop the issue.
What, legally, can he do?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's your money back..please leave...!!!! >>
The original buyer is wealthy, very wealthy. The coin was a rare variety that he has been searching for for many years and it is the last item he needs to complete his collection.
He learned of the after the fact sale when a competing collector bragged about it in an online message board posting and showed a photo.
He isn't going to just drop the issue.
What, legally, can he do? >>
Probably nothing. However, if he is that wealthy and serious then the dealer screwed up big time throwing him under the bus. He can offer to buy it from the new owner.
Proving he had a binding contract with the dealer may be tough unless he has it in writing. Then he has to prove damages. Buy it from the new owner and sue for the difference? I'm not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. --JErry
<< <i>Once he accepts payment, he no longer owns the coin. So, yes, it's theft. It's unlikely the expense of a civil lawsuit is worth it though. >>
Money is no object to this buyer since he is a multi-billionaire.
<< <i>The original buyer is wealthy, very wealthy. The coin was a rare variety that he has been searching for for many years and it is the last item he needs to complete his collection. >>
Depending on his wealth and how much he wants the coin...
1......take the parties to court..which will take a great deal of time and money
2.....offer to buy the coin from the other buyer
<< <i>under what stretch of the imagination could that ever be construed as theft given what you've stated? >>
Once a buyer purchases a coin from a seller and funds have transferred, they have entered into a binding bilateral agreement. At THAT point, ownership transfers to the buyer. The seller no longer owns that coin and is responsible for it's safe transfer to the buyer.
Generally, it's not worth the buyers time and money to pursue action against the seller. However, some people can afford to / and are willing to spend their expendable income to prove a point.
Legally, there is nothing I can do. It ain't my problem, I assume.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Once he accepts payment, he no longer owns the coin. So, yes, it's theft. It's unlikely the expense of a civil lawsuit is worth it though. >>
Are you sure that is when ownership transfer legally occurs? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't know from a legal perspective.
For example, a buyer is at a coin show and a deal is struck with a seller and both parties agree. The buyer hands the seller cash and the seller accepts the payment. The seller is about to hand over the coin only to receive a higher offer from another client. Since the seller agreed to the deal and accepted the payment (by taking the cash) but did not yet "deliver" the coin, did the buyer legally own the coin or did ownership require the buyer to take possession?
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>The original buyer is wealthy, very wealthy. The coin was a rare variety that he has been searching for for many years and it is the last item he needs to complete his collection. >>
Depending on his wealth and how much he wants the coin...
1......take the parties to court..which will take a great deal of time and money
2.....offer to buy the coin from the other buyer >>
That's actually good advice, and what I would do if it were me. Pursue it from both angles - obtain the coin from the other buyer, then take them both to court.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
2.It's the buyer of the coin's lucky day.If money truly is no object the billionaire just makes an offer to the owner that only a fool would pass up.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>under what stretch of the imagination could that ever be construed as theft given what you've stated? >>
When you buy a coin and pay for it, who owns it? It's not a difficult concept so don't stretch your imagination too much on this one.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't think there is a court in this nation that would consider that the new owner has done anything illegal.If I were the new owner of the coin,I'd be licking my chops big time if faced with the prospect of having to go to court on this one.
My lawyer better be telling me this or he'll be the one going to the beach.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>That's actually good advice, and what I would do if it were me. Pursue it from both angles - obtain the coin from the other buyer, then take them both to court. >>
There would be ..No..personal gain in that matter..because you would have won your coin by either choice.It would take up the court's time and your money and the other parties time and money...but the outcome would be that they would be tied up in litigation and judgements.....
Goldberg:
Goldberg reserves the right to withdraw any lot at any time, even after
the hammer has fallen, until the Purchaser has taken physical possession of
the lot.
Heritage:
Auctioneer reserves the right to rescind the sale in the event of nonpayment, breach of a
warranty, disputed ownership, auctioneer’s clerical error or omission in exercising bids and
reserves, or for any other reason and in Auctioneer’s sole discretion.
One would think this concept has already been tested and upheld.
Yep.The billionaire should tell his whole legal team to take the day off,go to the beach.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>take them both to court.
I don't think there is a court in this nation that would consider that the new owner has done anything illegal. >>
Receiving stolen property is now legal?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>or for any other reason
One would think this concept has already been tested and upheld.
Yep.The billionaire should tell his whole legal team to take the day off,go to the beach. >>
Where was it stated that there was an agreement to pr-existing terms before the sale..
If one goes ahead with a sale and provides a reciept for merchandise for seller is obligated to provide said merchandise...!!
Holiday Inn Express Law is specific with it's details you know....
hire a lawyer at $500 an hour and they'll tell you what to do.........eventually.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>No. No. and no. As scummy as it is, the seller does not have to close the deal if he does not wish. That was basically explained in full to me by a customer service representative on ebay. I am not so sure this is the case on teletrade or one of the bigger auction houses, but I would imagine that it would be the same case. >>
You got to be kidding. I thought a closed auction was a legally binding contract for the seller and the bidder.
<< <i>Once he accepts payment, he no longer owns the coin. So, yes, it's theft. It's unlikely the expense of a civil lawsuit is worth it though. >>
Not to worry. Just come here with your grievance, and the board will collectively shame the offending party into doing the right thing...
before the thread starts to eat itself somewhere around the 150th post.
<< <i>
<< <i>take them both to court.
I don't think there is a court in this nation that would consider that the new owner has done anything illegal. >>
Receiving stolen property is now legal?
The property is not stolen since the seller has always had possession. You can't steal something from someone that they don't have.
Receiving stolen property is not illegal. Knowingly receiving stolen property is illegal.
The contract is binding once the price is agreed upon and there is mutual consideration. The consideration is the money and the coin. At that point you have an enforceable contract. If the buyer pays and the seller fails to deliver you have a breach of contract and the buyer can sue the seller. Even if the buyer doesn't get the coin he could sue for punitive damages for fraud and/or bad faith.
The second buyer does not have title to the coin and could be forced to surrender it if the first buyer successfully sues the seller.
Your bid was accepted and paid. You own the coin at that point.
Therefore, it's illegal IMO to cancel it and sell it to someone else.
I bought a good piece of Hand Painted Nippon off ebay about 10 years ago at a VERY good price.
A day or two later, I received an email from the seller telling me he had dropped and broken it
as he was packaging it. And don't send payment.
I knew exactly what he was doing but had no proof so let it go.
Same principle involved.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>
Money is no object to this buyer since he is a multi-billionaire. >>
Something kind of stinks in this scenario, first does a billionaire even participate in the kind of bidding as discussed? If I were a billionaire my search would be only the cream of the crop coin dealers.
In addition a billionaire would not need someone from this forum or few others to tell them how deal with this, they simply squash the perputrator with a swarm of Atty's.
<< <i>I bought a good piece of Hand Painted Nippon off ebay about 10 years ago at a VERY good price.
A day or two later, I received an email from the seller telling me he had dropped and broken it
as he was packaging it. >>
.......
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
now you're thinkin'!
that's the way we do it where I'm from.
Are you saying the person has received the funds into their personal account?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I agree with this.Also,I think stealing would be a real stretch even for the dream team to make stick.
L@@k,no way do I condone the seller's actions.The smart seller would have re-explored the price with the billionaire.
If this had been done,the billionaire might have invited everyone to a bash on the beach,a day of fun and sun.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i> there is NO DOLLAR LOSS, no theft ,and no damages payable when people got their money back... >>
There could be consequential damages. What if a dealer is buying the the coin for a customer and the dealer was going to make a profit by selling the coin to the customer? The dealer is now out that profit and can sue for that. Also, society does not look favorably on people who breach contracts or do not deal fairly and honestly. The buyer can sue for punitive damages, which would discourage the seller from repeatedly breaching contracts. Getting his money back does not mean the buyer has no damages.
<< <i>If the money is refunded, it's not theft... it's a breach of contract >>
What if the buyer refuses the refund?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire