Blatant OBW Scam

rmpsrpms · November 11, 2009 9:33PM

Here's another one of those OBW scams on eBay I watch for. This one is blatant:
- Crimping too perfect
- End coins too bright
- Style of wrapper not vintage with year of issue
- Bank did not exist in year of issue

Seller is also supplying the rolls in a brand-new $10 roll box to make the rolls look more original.

Here is the link to the auction:

10 rolls 1955-S "OBW"

And here is the link to the history of the bank these supposedly came from.

History of Centinel Bank

The bank was founded in 1969, 14 years after the coins were made. This is clearly an example of modern re-wrapping.

This is NOT to say the coins are not nice. Just beware that they are not OBW, are likely to have been searched, and should probably be purchased at a discount rather than premium.

It's a shame, too, since the bank name "Centinel" is very eye-catching for those of us who collect Lincolns...

RayP

morgansforever · November 11, 2009 10:11PM

$360 is a bit stretchy, and only one roll available, or is it 10?
I think I paid $40 for a nice roll, two years ago.
This guy has one for $35, obviously not obw.
Nevermind the listing has ended.

$35roll

kryptonitecomics · November 11, 2009 10:16PM

It's no different then the folks reusing the old 50's Mint set holders and popping in shinny uncs and selling it as original.....shady as heck but nothing can be done as some folks have no morals and will do anything for a buck

Fountainhead · November 11, 2009 11:43PM

What, you can re-use the cellophane?

commoncents05 · November 11, 2009 11:49PM

<< What, you can re-use the cellophane? >>

Through 1958, Mint Sets were issued in paper packaging, not the cellophane.

-Paul

jmski52 · November 12, 2009 6:01AM

I find this to be somewhat interesting:

A.N.A. MEMBER #3127196

TrustNo1 · November 12, 2009 2:52PM

nice catch

sinin1 · November 12, 2009 3:21PM

I think you are being a little hard on this seller

you are implying they rolled them themselves, which may not be the case

the other rolls they have are from various banks

and they sell many items, not just rolls

grote15 · November 12, 2009 3:27PM

I think you are being a little hard on this seller

you are implying they rolled them themselves, which may not be the case

the other rolls they have are from various banks

and they sell many items, not just rolls

It is, however, the seller's responsibility that the items he sells are genuine and as described, and these rolls are not OBW as the title indicates if they were rolled years after issue.

Connecticoin · November 12, 2009 9:20PM

Good grief, it looks like the seller rolled those yesterday.

rmpsrpms · November 13, 2009 1:34AM

<< I think you are being a little hard on this seller

you are implying they rolled them themselves, which may not be the case >>

Never implied they did it themselves. They may have been defrauded themselves, but that's no excuse for passing it on to others. I also take exception to the description of "Vault Kept" and "Original Mint Sealed Box". That box is brand new, and not sealed.

RayP

rmpsrpms · November 13, 2009 1:47AM

<< I think you are being a little hard on this seller

you are implying they rolled them themselves, which may not be the case

the other rolls they have are from various banks

and they sell many items, not just rolls >>

You mean this obvious rewrap:

1958D Modern Rewrap

Or maybe this one:

1955D Modern Rewrap

Or this one in the same wrapper as the 1955D:

1951D Modern Rewrap

Or this 1944P in the same wrapper again:

1944P Modern Rewrap

I don't see a single roll for sale by this seller that looks legit. Does anyone really believe that, all of a sudden, a huge group of non bank-marked 25C rolls, which are rare enough anyway, showed up with exactly the same wrappers used over more than a 15 year period? But again, I am not saying the seller did the wrapping. Maybe he/she bought these in a big deal and now is trying to market them. Maybe the seller doesn't even know they are fake. But now that I have pointed it out, you all know. Caveat Emptor.

RayP

MMMCOINSMMM · November 13, 2009 1:54AM

As much as I would like to agree with this thread, Without real proof, its really just slander or actually libel. Just because a bank opened after the date of the rolls doesnt mean it didnt have them prior to opening. I would be careful posting some of these, posters could get sued.proof is required.... just an opinion.

grip · November 13, 2009 2:04AM

<< I think you are being a little hard on this seller

you are implying they rolled them themselves, which may not be the case

the other rolls they have are from various banks

and they sell many items, not just rolls

It is, however, the seller's responsibility that the items he sells are genuine and as described, and these rolls are not OBW as the title indicates if they were rolled years after issue. >>

....pretty shady

coinbuf · November 13, 2009 2:12AM

<< As much as I would like to agree with this thread, Without real proof, its really just slander or actually libel. Just because a bank opened after the date of the rolls doesnt mean it didnt have them prior to opening. I would be careful posting some of these, posters could get sued.proof is required.... just an opinion. >>

So your saying that a bank buys money, be it coin or paper, 14 yrs prior to its opening and holds on to them for 14yrs untill thay open their doors for business?? Does'nt sound very likely to me.

mrpotatoheadd · November 13, 2009 2:52AM

<< You mean this obvious rewrap:

1958D Modern Rewrap >>

Hint to rewrappers... it's probably best to not use wrappers with zip codes on them with coins dated before zip codes even existed...

The History of the ZIP Code

ZIP-(Zone Improvement Plan) Code Established in 1963, the system of 5-digit codes that identifies the individual post office or metropolitan area delivery station associated with an address.

sinin1 · November 13, 2009 6:58AM

what if the bank was a buy-out of another bank?

what if the bank bought a few bags from the reserve and got 15 year old coins?

I am not trying to defend anyone, just saying that to hang a guy before a trial is a little harsh

just back out of the listing and see what else is out there

maybe if you showed where the guy bought a bag of these in the last couple weeks or..... bought a box of empty wrappers .... or rolling machine

If I bought a few rolls, and then sold them, I probably would not check out to see if the bank was around then

Ed1840 · November 13, 2009 7:21AM

I don't think they are rolls from a sealed mint box as stated in the listing. It's like watching t.v.. If something is on that offends you, change the channel. If the coin(s) don't look right, don't buy them. Thanks for the heads up.

clackamas · November 13, 2009 7:21AM

Good call - Here is something from the Banks web site: " The dream of a locally owned Hispanic bank was finally a reality, and it opened its doors on March 1, 1969."

NotSure · November 13, 2009 7:51AM

I contacted the seller, with the information about the bank, the seller sent me this reply today:

Hi, I did not realize this. I bought a box of 20 rolls from another dealer. I appreciate the information. We have removed the auctions from ebay until we can verify this information. We are going to call the bank today. Have a Blessed day and be well. George

Then, 'George' sent me this not tpp long ago:

Hi, we checked it out and you were correct. I do not know how these rolls came to be, they look like they are original obw rolls. We are going to wholesale the remainder of the rolls. George

The item has, in fact, been ended, so.......perhaps this is an honest seller....

rmpsrpms · November 13, 2009 12:40PM

<< 

The item has, in fact, been ended, so.......perhaps this is an honest seller.... >>

I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well...

rmpsrpms · November 13, 2009 12:45PM

<< 

<< You mean this obvious rewrap:

1958D Modern Rewrap >>

Hint to rewrappers... it's probably best to not use wrappers with zip codes on them with coins dated before zip codes even existed...

The History of the ZIP Code

ZIP-(Zone Improvement Plan) Code Established in 1963, the system of 5-digit codes that identifies the individual post office or metropolitan area delivery station associated with an address. >>

Excellent info. I had not realized this. Now I have another tool in my arsenal to root our those rewrappers...

rmpsrpms · November 13, 2009 12:51PM

<< As much as I would like to agree with this thread, Without real proof, its really just slander or actually libel. Just because a bank opened after the date of the rolls doesnt mean it didnt have them prior to opening. I would be careful posting some of these, posters could get sued.proof is required.... just an opinion. >>

Libel: a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming a living person

Since my purpose was to alert others to the non-original nature of these rolls, not to defame the seller, I don't think my statements could be considered libel. And I don't think any of my statements were false anyway.

grote15 · November 13, 2009 1:10PM

It does appear from his response that the seller is trustworthy. It proabbly never occurred to him to check on the founding of the bank on the wrappers. Glad to hear he is doing the right thing. He could have easily ignored the issue and sold them all this way.

It's really ridiculous, IMO, to suggest that the OP could be sued for libel in this case for posting a scenario that turned out to be true on an internet message board. Good grief, are we as collectors to be that afraid to voice concerns or opinions, especially those based on fact as the OP did? The amount of frivilous and baseless litigation in this country is a prmary reason we are in such a sorry state as a nation.

jmski52 · November 14, 2009 12:29AM

As much as I would like to agree with this thread, Without real proof, its really just slander or actually libel. Just because a bank opened after the date of the rolls doesnt mean it didnt have them prior to opening. I would be careful posting some of these, posters could get sued.proof is required.... just an opinion.

Those are not original bankwrapped rolls. Case closed. Not libel, not slander. Simply the truth.

The fact that this guy is selling multiple auctions with rolls that are obviously not what he represented them as - is no grounds for a suit against the whistle-blower. Well, actually he could sue anyone but he'd never win the suit.

golfer72 · November 14, 2009 12:34AM

"The amount of frivilous and baseless litigation in this country is a prmary reason we are in such a sorry state as a nation." Bingo! Well said.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 14, 2009 12:57AM

Scams eventually catch up to the guys who run them.
They've followed a path that they can't outrun.

BigRick · November 14, 2009 1:01AM

Even IF the seller was the most honest person in the world (which he might be) there's no excuse for not doing simple Simple Due Diligence to at least verify the bank was in existence in 1955 before making such claims!

You'd think if someone were going to intentionally run such a scam they'd at least use a bank's name that WAS in existence at the time.

grip · November 14, 2009 1:45AM

I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well...

He knows exactly what hes doing..hes got a BS line as long as a city block.

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:05PM

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:08PM

<< I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well...

He knows exactly what hes doing..hes got a BS line as long as a city block. >>

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:10PM

<< 

<< 

The item has, in fact, been ended, so.......perhaps this is an honest seller.... >>

I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well... >>

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:19PM

<< Here's another one of those OBW scams on eBay I watch for. This one is blatant:
- Crimping too perfect
- End coins too bright
- Style of wrapper not vintage with year of issue
- Bank did not exist in year of issue

Seller is also supplying the rolls in a brand-new $10 roll box to make the rolls look more original.

Here is the link to the auction:

10 rolls 1955-S "OBW"

And here is the link to the history of the bank these supposedly came from.

History of Centinel Bank

The bank was founded in 1969, 14 years after the coins were made. This is clearly an example of modern re-wrapping.

This is NOT to say the coins are not nice. Just beware that they are not OBW, are likely to have been searched, and should probably be purchased at a discount rather than premium.

It's a shame, too, since the bank name "Centinel" is very eye-catching for those of us who collect Lincolns...

RayP >>

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:21PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

The item has, in fact, been ended, so.......perhaps this is an honest seller.... >>

I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well... >>

>>

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:22PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

The item has, in fact, been ended, so.......perhaps this is an honest seller.... >>

I hope so, and if that's the case I feel sorry he got shafted on these coins. But he should also end every single one of his other "OBW" listings as well... >>

>>

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 10:23PM

OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands

ksteelheader · November 18, 2009 10:38PM

<< OK, the bank opened in 1969, at this time there were a lot of bags of wheat pennies floating around, who are you to say that the bank did not receive some of these coins prior to 1969 and rolled them? you people have to much time on your hands >>

too

COINMAN776677 · November 18, 2009 11:09PM

Rat in the woodpile, just sharing my opinion like everyone else. Please excuse me for the minor typing error on the last post.

rmpsrpms · November 19, 2009 12:22AM

<< Rat in the woodpile, just sharing my opinion like everyone else. Please excuse me for the minor typing error on the last post. >>

Your method of replying to multiple posts with the same exact (typographically incorrect) message is a type of spamming. If you're going to reply, at least custom-tailor the reply to what you are replying to. And by the way I definitely don't have too much time on my hands and don't appreciate unfounded insults. I choose what I do very carefully to not waste what little time I have (we all have) on this earth.

And to your point, 1955-S cents were already a collector coin (last year of SF mint, hoarded by the millions) by 1969. Maybe if the roll was a 1958-D I could give credence to your point.

RayP

COINMAN776677 · November 19, 2009 1:44AM

<< Rat in the woodpile, just sharing my opinion like everyone else. Please excuse me for the minor typing error on the last post. >>

Your method of replying to multiple posts with the same exact (typographically incorrect) message is a type of spamming. If you're going to reply, at least custom-tailor the reply to what you are replying to. And by the way I definitely don't have too much time on my hands and don't appreciate unfounded insults. I choose what I do very carefully to not waste what little time I have (we all have) on this earth.

And to your point, 1955-S cents were already a collector coin (last year of SF mint, hoarded by the millions) by 1969. Maybe if the roll was a 1958-D I could give credence to your point.

<< My apologies if I insulted you. New at doing this coin forum thing and new to the US., need a little slack. The reason they were all the same is because it was copied and pasted. I can see your point about the 55-s, I am NO expert on rolls. Makes me nervous to buy any rolls or anything off of ebay. I like my type coins anyways. Again, my apologies. >>

rmpsrpms · November 19, 2009 12:28PM

<< << Rat in the woodpile, just sharing my opinion like everyone else. Please excuse me for the minor typing error on the last post. >>

Your method of replying to multiple posts with the same exact (typographically incorrect) message is a type of spamming. If you're going to reply, at least custom-tailor the reply to what you are replying to. And by the way I definitely don't have too much time on my hands and don't appreciate unfounded insults. I choose what I do very carefully to not waste what little time I have (we all have) on this earth.

And to your point, 1955-S cents were already a collector coin (last year of SF mint, hoarded by the millions) by 1969. Maybe if the roll was a 1958-D I could give credence to your point.

<< My apologies if I insulted you. New at doing this coin forum thing and new to the US., need a little slack. The reason they were all the same is because it was copied and pasted. I can see your point about the 55-s, I am NO expert on rolls. Makes me nervous to buy any rolls or anything off of ebay. I like my type coins anyways. Again, my apologies. >> >>

No worries, I guess I was a bit on edge today. Been super busy at work and not nearly enough time left for roll searching...RayP

Blatant OBW Scam

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