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It's the end of the world as we know it: Jeter wins Gold Glove
yankeeno7
Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Holy crapola....this is going to bother some people badly! LOL Now they will have TONS to whine about!
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yankeeno7
Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭
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Steve
<< <i>He must have bought it.
Steve >>
POTY!
How much ?
<< <i>I'm saving my whining for trying to get Raines into the HOF. >>
More like you've already blown your load creating at least 25 threads proclaiming Jeter is the most overrated defensive player ever.
Are Yankee haters pathetic or what!?!?
Steve
<< <i>We've already got a thread on this. >>
Sorry Von, didnt see it but it wouldnt have mattered even if I did
What do the writers have to do with GG awards?
I was always under the impression that Managers and Coaches voted for these awards.
Steve
And Managers and coaches can not vot for players on there teams.
Steve
Steve
only AL SS to play 150 games
led the AL in fielding % at SS
committed only 8 errors
Scutaro up in Toronto had a fantastic season and if Jeter wasn't on the Yankees (and the Yankees didn't win the WS), he probably would've won. But most of the writers probably don't look at film--they probably just look at the numbers. And Jeter's numbers look really pretty
<< <i>Scutaro up in Toronto had a fantastic season and if Jeter wasn't on the Yankees (and the Yankees didn't win the WS), he probably would've won. But most of the writers probably don't look at film--they probably just look at the numbers. And Jeter's numbers look really pretty >>
Couldn't agree more. and what about Aybar out west in Los Angeles of Anaheim? played less games then Jeter, but had more total chances, put-outs, assists and double plays. Jeter can only dream about making some of the plays Aybar does.
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Wonder why all the opposing Managers and coaches selected Jeter?
Steve
<< <i>Wonder why all the opposing Managers and coaches selected Jeter?
Steve >>
Probably the same reason why they gave it to Palmeiro when he was a DH. Though at least they knew enough to give it to a guy that actually did play the field this time.
Steve, how did the Ryan Howard bandwagon feel when you rode it after the Dodgers series? Just wondering, as I read a few comments by you making jabs at how he was called overrated
Also, what happened to the ground swell that Arod was not a post season player, or teams were better off without him? Seems all that post season hype is just a myth.
wrong tree, my comment(s) were specifically :
I said his season was not on the down swing like some (you) mentioned here.
His season was better then last year statistically.
Furthermore you of all people should know that in a short series good pitching can and will shut down
good hitting.
So now that you are fully aware of my actual comments how does that make you feel?
Howard did not have a worse season like you claimed he would.
He could actually plateau for a few seasons and not turn into the next bum.
As for the Palmiero thing that is getting old, come up with something new.
lastly my comments about Managers and coaches picking the winners was simply an attempt at informing those that
thought the writers were picking them yet my lone comment to tree top is the one you seem to have grasped unto.
Fair enough, I stand by that comment.
Hopefully you will accept the fact that Howard had a better season then last.
And were shown to be wrong, regardless of what he did in 3 weeks during the PO's.
Good try though. You seem bitter Skip, what is up? You could have at least trashed the Mets they deserve it.
Ryan Howard certainly doesn't
Steve
My examination of Howard was that he is not the HOF player people think he was(as per what he did in 2006). You don't have to tell me that he may have a couple of more plateu seasons, that is to be expected. But to think he is a HOF caliber player capable of the 2006 version, is simply wrong. That guy is gone, and I said will never come back...and he hasn't. His lineup is HOF caliber, but not he...which fools everyone into thinking he is. He will fall off the table quickly before age 35...and it is only a guess as to when...but it well come before then, and he wont sniff the Hall merit wise.
You picked a good time to make your comment after the good series...seems the post season hype got you. That stuff is ALL a myth. There is no such thing as a post season player. That was said by you about Arod all these years too. What happened with him? The funny thing is that Arod WAS good in the post seasn before anyway.
The gold glove is simply a popularity vote by the coaches. They don't spend the adaqute time to research it. If they looked at every single fielding play like some do, then their vote would mean something, but they don't...so it doesn't.
And yes, they voted for a DH for the gold glove. This will be repeated forever as that is as da*#ning thing as there could possibly be on that process, or any process. It pretty much makes it a trivial vote. It isn't much different than in the move Major League when they had a dead guy on a list of possible spring training invitees.
he was going to be the next Kingman and have Kingman type stats from this season forward.
If Hall of Fame was mentioned in that thread I was unaware of it (when I made my posts)
Telling me that these awards are a popularity contest is not something I was not aware of.
Why hostility towards me this evening Skip? Have you been burning up inside since I made that comment
3 to 6 weeks ago? Glad you finally got it off your chest.
Steve
Umm actually Skip I made that comment a few times. I think you just happened upon it during the PO's
One series had no bearing on my statement. If that is what you are implying.
Steve
Steve
This thread is dedicated to the ongoing progress of Ryan Howard's transformation into Dave Kingman. One cannot knock Howard's 2006-2007 hitting. He was not near Kingman in those two years. Last year he was simply lucky with his men on base hitting, and by having a lot of runners on when he hit. That luck will not continue forever. What looks to be continuing is this...
Ryan Howard
Year....AVG/League AVG....OB%/LG OB%.......SLG%/LG SLG%
2008....251/.271.................339/.343.....................543/.432
2009....252/267..................325/342......................516/.423
Keep in mind that these are supposed to be Howard's prime years!
Lets look at Dave Kingman's LIFETIME totals, which include his prime years, as well as his non-prime years(which Howard hasn't gone through yet).
Dave Kingman
Year.....AVG/League AVG....OB%/LG OB%.......SLG%/LG SLG%
Career..236/262...................302/329....................478/.389
This, of course, is a public service announcement for anybody putting money into Howard's RC cards thinking he will end up an all time great. Sell them while you can.
By the way, Howard turns 30 this November. More PED's anyone?
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Truth, Justice, and the American way.........in sports evaluating
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Didn't Howard have another 40 hr. 140 rbi season? Did his average go up 30 points?
Yeah Skip he definetly transformed into Dave Kingman. And I did not see any refrence to the HOF only some
comments about his rookie cards. I know Skip the luck continued.
Do not fear Skip one day you may be proved right (when Howard is about 39)
Steve
The statement I made about his rookie cards says he will not end up an all time great, it says it right there. Where are you looking? So it doesn't say HOF, but "all time great" gets the jist. Why did you ignore that????
He will not be an all time great, and that is my point of that thread, or any thread on him. His season this year is not that of an all time great. Well, unless you ignore the inflated offensive era that it occured in.
His average went up 30 points from the previous year. However, his only year where he was a HOF caliber player(2006), he has not been able to replicate. He is not at that level. He is simply fortunate that he has a great lineup to keep his counting totals up to that perceived level. But when you measure HIS performance, and not that of his teammates, he has not replicated that HOF caliber year.
I am correct already, as he has not had another HOF caliber year besides 2006. He will be Sexson before age 35. Dont ahve to wait til age 39.
Now, tell me again how Palmerio won the gold glove as a DH, and how on earth Arod managed to remember how to hit in the post season since he was not capable (in your estimation) of doing so. And how Arod was able to win a ring, when in your estimation the teams he left were always better off for it?
Why are you jumping all over me?
I have no idea why they gave it to Palmeiro, what part of me saying the Managers not the writers give out the aard didn't you understand.
I was simply telling people that did not know.
Steve
Are you stalking me?
Steve
"This, of course, is a public service announcement for anybody putting money into Howard's RC cards thinking he will end up an all time great. Sell them while you can."
Steve, my apologies if it seems I am 'jumping' all over you. I really am just partaking in some sports talk jabbing. I mean no harm, or ill will.
I didn't miss your informative post about who votes for the gold glove award. That was a good post, and shed some corrective light.
I was basically commenting on the merit of that process...not your informative post regarding it.
LOL, Steve, I remember people's stands in debates I partake in here. No, I am not stalking you...though I may be tempted to
<< <i>
I was always under the impression that Managers and Coaches voted for these awards. >>
Thanks for the correction. Should have looked it up first
Anyone know how many votes he recieved?
Looking at the better shortstops:
G ch po a e dp fp rf
Derek Jeter 150 554 206 340 8 75 .986 3.6
Cesar Izturis 112 508 171 337 8 62 .985 4.5
Elvis Andrus 145 668 261 407 22 87 .968 4.6
Erick Ayabar 136 618 240 378 11 96 .983 4.5
From looking at this it seems Erick Ayabar would be the best choice. Of course Gold Gloves tend to go to better hitters, just one of those awards thta's way to political.
Save on ebay with Big Crumbs
<< <i>Those that see these players day in and day out >>
Actually they would be the people who see these players rarely. AL East opponents see Jeter 18 days a year. Some NL opponents saw him ... zero times. . .
(or do they not vote on the other leagues?)
His very large popularity was foremost, the fact that he was a prior winner also helped greatly.
He did lead the AL in Fldg Pct., and also in Zone rate, however, he was just 8th among the 100+ game started SS in DP, and was dead last in range factor.
As for AL games at SS,
Orlando Cabrera started 157 games, both Jeter and Alexi Rameriz started 147, in the same number of games, Rameriz had almost 100 MORE chances than Jeter.
Raffy Palmerio, a fine defender, did play in just 28 games at 1B back in 1999, and managed to win a GG as a firstbaseman.
I find the following quote, by Bill James, from part of an article appearing in the Fielding Bible,, quite interesting, as he talks about Derek Jeter,
" He is not a Gold Glove quality shortstop. He isn’t an average defensive shortstop. Giving him every possible break on the unknowns, he is still going to emerge as a below average defensive shortstop. "
Only the AL coaches and managers vote for the AL GG.
I guess 'everyday' is a lil misleading.
Steve
Isn't it possible that Yankee pitchers got more fly outs?
Or had more strikeouts etc?
It's easy to proclaim Jeter had less errors because he had no range and thus balls that other SS
get to he waved at. (Not saying you said that) How can we be assured that he had the same amount of balls hit his way
as a guy that had 100 more chances then him? Or do they have some stat that tells us this info?
Steve
it is possible, that about 100 less balls were placed in the SS area for Jeter, than were hit/thrown at Rameriz,
it is also possible that while starting 7 less games at SS, Elvis Andrus had about 140 more balls hit/thrown his way.
but not likely.
There are stats which account for zones or vectors, areas of the ball field, and how others perform in similar situations. The aforementioned Fielding Bible, has I think, a free web site, and should give much detail if you are interested.
I believe every "advanced" ( ? ) defensive evaluation method, and many common ones, calculate Jeter as an average defender, at best.
I 'don't disagree that he is an average fielder at best or that other players field better then him.
I just found it funny that some people made the claim that he had less chances because he gets to less balls.
Especially since they really had no idea just how many balls were hit his way.
Thanks for replying.
Steve
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The first thing would be to look at how many strike outs the pitching staff had...a strikeout produces no chance for the SS to have an assist(except for the possible bizzare play).
The Yankees pitchers had 1,260 strikeouts.
THe Rangers pitchers had 1,016 strikeouts.
That is 244 less chances that Yankee fielders(not counting catchers) had to make a putout or an assist.
From the Yankees totals, roughly estimating, Jeter made appx 1/6 of the possible putouts and assists from non strikeouts, or catcher/first base putouts.
Given another 244 fielding outs for the Yankee fielders, it is pretty reasonable to expect 1/6 of those to go to Jeter. So another 40 balls he gets. He is still 100 away from Andrus.
Of course, of the rest of the balls hit, it is possible that they simply weren't hit in his area. Maybe more went Cano's direction. Cano did have about 64 more assists than Jeter. Of course, that could be because he is better, or it could be because more balls simply went that way. Then also, Jeter or Cano can be inflating/deflating one another's putout total based on their double play combo type plays.
Sooooo, if we gave Jeter those extra 64 assist chances that are assumed to have gone Cano's way, then he is still 36 from Andrus. But then you have to look at Andrus's situation too :0
Or....
If you want to simplify, or avoid, all that detective work, just use the analysis where the researchers look at every single batted ball put in play in MLB and chart the direction they went (as Jaxxr pointed out). The guess work is answered
But...before the video analysis data was around...it is C.S.I time baby!!!! I love that time!!!!!!
Edited to add...Softparade, I may go grab a drink right now. Cheers to the Yanks awesome season, and Jeter's quest for Rose's hit record.
Boo for Melky Cabrera, costing the Yankees a lineup of all OPS+ over 100. Cabrera was at 99, and the next lowest was 126!!!!! Just a neat tidbit
Skip wouldn't the amount of fly balls also have an effect on the amount of plays Jeter could have had?
If the Yankee OF made 100 more putouts then the next team I would think that would have an impact as well.
Most of the talk is then 'perception' Or what they want to believe.
I wonder why no one ever praises him for his offense?
Steve
I don't know how many people praise him for his offense.
The dude is a better hitter than Ichiro, and Ichiro gets sucked off all the time.
Two things are going to make Jeter special in everyone's eyes, one is not usually appearant to fans, and the other is...but hasn't happened yet.
The first, is the realization that his offense is coming from the SS position. Many don't recognize the value this brings to a baseball team.
The second, is that it looks like he is going to be very good for a very long time! Good Longevity! People do recognize this, and as the counting totals keep adding, he will begin to be recognized for something special. He just turned in one of his best seasons at age 35.
It is hard to guess what will happen in post age 35 seasons...but I think he has a lot of good ones left.
That was precisely what I was implying.
I think his offense equals out any perceived lack of defense.
Steve
OMG, 2012 is true?
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