Is this 1799 on ebay real?

PCcoins · October 16, 2009 9:43AM

This 1799 looks fake to me, at least the dentils on the reverse do.

1799 dollar

Raybo · October 16, 2009 9:50AM

Tooled?

tjkillian · October 16, 2009 9:53AM

It looks real to me. But because of the counterfiets coming out of China, I'd be wary.

AUandAG · October 16, 2009 10:04AM

Has a huge die cracks through O in OF. Should be able to determine if it's the real deal
or not. Not my series and I am no expert. Others will chime in for sure.
Looks real to me,,,,,,but what do I know?
bob

tightbudget · October 16, 2009 10:27AM

It looks okay to me

Steve27 · October 16, 2009 10:32AM

The stars look wrong to me; IMO it's fake. Here's a real one for comparison:

braddick · October 16, 2009 10:32AM

What a bunch of skeptics we've become.

Oh, well. That's probably a good thing, but still, kind of sad at the same time.

jesbroken · October 16, 2009 10:34AM

The "1" looks strange to me, but I'm certainly not an expert. All the photos I have of this date show a flat level top of the one, and this photo appears to me to be sloped downward.
Jim

SilverEagles92 · October 16, 2009 10:37AM

If this coin is genuine, why wouldn't the seller send it to a TPG?

Bust Dollars are some of the coins most commonly counterfeited by Chinese counterfeiters, and he's selling the coin raw through the same venue the scammers use to push their wares.

PerryHall · October 16, 2009 10:39AM

No returns = No bid from me

Expensive coins like this are usually raw for a reason.

PCcoins · October 16, 2009 10:42AM

I'm no expert with these coins.

I just thought the coin looked off?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · October 16, 2009 10:48AM

real

GoldenEyeNumismatics · October 16, 2009 10:49AM

<< If this coin is genuine, why wouldn't the seller send it to a TPG?
>>

A lot of coins still get sold raw. Just because it isn't in a TPG holder doesn't mean anything.

PerryHall · October 16, 2009 10:54AM

<< Just because it isn't in a TPG holder doesn't mean anything. >>

It means there is no guarantee that it's authentic or free of problems such as cleaning, tooling, ATing, filed rims, repaired, filled hole, etc.

CaptHenway · October 16, 2009 11:08AM

<< 

<< Just because it isn't in a TPG holder doesn't mean anything. >>

It means there is no guarantee that it's authentic or free of problems such as cleaning, tooling, ATing, filed rims, repaired, filled hole, etc. >>

Just the other day somebody sent me a $20 Liberty in a major TPG slab with eight deep, crisscrossed cuts in the reverse. The obverse was fine, and obviously the graded graded it by the obverse and never turned it over. It was graded MS-62. I sent it back.

That said, I see nothing about the photos of the 1799 dollar that make me suspicious of the coin in the photos. Whether or not you will receive the coin in the photos I have no idea.

TD

nankraut · October 16, 2009 11:20AM

<< If this coin is genuine, why wouldn't the seller send it to a TPG?

Bust Dollars are some of the coins most commonly counterfeited by Chinese counterfeiters, and he's selling the coin raw through the same venue the scammers use to push their wares. >>

BINGO!! Some of the Chinese counterfeits are so good, I can't tell the difference anymore; so I NEVER buy a bust dollar unless it's in a TPG holder. Sad---but that's the way it is.

rec78 · October 16, 2009 11:37AM

I vote real and i see nothing in any of his other auctions that would make me suspicious. His feedback says a lot also. And i agree that there are many many coins that are raw and have never been submitted to TPG's for grading. There are millions of coins in bank vaults (and home safes for that matter) that have not seen the light of day for many years before TPG's came along and will be there for many years to come. Over 95% of my coins are raw-I prefer it that way -i have accumulated most of them before tpg's became a fad. Besides they take up a lot less room in the dafe deposit box if they are raw. As for the coin in question i have no idea if it ever was submitted to a tpg or ever will be or if it was and returned for some reason. Judging by the sellers auctions and feedback it seems to me that he is a fairly honest person-Why not just ask him why it is not in a slab? JMO-Bob

droopyd · October 16, 2009 11:51AM

We're looking at a coin that would probably be in the $3k range if certified as authentic and problem free. Even in a "gennie" or "details" holder it would likely fetch north of $2k.

The seller appears to be savvy enough to know that he's leaving money on the table by trying to sell it raw.

messydesk · October 16, 2009 11:58AM

B-10

notwilight · October 16, 2009 12:33PM

<< I'm no expert with these coins.

I just thought the coin looked off? >>

Then edit your post. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. I too am no expert in this series but it took me 3 minutes on heritage to find one of the same variety with the same die cracks. Heritage Archives.. I'm fine with you asking the question but you then post your hyperlink as "1799 Fake Dollar", condemn the sellers other auctions without reason, and conclude with the bright red frowny face of disgust.

You've convicted, hanged, and buried him. Now lets think about having a trial. This forum seems to have turned into a mindless mob eager to lynch ebay sellers but unwilling to do 5 minutes of research.

--Jerry

lkenefic · October 16, 2009 1:28PM

I think this is as much of an indictment on ebay (being an outlet for counterfeiters) as it is on the OP for jumping to a very big conclusion. I agree we should all do more due diligence before leveling accusations. That said... this is one issue that I would probably only buy from a reputable dealer with contingencies for if it fails to holder.

L

WoodenJefferson · October 16, 2009 2:13PM

One has to take into consideration that in 1799, the mint in Philadelphia was in was in its infancy, utilizing nothing but crude machinery to strike these coins. There was nothing but a hand rotated castaing machine for the lettered edges and a screw press, where the coiner inserted one planchet at a time. This planchet may or may not have been hand filed in order to obtain the correct weight for a silver dollar, making the surfaces uneven and strike up differently than the next.

PrivateCoinCollector · October 16, 2009 3:22PM

Arm's length fake.

crazyhounddog · October 17, 2009 2:11AM

It's real. Would I bid on this piece with no return? NO

mr1931S · October 17, 2009 2:53AM

Appears to me to be genuine as well but if I can't return an expensive item like this I wouldn't bid on it in the first place.

Its not in a slab.This wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying but you have got to let me return if I don't like it. Like so many others, I don't lightly regard the few thousand dollars that it legitimately takes to buy an authentic higher grade Bust dollar.

I don't understand how one can guarantee authenticity of an item like this but will not allow return within a reasonable time frame.A return at my,the buyer's, expense is even okay.

Coinsponge · October 17, 2009 2:54AM

Well, looks like you got some good advice on this coin but now you may have some extra bidders also.

telephoto1 · October 17, 2009 3:09AM

<< 

<< I'm no expert with these coins.

I just thought the coin looked off? >>

Then edit your post. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. I too am no expert in this series but it took me 3 minutes on heritage to find one of the same variety with the same die cracks. Heritage Archives.. I'm fine with you asking the question but you then post your hyperlink as "1799 Fake Dollar", condemn the sellers other auctions without reason, and conclude with the bright red frowny face of disgust.

You've convicted, hanged, and buried him. Now lets think about having a trial. This forum seems to have turned into a mindless mob eager to lynch ebay sellers but unwilling to do 5 minutes of research.

--Jerry >>

This piece is not only real, but it's a textbook Bolender-10...it has been cleaned however (it has the grayish/yellow washed out look of a thiourea-dipped piece imo)... and that's likely the reason why there are conflicting opinions, and also likely why it's being offered raw in my opinion.

diamondman · October 17, 2009 3:22AM

some people Like it raw some don't .

I vote for real but cleaned. JMHO

grip · October 17, 2009 3:24AM

It also states by seller that the coin has scratches.The coin is real.

crazyhounddog · October 17, 2009 3:38AM

I have just e-mail the seller and asked " If this coin turns out to be a fake, can I return it for a full refund including shipping" Let see how he responds....

jdillane · October 17, 2009 4:23AM

Coin pictured is real. Tough to discern issues it may have and thus is one to avoid unless dirt cheap, in view of the no return policy.

yellowkid · October 17, 2009 4:27AM

<< 

<< If this coin is genuine, why wouldn't the seller send it to a TPG?
>>

A lot of coins still get sold raw. Just because it isn't in a TPG holder doesn't mean anything. >>

I have to disagree with you, the fact that the coin isn't in a holder is a huge factor as to it's authenticity.

In any event, I enjoy these "real or fake" posts.

Covenantcoin · October 17, 2009 4:47AM

Looks OK to me But you`d better make sure there is a return priviledge. Anyone
in their right mind would have the coin certified if it were problem free.Any genuine early
dollar you see raw will be a problem coin.That`s par for the course.

telephoto1 · October 17, 2009 4:54AM

<< I have to disagree with you, the fact that the coin isn't in a holder is a huge factor as to it's authenticity. >>

Sigh... no offense but this has my vote for dumb statement of the day. Unless it was made in jest. I hope.
There are tons of raw coins on ebay, and Asian fakes notwithstanding, even now the majority of them are genuines. Now, some may have problems (as this one does, i.e. cleaning) where the seller decided not to submit them, and others may not be rare, valuable, or high grade enough to warrant submission, but believe it or not, some sellers are...follow me on this...actually confident enough in their own grading and counterfeit detection skills that they will offer something *gasp* raw!
I know, it blows me away too...some sellers actually know something about what they're selling! What a concept.

Covenantcoin · October 17, 2009 5:03AM

Hey,check this out.Someone just told me that a certified coin will bring more money
than a raw one.Is this true?

grip · October 17, 2009 5:34AM

<< Looks OK to me But you`d better make sure there is a return priviledge. Anyone
in their right mind would have the coin certified if it were problem free.Any genuine early
dollar you see raw will be a problem coin.That`s par for the course. >>

I nominate this one for the second dumb statement of the day.

ziggy29 · October 17, 2009 10:41AM

<< You've convicted, hanged, and buried him. Now lets think about having a trial. This forum seems to have turned into a mindless mob eager to lynch ebay sellers but unwilling to do 5 minutes of research. >>

Actually, I convict, bury and hang eBay for letting so much of this stuff go on. It casts a lot more doubt on ALL eBay sellers than the good ones deserve.

The thing is, I can't think of any *reputable* dealer on eBay who regularly sells coins who would try to sell a coin like this raw -- especially in this day and age of all TPGs slabbing coins as "genuine." Dealers aren't in the business of leaving hundreds or thousands of easy dollars on the table if the coin is real. For a Bust Dollar, I am far less concerned about whether the coin is graded VF-30 or XF-40 than I am that the damn thing is certified and guaranteed genuine.

But more to your point: While I agree that people are quick to condemn sellers in general, I nevertheless think that the *extreme* wariness and skepticism we have about raw coins that are valuable and very commonly fakes is more than warranted.

And maybe it's just artifacting on the image, but the '1' in the date looks bad.

notwilight · October 17, 2009 10:54AM

ziggy,
You now seem to be convicting ebay sellers of a failed attempt to be you. Surely it is ok to have different ideas than you have.

This is only about a $1000 coin raw or in a genuine holder. It is a matter of opinion how much money he may or may not be leaving on the table. Look at his history and feedback and you can see that he is somewhat successful. I wouldn't call him one of the best sellers on ebay but even in med school, there are doctors that finish at the bottom of their class.

--Jerry

PCcoins · October 17, 2009 10:58AM

Ok, the coin is real. My bad.

I'll stick to my series

notwilight · October 17, 2009 11:12AM

<< Ok, the coin is real. My bad.

I'll stick to my series

>>

Thanks for editing. There is nothing wrong with asking if you don't draw conclusions in your post. You will either point out a fake, or get a legitimate coin more page views. --Jerry

sinin1 · October 17, 2009 2:01PM

Ok, the coin is real. My bad.

I'll stick to my series

..... or a fake made from dies of a B-10

who had the sale a few years ago where they pulled some bust halves because some experts decided a few bust halves were copies of some other coins in the auction?

PCcoins · October 18, 2009 7:10AM

Honestly, I don't know if it's real or fake. But I did accuse the ebay seller of trying to sell a fake coin, before I had any facts or opinions about this coin.

This is the last time I try to out the fakes on ebay....

ziggy29 · October 18, 2009 7:27AM

<< ziggy,
You now seem to be convicting ebay sellers of a failed attempt to be you. >>

That's really a silly comment. I'm not "convicting" anyone of anything. I'm just saying there is a justifiable fear and suspicion of raw coins on eBay, but that doesn't mean one needs to indict sellers of valuable raw coins as a bunch of crooks knowingly trying to rip people off. But I confess I don't understand why someone who is an experienced and ethical coin seller on eBay would sell a coin like this raw. I'm sure some do, but personally it feels like leaving a lot of money on the table, which people in business are generally not in the business of doing.

Personally I think you get a little too defensive about questioning of any eBay sellers on this forum sometimes. I personally believe that if ethical sellers such as yourself want to see some of the reputation of eBay coin sellers improve, I'd think you'd be front and center in wanting to curtail ripoffs and sales of *known* fakes instead of ripping into everyone who calls an auction into question. I hate to see the good dragged down with the bad, and I also hate seeing the good criticize anyone who calls out the bad. I think people cross the line when they accuse anyone of being an intentional scam artist when they see someone selling a questionable coin -- but you seem to react as if any time someone questions the authenticity of a raw coin offered up on eBay, they are calling out the seller as an intentional scammer.

kaz · October 18, 2009 11:30AM

<< Honestly, I don't know if it's real or fake. But I did accuse the ebay seller of trying to sell a fake coin, before I had any facts or opinions about this coin.

This is the last time I try to out the fakes on ebay....

>>

There is nothing wrong with posting a coin you aren't sure about, just be sure you don't come to any premature conclusions.

Is this 1799 on ebay real?

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