A question I'm uncomfortable asking.....

DoubleEagle59 · October 12, 2009 1:38PM

given the very unfortunate news of what's happened to Julian, I have to ask the following question.

In recent history, has there been a coin dealer that has been found guilty of setting up and robbing other coin dealers?

The reason I ask is - When very high end coins are stolen, it seems obvious to me that it involves a very 'educated' individual/s. Because:

1. it would have to be a well thought out robbery, involving know-how of how the coin shows work, high level of co-ordination and extreme detail in execution.

2. also, they would know what they were stealing and thereby know that it would be very difficult to unload.

This leads me to the conclusion that whoever is buying it from them must have a great deal of knowledge about numismatics. Either a dealer or a private collector.

Again, my question is - does anybody have any historical information of another dealer getting caught red handed doing this?

I don't mean to offend anyone, but Julian's situation just got me thinking, that's all.

Billet7 · October 12, 2009 1:43PM

Disturbing thoughts...I sure hope not!

curly · October 12, 2009 1:48PM

I suppose your question is good, brother, but your timing is insulting.

jesbroken · October 12, 2009 1:49PM

Their was a SoCal dealer that was arrested for stealing coins at a coin show if I remember right. Maybe Charmy would chip in, as I believe she knew about the issue.
Jim

pendragon1998 · October 12, 2009 2:00PM

Why would it have to be a dealer? I'd bet anyone here who has a post count over 500-1000 would have the necessary knowledge to know what to steal and what to ignore. The real question would be: who is buying the material? *

*I'm vaguely aware of a theft thread going on, but I haven't read it.

Unknown · October 12, 2009 3:11PM

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LotsoLuck · October 12, 2009 3:19PM

MidLifeCrisis · October 12, 2009 3:31PM

<< I suppose your question is good, brother, but your timing is insulting. >>

I gotta agree with Curly.

rld14 · October 12, 2009 3:36PM

First, let me say that I feel terrible for Julian. He's a great guy, a real asset to the hobby and his inventory is simply incredible.

That being said, it sort of boggles my mind why a thief would target his inventory, an awful lot of the high dollar items that he has are pretty esoteric. Personally, if I were a thief, I'd target a widget/bullion dealer.

For those of you who follow philately, it's sort of like the Ice House cover. Great, you stole it, now what the heck are you going to do with it?

northcoin · October 12, 2009 5:35PM

I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry.

Justacommeman · October 12, 2009 6:59PM

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

Probably true, but Julian is just such an icon and threads like this can get germy and tainted fast even with all good intentions. I know a lot of us are in shock and are hurting for him. I was through this once myself twenty years ago and the first 48 hours can be devasting especially if it involves your lifes work. I'm sure the poster had no ill intent. Just a very sensitive thread and hopefully we can just let it die here. MJ

JaPa · October 12, 2009 7:54PM

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

I would say the victim is questioned at length over such an issue in this economy and why would anyone consider the original question to be insulting?

ksteelheader · October 12, 2009 8:04PM

<< I suppose your question is good, brother, but your timing is insulting. >>

I differ with you. What's insulting? Unless you're a dealer!!

DoubleEagle59 · October 12, 2009 8:31PM

<< 

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

Probably true, but Julian is just such an icon and threads like this can get germy and tainted fast even with all good intentions. I know a lot of us are in shock and are hurting for him. I was through this once myself twenty years ago and the first 48 hours can be devasting especially if it involves your lifes work. I'm sure the poster had no ill intent. Just a very sensitive thread and hopefully we can just let it die here. MJ >>

I don't know if I'm 'reading' these two posts correctly, but I'm in NO WAY suggesting Julian had anything to do with this. That would be the ultimate insult and would warrant my banishment from this forum.

My main purpose of my original post has nothing to do with Julian's unfortunate situation. It just got me thinking about the entire scenario. I just wanted to know if anyone knew of any dealer/collector who in the past got convicted of such a crime.

Again, I apologise for the bad timing of my question. I should have waited a couple of weeks.

PerryHall · October 12, 2009 9:23PM

<< 

<< I suppose your question is good, brother, but your timing is insulting. >>

I differ with you. What's insulting? Unless you're a dealer!! >>

Agree. I'm sure most honest coin dealers will admit there are a few rotten apples in their profession.

Justacommeman · October 12, 2009 9:36PM

<< 

<< 

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

Probably true, but Julian is just such an icon and threads like this can get germy and tainted fast even with all good intentions. I know a lot of us are in shock and are hurting for him. I was through this once myself twenty years ago and the first 48 hours can be devasting especially if it involves your lifes work. I'm sure the poster had no ill intent. Just a very sensitive thread and hopefully we can just let it die here. MJ >>

I don't know if I'm 'reading' these two posts correctly, but I'm in NO WAY suggesting Julian had anything to do with this. That would be the ultimate insult and would warrant my banishment from this forum.

My main purpose of my original post has nothing to do with Julian's unfortunate situation. It just got me thinking about the entire scenario. I just wanted to know if anyone knew of any dealer/collector who in the past got convicted of such a crime.

Again, I apologise for the bad timing of my question. I should have waited a couple of weeks. >>

Regarding the thread-----It was only the timing of the scenerio presented that was brought into question . I know I read no ill intent . MJ

BAJJERFAN · October 12, 2009 10:15PM

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

How about instances where a dealer helps set himself up to make it look like he was robbed?

PTVETTER · October 12, 2009 11:16PM

There was an incident at coinfest last year where a number of large better notes were taken.
They showed up just west of Pittsburgh, where the dealer called the local police and they were aressted.
They were not dealers or collectors, just dirt bags.

These dirt bags appear to be smarter dirt bags, but dirt bags just the same.

TexasNationals · October 13, 2009 12:17AM

His question makes sense, I don't think it is insulting just a possiblity.

crazyhounddog · October 13, 2009 12:58AM

I am very sorry to hear about anyone getting robbed, it's horrible and although I have never met Julian I know he is a very respected man.
But why in the world would someone leave his whole inventory in his vehicle? Isn't that kinda asking for it? I mean I wound't even leave my coins locked in my car in front of the police station!

AU58WALKERS · October 13, 2009 1:06AM

<< I am very sorry to hear about anyone getting robbed, it's horrible and although I have never met Julian I know he is a very respected man.
But why in the world would someone leave his whole inventory in his vehicle? Isn't that kinda asking for it? I mean I wound't even leave my coins locked in my car in front of the police station! >>

wouldn't that be like leaving them in a cardboard box on a street corner all night?

moonshine · October 13, 2009 1:26AM

just my 2 cents -- I doubt it was another dealer -- more probably a dirt bag or dirt bag collector.

Also, not sure why anyone would leave coins like that unattended, either -- but I am sure he is kicking himself, so no sense in rubbing salt in wound -- unless he just went to go potty real quick. Still so, traveling alone? not smart -- traveling with someone/shoulda had a look out.

RYK · October 13, 2009 1:30AM

<< I am very sorry to hear about anyone getting robbed, it's horrible and although I have never met Julian I know he is a very respected man.
But why in the world would someone leave his whole inventory in his vehicle? Isn't that kinda asking for it? I mean I wound't even leave my coins locked in my car in front of the police station! >>

My guess is that while he (and others who have been in the same situation) knew the risks, he felt that he was sufficiently far from the show that it was exceedingly unlikely anything untoward would happen. He (and others) have probably done the same hundreds of times in the past.

RYK · October 13, 2009 1:31AM

<< 

<< I'm not sure why anyone feels your question's timing is insulting. Everyone starts out as "a person of interest" including the victim in the minds of law enforcement and the insurance industry. >>

How about instances where a dealer helps set himself up to make it look like he was robbed? >>

IIRC, and I may be completely wrong, wasn't there a dealer who was acused or caught doing such sometime over the last few years? Possibly loosely related to the Noe Ohio scandal?

OregonCityGold · October 13, 2009 6:57AM

IMHO, many owners of collectibles have staged thefts of their own property. Similarly, the most ideal buyer of stolen collectibles is the victim flush with insurance proceeds. The victim's emotional attachment to the objects is worth much more than their discounted value on the black market. I recall a few scams like this in 1980s-1990s Europe, with expensive paintings, not coins. If the theft was opportunistic thuggery, the items often show up quick but damaged. If the theft was professional, the items are often well cared for and stay hidden for decades until the scammer in possession gets dementia or until one of their unwitting heirs tries to sell the stolen Van Gogh. There's an early copper story in there somewhere.

Bear · October 13, 2009 8:02AM

It seems to me that a large group of expensive coins would

require being accompanied by a person, duly licensed to carry

a firearm. Such as an off duty policeman on vacation, or a private

detective. They would watch the table and travel with you until the

coins were secured in a safe location.

Of course a more novel security arrangement, would be to have three

wolf hybrid pets in the car . When you go to eat, let your hungry pets

know, that anyone strange entering the car, would be their dinner.

joebb21 · October 13, 2009 8:29AM

I thought I heard there was a dealer at a parsippany nj show that was caught in the last year... but I might just be mixing up stories...

MsMorrisine · October 13, 2009 8:58AM

<< 

1. it would have to be a well thought out robbery, involving know-how of how the coin shows work, high level of co-ordination and extreme detail in execution.

2. also, they would know what they were stealing and thereby know that it would be very difficult to unload. >>

1. ?? not really, follow target, wait until the person is away from the car and get the stuff.
2. the crooks may not be smart enough to know how much the high value ones are worth. Ignorance may give them away.

So, I guess another tip for catching the person or persons is trying to figure out which will be the hardest to value via online means, hoping an undervalued sale will be attempted.

Although if they are as lazy as many, any unique coin will hopefully turn up.

FullStepJeffs · October 13, 2009 12:55PM

<< It seems to me that a large group of expensive coins would

require being accompanied by a person, duly licensed to carry

a firearm. Such as an off duty policeman on vacation, or a private

detective. They would watch the table and travel with you until the

coins were secured in a safe location. >>

Have gun... will travel. I gotta go make a commercial.

Numismatic Security Services... when you absolutely want to keep your inventory safe.

Seriously... is there a job out there doing this type of work?

Because, for the right price and air fare for far away trips, I'm your huckleberry.

I'd even pro-rate for the amount of inventory involved.

Booking now... for all 2010 events.

Steve

barbershopper · October 13, 2009 1:41PM

After reading all the posts and their detractors, I believe all the scenarios presented are feasible.
Some more than others but none can be discounted off hand.
JMHO.

JT

pennyannie · October 13, 2009 4:05PM

15 or so years ago a coin dealer was killed in Pantego (arlington tx or close) I believe they finnaly caught the person that did it and it was another dealer.

You see on tv everyday where robberies and murders are committed by people in the so called circle of trust.

I know a few lawyers that say everytime there is a theft that results in a insurance claim there are actually 2. You have the actual theft and then the expanded overinflated list that get turned into the insurance company.

mrearlygold · October 13, 2009 4:16PM

You shouldn't feel uncomfortable about asking those kinds of questions. There's lowlifes in every field. A california dealer ( scumbag , you know who you are ) ripped me off last week to which he was just slapped good by my attorney and I may decide to send more pain his way as soon as we get finished doing our investigations.

Wasn't there a Texas telemarketer caught red handed ripping off Ed Lee, then Mike Fuljenz, then either one or more dealers?

A question I'm uncomfortable asking.....

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