MS66 FBL 1954-D Franklin bites the dust .....

PawPaul · September 22, 2009 9:16AM

....let me beat a dead horse,

several years ago I bought whats probably the finest PCGS MS66 FBL 1954-D Franklin there is ,from Tomaska for 3800$

(it now is in the #1 set of Ronyahski) . The PCGS Price guide has it at 1100$

Last night a decent one sold on Teletrade for 380$ ..........

anyone that thinks Franklins have not tanked and are headed lower is holding a roll with a few coins short

soty27 · September 22, 2009 9:18AM

I always love your franklin posts pawl

They are so up beat !!

I agree franklins seem to be in the tank but then again I think alot of other coins are as well.

kaz · September 22, 2009 9:26AM

I feel your pain!

keets · September 22, 2009 9:29AM

i don't think that an "adjustment" of prices is what's important regarding the end of of the 10 year party we've had, i think everyone knew that would happen. what i'm wondering about and waiting to see is how the new market that grows out of this slump reacts to all the garbage that's been slowly-but-surely added to the holder inserts over the years, especially during the last 3-4 years. there has been some very spirited discussion over the years about the up and down nature of how we judge the grading companies(undergrading/overgrading) and i expect all that to be the focal point when the economic slump ends and we start to see collectors buying like they used to.

how much will everyone care about the premiums for a strike designation??
how much will everyone care about the preimiums for all the Mint related designations??

mikeyg · September 22, 2009 9:31AM

sorry to hear it.Not a follower of FHDs I wouldnt know how the prices have moved on them.Thank you for sharing with us

pennyannie · September 22, 2009 9:38AM

That is one sad story. It is one thing for a 100k coin to lose 5k or even 10k but 3800 to 380 is down right sad. Across the board i suppose you could have bought a 100k set of Franklins a few years back and only be able to get 15k for it now?

What has killed these? The late date and to many around.

Mowgli · September 22, 2009 9:43AM

I think I have $340 "invested" in my entire MS 63 Franklin set. I'm guessing very few FBLs and no Registry set interest. I'm glad I was uncomfortable buying higher graded coins - but sorry for those how have suffered such price declines.

keets · September 22, 2009 9:46AM

the best way to go is to get in good standing with a B&M dealer, visit often and spend money while letting him know what you like. he will be a friend indeed and if you're patient you can build a nice set for little past multiples of melt.

CoinAuctionsHelp · September 22, 2009 9:56AM

This isn't about Franklins, but grading holders. The first two years of my websites existance, the TPGS picture guide home page was my number one page, but since the economic woes. It's now number 9 of my top 10 pages. It makes me wonder if people are not buying slabbed or high grade coins with their premiums. Another fact, I check Ebay Pulse once a month and for years PCGS was the number one searched keyword in coins. Now it's gold, and PCGS is no longer even in the top ten, and the ne top ten includes silver, platinum and World Gold coins.

So something tells me that people are buying more gold, and less high grade material, and it's not just the Franklins that are affected. Good thread subject.

pennyannie · September 22, 2009 10:03AM

A few weeks back i bought the last 20 dates for 7.50 each. The dealer let me go thru all the rolls they had and pick the ones i wanted. (it may have been 16 as i am to lazy to go and count them now.

I was just looking in the most recent coin world and R & I has a 1951 PR 66 deep cameo for the low price of 18k, a proof 65 cameo for 8500. Or you saying buyer beware or a grade or 2 lower will be cents on the dollar?

What would be the asking price of these 2 coins 3 years ago?

I guess there was no buy back on the 1954 D ?

Meltdown · September 22, 2009 10:06AM

As a collector with a longterm vision, I am pleased with the prices coming down to earth on my favorite series.
I've only been at Franklins the last 5 years or so, but have bought most of my very favorite pieces in the last few months.

7Jaguars · September 22, 2009 10:28AM

Have to give him credit for pumping up the market and making some bucks. Caveat emptor is no joke!

fc · September 22, 2009 10:39AM

franklins.. ah..

love he drama. keep up the interesting posts.

JCMhouston · September 22, 2009 10:58AM

<< What has killed these? The late date and to many around. >>

I used to have a few Franklins but traded them off a couple of years ago, prices got crazy. On top of mintages in the many millions you have the whole problem of defining what a full bell line looks like. I have 2 people I know that collect Frankies and they can't agree with each other, much less with one of the TPG's on what FBL should look like. One of the board members recently said he submitted a coin 5 or 6 times to PCGS until it got the FBL designation then it sold ofr over $20k, for a $100 coin the first 4 or 5 times it was submitted.

My personal opinion is it's just a typical over-hyped market, much like the early commems in the 90's. Most of those early commems still have not gotten back to where they were at the peak.

PawPaul · September 22, 2009 11:22AM

I enjoy reading your responses ,

and I think the T.T. piece actually sold although it could have been bought back outright by the consigner .

I saw a splendid PCGS Cameo 1967 MS66 penny sell yesterday on eBay for 94$ ?? I

think PCGS Price guide is @ 300$ in that grade ...........

So agreed , across almost the entire board the ship is slowly sinking and as Keets sez, it will be intresting to see

how it all plays out

.

Myself ? I think .

it would be neat if the bottom fell out completly and I could buy all the coins I ever wanted for a song

keets · September 22, 2009 12:24PM

So something tells me that people are buying more gold, and less high grade material, and it's not just the Franklins that are affected. Good thread subject.

this is a very true statement and we talk about it almost every day at the shop. we still sell collector coins and there are still regular customers and guys that are relative newcomers to us that spend hours at the shop and buy, but for the most part the last year has been driven by PM's.

PawPaul · September 23, 2009 11:16AM

......And a nice Franklin you have indeed !

I checked the last few Heritage '54-D's in PCGS 66 FBL and I did not see any selling for anything less then a little below 900$ ,

and although the T.T piece which is the topic of this post is not mind boggling - I have seen a few less attractive pieces I can assure you .

It is very hard to gauge the real appeal of the coin because T.T. 's pictures are so all over the board .....

But I think you would agree less then 400$ for one is a very low price indeed

LR · September 23, 2009 11:33AM

You already established my incompatence to overpay would you have any 1960+ in MS66

DennisH · September 23, 2009 11:38AM

<< You already established my incompatence to overpay would you have any 1960+ in MS66 >>

What?

MikeInFL · September 23, 2009 11:41AM

With all of you crying the blues (and rightfully so!) about the big dogs, let's temper these discussions with respect to the series as a whole. Some of the issues, particularly mid-grade FBL coins, have kept much if not all of their value. For instance, I have a number of 64 FBL coins (not the 52-s or 54-s), and they are going for roughly the same price they were when I purchased them about four years ago. So it's not all doom and gloom on these coins, at least where I play with them....Mike

bidask · September 23, 2009 12:00PM

I won this full lines at heritage recently. I paid $488. I thought that was a decent price.....I think like pop 122/3

1949 s obv

1949 s reverse

roadrunner · September 23, 2009 12:11PM

On many if not most FBL halves and Full Band dimes you have to squint or tilt the coin to try and see a split. I've never really understood it. And I rarely see a FBL half (other than 56's to 58's) that really have decent bell lines. Other than proofs, it's hard to find a really well struck band (other than common Philly mints) or bell line (later D mints). All manias eventually come to an end. My REG set is better than yours. RSI knew how to market that. The longer that TPG's grade coins, the bigger supply that exists. Yet the supply of collectors is not increasing but rather probably decreasing. And the amount of money available to buy them has just shrunk by trillions of dollars. Not just Franklins have been affected. I wonder how the NGC MS68 Wash. quarters are holding up after being into 5 figures a few years ago.

roadrunner

leothelyon · September 23, 2009 12:13PM

Quite a few pop top (so called FS) Jefferson nickels really took a beating in the last 2-3 years but all that was expected. Even when a lot of folks were posting the "don't do it Joe" threads, there was no-way to stop the carnage.

Leon

PawPaul · September 23, 2009 12:18PM

I do not own a single piece , 1960-1963 P or D mints , in PCGS MS66 ...........

SkyMan · September 23, 2009 2:32PM

You never can tell, recently all the ones that I want have seemed to be bid more than I've been willing to spend. Of course, I'm not looking for the top pop coins, but just seriously nice representatives for the given date/mm.

IrishMike · September 23, 2009 9:34PM

Seriously did you think Rick's prices would hold up over the long or medium run, with the vagaries in the coin market?

bidask · September 23, 2009 11:37PM

<< Seriously did you think Rick's prices would hold up over the long or medium run, with the vagaries in the coin market? >>

I think rick is a good marketer....his prices asked for his coins are not.

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 8:20AM

I think if you took Tomaska out of the equation prices would be even lower

Peaceman · September 24, 2009 8:23AM

Anyone who has money did it by going against the grain (coins, stock market, housing). It's sort of like runing toward someone who's firing a gun. If you can do that (buy all you can now), you'll be rewarded in a few years. It's funny how people think this will last (recession). Show me one that did.... forever....

fc · September 24, 2009 8:26AM

<< Anyone who has money did it by going against the grain (coins, stock market, housing). It's sort of like runing toward someone who's firing a gun. If you can do that (buy all you can now), you'll be rewarded in a few years. It's funny how people think this will last (recession). Show me one that did.... forever.... >>

i wonder if stamp collectors thought the same thing and realized
they really screwed up by thinking the hobby would rebound.

you compared coins to the stock market and housing. i consider neither
of those to be a hobby.

if you are 60 years old and coins take a decade slump which is possible..
just how long can you wait around for a rebound?

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 8:39AM

i thought 20 years ago when I started investing in Franklins I would build a nice little retirement egg -

20 years is a hellova long time to wait for a reward that never came and figures to never arrive .

Of course.........Tomaska has his own little pricing world in Franklins .........

he has the following for sale :

1953-P MS65 $750

1955-P MS65FBL $900

1957-P MS65FBL $450

1958-D MS65FBL $650

he contends if you buy the best you might be handsomely rewarded; would be interesting to track the 4 above and see what 10 years will produce

Peaceman · September 24, 2009 8:54AM

I'll TTT this in 5 years...

SanctionII · September 24, 2009 9:07AM

I collect Franklins, both MS and proof, all raw.

I have a blast white MS set in a black Capital Holder I bought about 10 years ago for a whopping $250.00. I have upgraded a few of the coins, but on the whole, the blast white look on MS Franklins does not do it for me [of course most coins in the set are in the lower MS range, with only a few coins (1954D, 1958D and 1959P which is proof like in appearance) float my boat with eye appeal]. I have a few pre 1959 mint sets with toned MS Frankies. Some of the toned Frankies are very nice. However, on the hole I have not gotten into MS Franklins very much. If I did, I would probably copy Skyman and go for a set of MS Franklins with beautiful toning, but not at Top Pop grades [his toned Frankies are to die for

]

I prefer the 1950-1963 proof Franklins [16 coins total if you count the 1956 Type 1 and the 1961 DDR varieties in the set], but they must have Cameo contrast [DCAM contrast is even better]. I have looked for these Cameo proofs in raw sets and singles at shows and at B&M Shops over the years. It is very time consuming and tedious, but if you like the "thrill of the hunt" it is worthwhile. Finding such a coin is a kick and many time you can buy the coin or the set the coin is contained in for "bid".

Can't do much better than that. The money spent to acquire a Cameo or DCAM proof this way is not something that will put you in the poor house.

I marvel at the MS and Proof Franklins that R&I Coins sells and drool over the R&I display cases at shows. However, paying top dollar for these coins has never clicked for me, in large part due to the potential loss that can be suffered when the market falls out [which it inevitably does].

It is more fun to collect on a shoe string budget and dig through the muck and mire to find a lost cost gem of a coin that is fun to look at and that will cause your collecting buddies to give you a "You Suck" when you engage in show and tell.

I have money tied up in Frankies, but not very much. If I have to sell I might break even, however if I take a loss it will not be a big one. And I do not plan to sell my best Cameo proof Frankies anyway because they are just to pretty to look at.

golfer72 · September 24, 2009 10:24AM

I also like the Proof Franklins. Just need the 1950 for the complete date set. Very few non proofs have a decent enough strike for me. The Franklin is a very nice coin when fully struck. And i dont mean FBL's either. FBL coins many times are mushy strikes anyway. The Proofs are all struck well. I like to be able to read "Pass and Stow" on the bell.

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 10:31AM

I like the cameo's too......... but my heart is in the Mint State stuff.........

I have spent many, many, thousands of dollars with R & I Coins , and I do not believe I lost much (if any) when I sold them .

But it seems to me Rick has placed such massive premiums on his best Franklins now that I can no longer pony up .

He had a 1954 in PCGS MS66 FBL a year ago- and he wanted a whopping $7500.00 for it .

You can buy a very nice example for under $1000 today..........

I asked him :

"would I rather have 7 or 8 of them or his ONE ? " .......he did not answer

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 10:33AM

<< With all of you crying the blues (and rightfully so!) about the big dogs, let's temper these discussions with respect to the series as a whole. Some of the issues, particularly mid-grade FBL coins, have kept much if not all of their value. For instance, I have a number of 64 FBL coins (not the 52-s or 54-s), and they are going for roughly the same price they were when I purchased them about four years ago. So it's not all doom and gloom on these coins, at least where I play with them....Mike >>

Mike - have you tried selling any of your FBL MS64's ?

Heck- for all I know , maybe thats the grade to get

bidask · September 24, 2009 10:35AM

What are Rick's buy prices for nice similar frankies offered him relative to his ask prices.....anyone know?

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 10:46AM

thats a huge can of worms ...........

he will buy amazing coins for top dollar -

he will buy back coins that he knows are practically irreplaceable-

he will buy if he has a want list to fill -

and he will buy very low pop's in ultra high grade-

but he is not known for an active two way market

PawPaul · September 24, 2009 10:47AM

<< I won this full lines at heritage recently. I paid $488. I thought that was a decent price.....I think like pop 122/3

1949 s obv

1949 s reverse >>

............thats about as cheap as they go for - ,at least a nice one like you got there !

MS66 FBL 1954-D Franklin bites the dust .....

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