"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
>>
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
>>
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
i thought it was parody but after rereading it again it sounds more like truth and how people justify shake and bake in their minds.
this problem is not going away and it will only get worse. too much money in this hobby for it to go away on its own.
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
>>
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
i thought it was parody but after rereading it again it sounds more like truth and how people justify shake and bake in their minds.
this problem is not going away and it will only get worse. too much money in this hobby for it to go away on its own. >>
Apparently a few on this thread have not seen or do not remember a certain motion picture.
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
>>
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I guess I missed the shot of the coin before being 'played' with
a picture of a nicely toned raw coin and the same coin in a PCGS doesn't convince me anyone colored it >>
There are probably 15 pages of info on this subject across 3 different forums.....seeing a picture alone should not be the deciding factor here and there is no before coin....these coins were all raw before they were AT'd. What myself and others contend based on a mountain of evidence is that a doctor has been at work selling toned coins with almost identical toning across all dates, & denominations to collectors and dealers alike. Some knew what they were buying and some probably didn't.....you can decide for yourself who knew The TPGs have been alerted, and examples supplied to them.....where we go from here is out of my hands.
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
>>
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
I've seen the movie way too many times (thanks to TNT reruns). So yep, I know it's a parody.
<< <i>There are probably 15 pages of info on this subject across 3 different forums.....seeing a picture alone should not be the deciding factor here and there is no before coin....these coins were all raw before they were AT'd. What myself and others contend based on a mountain of evidence is that a doctor has been at work selling toned coins with almost identical toning across all dates, & denominations to collectors and dealers alike. Some knew what they were buying and some probably didn't.....you can decide for yourself who knew The TPGs have been alerted, and examples supplied to them.....where we go from here is out of my hands. >>
I'm actually taking an interest in this whole thing... perhaps I need a life.
There are indeed 15 pages... of what look to be mostly unsubstantiated opinion and innuendo with a sprinkling of fact, by basically the same few people... who, for all we outsiders know, might have some axe to grind with the two people accused of wrongdoing. Krypto, don't take it personally, but I've seen things like this before so I tend to be skeptical when they arise. Anyone can start multiple threads about something...that doesn't necessarily make it fact. As said, these are only contentions, and copying and pasting pics of similarly toned coins, along with accusations and copies of private messages with ambiguous statements hardly qualifies as a "mountain of evidence" in my opinion. Not to mention the fact that the TPGs are slabbing many of the coins. "Color" me still unconvinced.
<< <i>For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you >>
To try and take any ambiguity out of it, has anyone asked Tonedcointrader what he meant by his PM?
Because I must admit this isn't the "smoking gun" I was expecting...Mike >>
Mike, Do you really expect him to come on here and be honest about his transgressions? In light of what has already been posted.....I think the PM's speak for themselves....I also think this is as close to damning prrof as you will find becuase he is not going to go out on a limb and be honest. At least with manofcoins we had the before and after pictures of slabbed coins that were AT'd in the holder......we are not going to have that in this case because these were raw coins purchased by Alex and cooked up. >>
Perhaps not, but as they say there are always two sides to every story and in fairness we should at least ask. The way I read things, he clearly lied about being "taken advantage of" as evidenced by the PMs, the rest of your conclusions (concerning Alex being the Dr.) seem to be a bit hasty. Again, I tend to interpret things the way you have, but I would at least like to hear the other side to the story....Mike >>
For those following this discussion, I found this quote rather interesting, because I found that phrase "real good doctor" to be the foundation of the questioning of his knowledge/belief that the coins were doctored.
Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through. >>
Whew, I'm glad his ethics and good name have been restored...
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning.
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning. >>
It would seem that there is an opportunity for some enterprising expert with the nads er/ah means to start a review service designating AT/NT certified coins ala CAC. It might be even more valuable on raw toners that one is contemplating submitting. One has to admit that many of the mooses/meese coins posted by the high roller collectors seem almost too good to be true or the images are highly juiced.
<< <i>Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through. >>
Whew, I'm glad his ethics and good name have been restored... >>
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning. >>
Your not making any sense now >>
If someone with the right education and setup could get themselves a tank of hydrogen sulfide (which is the primary gas involved in natural toning) or a similar gas, then you could greatly accelerate the toning process while keeping it chemically similar to NT.
Superior Galleries of Beverly Hills was selected to auction the Battle Creek Collection. The coins were sold in a series of four auctions in 2005 and early 2006.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
p.s. it is worth noting that in the original BC hoard, there were nine (9) 1904-o's including 7 that were awarded the "*" designation -- the same date that is the subject of this firestorm. I wonder if these coins are pictured anywhere, and if by any strange coincidence this coin was actually from the BC hoard.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on.
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on. >>
Yes, I never heard of this either. Bear, if you can cite any examples, please do.
There were numerous "lesser" toners and many white coins in the BC hoard as well, so chances are the hoard is legit. Supposedly there were eyewitnesses to the opening of the bags, which supposedly were previously mint sealed.
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on. >>
Yes, I never heard of this either. Bear, if you can cite any examples, please do.
There were numerous "lesser" toners and many white coins in the BC hoard as well, so chances are the hoard is legit. Supposedly there were eyewitnesses to the opening of the bags, which supposedly were previously mint sealed. >>
Board member RYK has intimated here that his BC Morgan is actually fading in color intensity.
I have 2 toned Morgan dollars. I believe this to be an authentic bag toned Morgan. I originally purchased this coin in an ICG64 holder about 3 years ago. I cracked it submitted it to NGC and it came back a 64*. Looking at this coin and a few of the coins posted right before this coin, I have to say, I would question the toning on those coins.
I recently purchased this coin with an old 1980's grading photo card. It's graded MS65. The photos show the toning, and it has been stable for the better part of 25 years at least. That would lead me to believe that this coin is NT, but in today's environment, I'm not so sure it would slab.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
And one 1904-O belonging to Toneddollars. I can't remember if this was a BC.
>>
Yes, those are 2 of my 3 1904-O BC's, here is my 3rd one:
Looking at the BC catalogue's, Jack's '04-O is also a BC coin.
I've heard a lot of tripe about the color fading on the BC coins. From the best of my memory it was one or two people talking about color fading, with, how shall I put this, less than top of the line coins that they had no before and after pictures of... and then the Board, in it's infinite wisdom, took off with the story. IMO the vast majority of the BC coins were nothing special and should never have been starred in the first place. Someone expecting a vibrant color on their mediocre BC coins would likely not see anything particularly special about the coin and could think that the color had faded.
I have a variety of images of my BC coins via multiple photographers, and I have a memory that is pretty darn good for patterns and nuances (after all, my Ph.D. is in interpreting satellite imagery). I own a wide variety of BC coins, and each of them is as vibrant today as when I first laid eyes upon them. Thanks to Sunnywood we also have the full story of BC coins out on the NGC website nowadays.
Relicsincoins, That 82' is the real deal. That is the toning colors I saw 20 years ago at coin shows and those are the only type toning I buy, and yes I have a few Battle Creek coin too.
BUT the colors showing up in the past few years.................BE CAREFUL........
These coins did NOT exist twenty years back at the Hundreds of dealers tables I looked at back THEN.
<< <i>Very important thread imho, if everyone who bought toned coins assumed at until proven otherwise that would kill the coin doctor's bus forthright and if no one paid a premium for toning they would be gone. Think of it this way blast white is a toned coin dipped hopefully correctly, nt is undipped, why pay a premium for one over the other, if no one pays the piper the piper can't get paid, I believe in being proactive, stop paying any premium for toned coins and the doctors will be hurt, and then stop buying toned coins that look to have been upgraded because the doctors tried to hide the flaws. If we control ourselves the doctors will vanish. >>
Why not take it a step further: Everyone just STOP collecting coins as this is the only way to defeat the counterfeiters...
<< <i>Very important thread imho, if everyone who bought toned coins assumed at until proven otherwise that would kill the coin doctor's bus forthright and if no one paid a premium for toning they would be gone. Think of it this way blast white is a toned coin dipped hopefully correctly, nt is undipped, why pay a premium for one over the other, if no one pays the piper the piper can't get paid, I believe in being proactive, stop paying any premium for toned coins and the doctors will be hurt, and then stop buying toned coins that look to have been upgraded because the doctors tried to hide the flaws. If we control ourselves the doctors will vanish. >>
Why not take it a step further: Everyone just STOP collecting coins as this is the only way to defeat the counterfeiters... >>
Or perhaps at least stop collecting the coins that look way too good to be true! Especially so many of these wildly toned Morgans that seem to be more plentiful than salt in the ocean.
For the record....I don't believe the battle creek coins are AT as we know where they came from.....
I do believe that a few of the battle creek pieces may have been templates so to speak for some of the AT morgans the doctors have been cooking up which is why I have been discussing this issue across all forums over the past few weeks.
This still comes down to collect what you like but.....know what you are buying. If you like AT coins and you know that's what you are buying...no problem. If you are shelling out multiples for rainbow toned coins....you better be comfortable that they are real or you could be in for a rude awakening. Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out.....
<< <i>For the record....I don't believe the battle creek coins are AT as we know where they came from.....
I do believe that a few of the battle creek pieces may have been templates so to speak for some of the AT morgans the doctors have been cooking up which is why I have been discussing this issue across all forums over the past few weeks.
This still comes down to collect what you like but.....know what you are buying. If you like AT coins and you know that's what you are buying...no problem. If you are shelling out multiples for rainbow toned coins....you better be comfortable that they are real or you could be in for a rude awakening. Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out..... >>
Even though my own personal confidence in the Battle Creek Morgans is shot, I certainly do agree with this way of thinking and I think it is right on point.
<< <i>Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out..... >>
Interesting statement coming from someone who's been more than willing to condemn every toned coin belonging to a couple particular toned coin dealers...
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
i thought it was parody but after rereading it again it sounds more like truth
and how people justify shake and bake in their minds.
this problem is not going away and it will only get worse. too much money
in this hobby for it to go away on its own.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
i thought it was parody but after rereading it again it sounds more like truth
and how people justify shake and bake in their minds.
this problem is not going away and it will only get worse. too much money
in this hobby for it to go away on its own. >>
Apparently a few on this thread have not seen or do not remember a certain motion picture.
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
Apparently a few on this thread have not seen or do not remember a certain motion picture. >>
it does not ring a bell with me. can you state the movie?
YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH.
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Jack Nicholson to Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men" (1992). >>
yea i thought that was it. i just have not seen in it years and years.
i only remember that one line.
Thank you for the info Krypto. Greed corrupts most men given the opportunity.
a picture of a nicely toned raw coin and the same coin in a PCGS doesn't convince me anyone colored it
<< <i>I guess I missed the shot of the coin before being 'played' with
a picture of a nicely toned raw coin and the same coin in a PCGS doesn't convince me anyone colored it >>
There are probably 15 pages of info on this subject across 3 different forums.....seeing a picture alone should not be the deciding factor here and there is no before coin....these coins were all raw before they were AT'd. What myself and others contend based on a mountain of evidence is that a doctor has been at work selling toned coins with almost identical toning across all dates, & denominations to collectors and dealers alike. Some knew what they were buying and some probably didn't.....you can decide for yourself who knew
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin doctor's response:
"Son, we live in a world that has coins and those coins need to be doctored by men with chemicals. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Kryptonitecomics? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for doctored coins and curse the coin doctors; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that coin doctoring , while tragic, probably makes money and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes money. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me in that basement, you need me in that basement. We use words like sulfur, gas, and color. We use them as the backbone of a life trying to color something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who buys and enjoys toned coins and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a coin and doctor it. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entilted to."
THAT was an amazing post. >>
I hope you realize it was a parody. >>
I've seen the movie way too many times (thanks to TNT reruns). So yep, I know it's a parody.
<< <i>There are probably 15 pages of info on this subject across 3 different forums.....seeing a picture alone should not be the deciding factor here and there is no before coin....these coins were all raw before they were AT'd. What myself and others contend based on a mountain of evidence is that a doctor has been at work selling toned coins with almost identical toning across all dates, & denominations to collectors and dealers alike. Some knew what they were buying and some probably didn't.....you can decide for yourself who knew
I'm actually taking an interest in this whole thing... perhaps I need a life.
There are indeed 15 pages... of what look to be mostly unsubstantiated opinion and innuendo with a sprinkling of fact, by basically the same few people... who, for all we outsiders know, might have some axe to grind with the two people accused of wrongdoing. Krypto, don't take it personally, but I've seen things like this before so I tend to be skeptical when they arise. Anyone can start multiple threads about something...that doesn't necessarily make it fact. As said, these are only contentions, and copying and pasting pics of similarly toned coins, along with accusations and copies of private messages with ambiguous statements hardly qualifies as a "mountain of evidence" in my opinion. Not to mention the fact that the TPGs are slabbing many of the coins. "Color" me still unconvinced.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For those that aren't reading into it what I and a lot of others are....please by all means continue to purchase toned coins with this similar look.....I promise I won't try to stop you
To try and take any ambiguity out of it, has anyone asked Tonedcointrader what he meant by his PM?
Because I must admit this isn't the "smoking gun" I was expecting...Mike >>
Mike, Do you really expect him to come on here and be honest about his transgressions? In light of what has already been posted.....I think the PM's speak for themselves....I also think this is as close to damning prrof as you will find becuase he is not going to go out on a limb and be honest. At least with manofcoins we had the before and after pictures of slabbed coins that were AT'd in the holder......we are not going to have that in this case because these were raw coins purchased by Alex and cooked up. >>
Perhaps not, but as they say there are always two sides to every story and in fairness we should at least ask. The way I read things, he clearly lied about being "taken advantage of" as evidenced by the PMs, the rest of your conclusions (concerning Alex being the Dr.) seem to be a bit hasty. Again, I tend to interpret things the way you have, but I would at least like to hear the other side to the story....Mike >>
The plot thickens....
Tonedcointrader (Scott) has responded in A New TCCS Thread.
For those following this discussion, I found this quote rather interesting, because I found that phrase "real good doctor" to be the foundation of the questioning of his knowledge/belief that the coins were doctored.
Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through.
<< <i>Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through. >>
Whew, I'm glad his ethics and good name have been restored...
<< <i>
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning. >>
Your not making any sense now
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, I told Chris I thought he might be a "real good doctor" Why? Because I wanted him to pass on the coins so I could buy them because I really liked them and thought they were NT! PCGS agreed with them being NT and graded them first time through. >>
Whew, I'm glad his ethics and good name have been restored...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>All I see is a crayola colors Morgan that slipped by the graders that I would never buy regardless. >>
I totally agree.
I love toned coins, but ORIGINALLY toned coins.
I would never buy something like this. >>
Familiarize yourself with heavily bag toned morgans. The color is identical to the real thing, probably because someone used the same chemicals that cause natural toning. >>
Your not making any sense now
If someone with the right education and setup could get themselves a tank of hydrogen sulfide (which is the primary gas involved in natural toning) or a similar gas, then you could greatly accelerate the toning process while keeping it chemically similar to NT.
Camelot
Camelot
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Just out of curiosity, when did the Battle Creek hoard surface? >>
2005...
NGC Certifies the Battle Creek Collection
Superior Galleries of Beverly Hills was selected to auction the Battle Creek Collection. The coins were sold in a series of four auctions in 2005 and early 2006.
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel.
Camelot
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on.
<< <i>
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on. >>
Yes, I never heard of this either. Bear, if you can cite any examples, please do.
There were numerous "lesser" toners and many white coins in the BC hoard as well, so chances are the hoard is legit. Supposedly there were eyewitnesses to the opening of the bags, which supposedly were previously mint sealed.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Around 5-6 years ago. A number of the toned coins from the bag
have since turned a muddy brown color. There have been
unsubstantiated rumors swirled about the hoard almost from the beginning,
that all of the toned coins were not NT. However, in spite of a number
of accusations and strenuous denials, the matter has seemed to died
down.Thus in the end, money was made, money was lost and BS abounded,
but no light appeared at the end of the tunnel. >>
As I recall nobody had any before and after photos of any BC coins "turning." It was just a couple casual remarks by people saying their BC coins didn't seem as vibrant as when they bought them, which is definitely a shaky foundation to build an argument on. >>
Yes, I never heard of this either. Bear, if you can cite any examples, please do.
There were numerous "lesser" toners and many white coins in the BC hoard as well, so chances are the hoard is legit. Supposedly there were eyewitnesses to the opening of the bags, which supposedly were previously mint sealed. >>
Board member RYK has intimated here that his BC Morgan is actually fading in color intensity.
And one 1904-O belonging to Toneddollars. I can't remember if this was a BC.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I recently purchased this coin with an old 1980's grading photo card. It's graded MS65. The photos show the toning, and it has been stable for the better part of 25 years at least. That would lead me to believe that this coin is NT, but in today's environment, I'm not so sure it would slab.
<< <i>Here are two of SkyMan's BC's
And one 1904-O belonging to Toneddollars. I can't remember if this was a BC.
Yes, those are 2 of my 3 1904-O BC's, here is my 3rd one:
Looking at the BC catalogue's, Jack's '04-O is also a BC coin.
I've heard a lot of tripe about the color fading on the BC coins. From the best of my memory it was one or two people talking about color fading, with, how shall I put this, less than top of the line coins that they had no before and after pictures of... and then the Board, in it's infinite wisdom, took off with the story. IMO the vast majority of the BC coins were nothing special and should never have been starred in the first place. Someone expecting a vibrant color on their mediocre BC coins would likely not see anything particularly special about the coin and could think that the color had faded.
I have a variety of images of my BC coins via multiple photographers, and I have a memory that is pretty darn good for patterns and nuances (after all, my Ph.D. is in interpreting satellite imagery). I own a wide variety of BC coins, and each of them is as vibrant today as when I first laid eyes upon them. Thanks to Sunnywood we also have the full story of BC coins out on the NGC website nowadays.
U.S. Type Set
That 82' is the real deal. That is the toning colors I saw 20 years ago at coin shows
and those are the only type toning I buy, and yes I have a few Battle Creek coin too.
BUT the colors showing up in the past few years.................BE CAREFUL........
These coins did NOT exist twenty years back at the Hundreds of dealers tables I looked at back THEN.
PCGS & NGC you show know better!
100% Positive BST transactions
All I can say now is, THANK GOODNESS I DID NOT!!!
<< <i>Very important thread imho, if everyone who bought toned coins assumed at until proven otherwise that would kill the coin doctor's bus forthright and if no one paid a premium for toning they would be gone. Think of it this way blast white is a toned coin dipped hopefully correctly, nt is undipped, why pay a premium for one over the other, if no one pays the piper the piper can't get paid, I believe in being proactive, stop paying any premium for toned coins and the doctors will be hurt, and then stop buying toned coins that look to have been upgraded because the doctors tried to hide the flaws. If we control ourselves the doctors will vanish. >>
Why not take it a step further: Everyone just STOP collecting coins as this is the only way to defeat the counterfeiters...
<< <i>
<< <i>Very important thread imho, if everyone who bought toned coins assumed at until proven otherwise that would kill the coin doctor's bus forthright and if no one paid a premium for toning they would be gone. Think of it this way blast white is a toned coin dipped hopefully correctly, nt is undipped, why pay a premium for one over the other, if no one pays the piper the piper can't get paid, I believe in being proactive, stop paying any premium for toned coins and the doctors will be hurt, and then stop buying toned coins that look to have been upgraded because the doctors tried to hide the flaws. If we control ourselves the doctors will vanish. >>
Why not take it a step further: Everyone just STOP collecting coins as this is the only way to defeat the counterfeiters...
Or perhaps at least stop collecting the coins that look way too good to be true! Especially so many of these wildly toned Morgans that seem to be more plentiful than salt in the ocean.
<< <i>
>>
Hmm, it appears there actually are some 04-O Morgans with color comparable to the pieces discussed in the OP.
<< <i>I rather have an original neutral colored naturally toned coin that a vibrant colorful mind blowing one, but that is just me. >>
I'd rather have Sunnywood's Morgan collection, but that's just me...
I do believe that a few of the battle creek pieces may have been templates so to speak for some of the AT morgans the doctors have been cooking up which is why I have been discussing this issue across all forums over the past few weeks.
This still comes down to collect what you like but.....know what you are buying. If you like AT coins and you know that's what you are buying...no problem. If you are shelling out multiples for rainbow toned coins....you better be comfortable that they are real or you could be in for a rude awakening. Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out.....
<< <i>For the record....I don't believe the battle creek coins are AT as we know where they came from.....
I do believe that a few of the battle creek pieces may have been templates so to speak for some of the AT morgans the doctors have been cooking up which is why I have been discussing this issue across all forums over the past few weeks.
This still comes down to collect what you like but.....know what you are buying. If you like AT coins and you know that's what you are buying...no problem. If you are shelling out multiples for rainbow toned coins....you better be comfortable that they are real or you could be in for a rude awakening. Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out.....
Even though my own personal confidence in the Battle Creek Morgans is shot, I certainly do agree with this way of thinking and I think it is right on point.
<< <i>Buyer beware but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and condemn every toned coin from here on out.....
Interesting statement coming from someone who's been more than willing to condemn every toned coin belonging to a couple particular toned coin dealers...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The name is LEE!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment