first bad experience at parsippany show with a dealer-

joebb21 · September 7, 2009 11:52AM

interesting experience I had at the show. I was showing around a common 1927 ms66 $20 st. and went to one specific dealer whom I had sold one gold coin to before so I figured lets try again. I had paid $3105 for the coin months back and knew that I would be taking a loss on the coin-but hey-you got to cut your losses sometimes.
after showing him the coin he offers me $2950 for it. bid on the coin was $3050. I told him what I had paid on the piece and that I wasnt willing to take less than $3,000 for it.
he said "thank you" but he wouldnt pay more.

no problem-

I then ask if he has any proof franklin rattler pieces (as many know Im trying to finish my set). He replies that he actually has the entire set in rattlers!

I become very excited and ask him to see it! he replies that the coins are "already being sold to another customer".

ok I say- can I meet your customer so that can make an offer to him?

no he replies- "IF YOU ARENT WILLING TO HELP ME AND SELL FOR $50 LESS ON A $3000 COIN THEN I AM NOT WILLING TO HELP YOU. THANK YOU AND GOOD DAY"

Im looking at him shocked that he would say something so unproffesional as well as something in my opinion so mean.

I try explaining that Im not willing to take such a loss....

"HAVE A GOOD DAY AND THANK YOU" he replies.

man what a #$%^&

anyway. I know better now. never ever do business with him again

ps- personally I beleive he was lying about the franklins...thats just my opinion
pps- I did end up getting the $3,000 from another dealer...

but geezzz...

I wonder if hes on these boards....

Bear · September 7, 2009 11:54AM

We do not allow mean old geezers on this board.......except me!

COALPORTER · September 7, 2009 11:58AM

Name names !
I'd like to know a dealer that works for 3%.

braddick · September 7, 2009 12:00PM

It sounds, the way you lay it out, he was was direct in his bad news to you.
Outside of that? I don't see where he came off as a douche.

ScarsdaleCoin · September 7, 2009 12:03PM

Many times dealers are grumpy because we have to wake up 4am 5am to travel to the show... not an excuse but it is hard to be nice and friendly when your stressed and tired

Bayard1908 · September 7, 2009 12:04PM

He did not have the Franklins. He was just trying to jerk you around. When you called him on his lie by asking about the customer, he became belligerent to keep from having the lie exposed.

TomB · September 7, 2009 12:08PM

My first impression is that the story about the rattler Franklin set was false and simply told to you for I don't know what reason. The initial offer on the coin did not seem horrible, but you have a right to shop the coin around for a better deal.

BBN · September 7, 2009 12:08PM

Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something

fcloud · September 7, 2009 12:10PM

It takes two to tango as they say. You will probaly skip that dealer's table in the future.

MsMorrisine · September 7, 2009 12:11PM

some act like customers are wasting their time.

if he doesn't want to help you out over $50, then fine. he can say the same thing but explain it in a nice way.

Hyperion · September 7, 2009 12:16PM

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

gritty people! for the most part.... if you're not in the landed gentry (with a big cushion for mistakes), you're in the shark tank, trying to make a living in numismatics. it's easy to crit dealers, and I'm sure there are plenty of jaded ones out there (lord knows, I've been in the hobby only a few years and I've seen 'em), but if you constantly had to live by your wits and everyone you dealt with had "an angle" I'm not sure how long it'd take for your normal good nature to burn away in the heat...

personally, I think that's why the graceful, genuinely genteel types burn so brightly.

wow. Im pretty poetic tonight. alliteration and everything!!!

brokeer · September 7, 2009 12:17PM

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

Majority of dealers at shows?

blu62vette · September 7, 2009 12:20PM

<< 

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

Majority of dealers at shows? >>

Not majority but they are out there. With the number of tire kickers that come by I understand why they can be short, but still think trying to remain nice and positive would benefit their own sales. I know how long those days are but if you don't enjoy it find something else.

Bear · September 7, 2009 12:21PM

As Mrs Bear says:

"Sometimes I wake up grumpy

and sometimes I just let him sleep".

illini420 · September 7, 2009 12:25PM

<< 

<< 

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

Majority of dealers at shows? >>

Not majority but they are out there. With the number of tire kickers that come by I understand why they can be short, but still think trying to remain nice and positive would benefit their own sales. I know how long those days are but if you don't enjoy it find something else. >>

Could just as easily say that the tire kicker in this situation was the dealer by asking for an extra $50. I can't tell you how many times I've given a dealer a price on a coin, yet they attempt to tire kick another $5 or $10 out of me on a $500 or so coin.

In any event, this dealer sounds like a grade A jerk!!

ColonialCoinUnion · September 7, 2009 12:26PM

Plenty of other dealers to deal with.

joebb21 · September 7, 2009 12:29PM

in defense to parsippany- I love the show and try to attend every month. just as a personal shout out- always enjoy a chat with jon and moish from scarsdale- larry from sea eagle and have done lots of pleasant business with ken (f)agone. just three names out of some great nice people there. (also oreville is a great friendly face to see at any show) its good guys like them that make this hobby more fun

abitofthisabitofthat · September 7, 2009 12:31PM

<< in defense to parsippany- I love the show and try to attend every month. just as a personal shout out- always enjoy a chat with jon and moish from scarsdale- larry from sea eagle and have done lots of pleasant business with ken (f)agone. just three names out of some great nice people there. (also oreville is a great friendly face to see at any show) its good guys like them that make this hobby more fun >>

A shout out for Tom Hyland also. He is always there, and is a true gentleman, IMO.

edit: spelling, what else?

keets · September 7, 2009 12:35PM

let's do a little math here. without knowing the "Ask" for your coin i'll just imagine that it's $3,200. with that in mind i don't think it's unreasonable for a dealer to offer you 15% back which is $2,720. with that in mind i don't think his offer of $2,950 was bad or out of line. my boss typically buys at 15% back of bid and sells at bid. though my over-the-counter and show experience is limited i can tell you one thing: when an honest and reasonable offer is made it can be very irritating when a seller "begs" for more and uses time that can be spent on another transaction. the best thing to do is to make an offer, accept/decline the dealer's offer and then move on.

i will also say that it is a display of poor etiquette on your part to be at a dealers table asking for the name of another customer, expecting the dealer to broker a sale on an item he's sold. perhaps he wasn't very tactful in how he declined to help you, but i'd bet most dealers wouldn't have helped you out like that unless you were a "regular" that they knew well.

a real life example that happened a few weeks ago........................a regular customer came to the shop and had "another guy" with him. while they were standing around, a third guy came in with some stuff and offered it to us. we offered, he delined and left the shop. as he was leaving the "other guy" expressed an interest in his stuff, walked out with him and made a deal in the parking lot. needless to say, my boss was a bit mad and chastised the guy who brought him. the "other guy" came to our table at a show on Sunday with some stuff to sell: my boss tersely said "Not interested" and turned away from him.

there's a right way and a wrong way to conduct business. perhaps you should talk to some other collectors or dealers to get an idea of what you should/shouldn't do and what kind of things irritate dealers at shows and in their shops.

itsnotjustme · September 7, 2009 12:40PM

"I don't see where he came off as a douche." I guess for me it was when he lied about the Frnaklins. I fully respect the right of either party to walk away from a deal, but no need to lie. I don't believe for a moment that the dealer thinks a seller needs to take their offer.

WTCG · September 7, 2009 12:42PM

<< let's do a little math here. without knowing the "Ask" for your coin i'll just imagine that it's $3,200. with that in mind i don't think it's unreasonable for a dealer to offer you 15% back which is $2,720. with that in mind i don't think his offer of $2,950 was bad or out of line. my boss typically buys at 15% back of bid and sells at bid. though my over-the-counter and show experience is limited i can tell you one thing: when an honest and reasonable offer is made it can be very irritating when a seller "begs" for more and uses time that can be spent on another transaction. the best thing to do is to make an offer, accept/decline the dealer's offer and then move on.

i will also say that it is a display of poor etiquette on your part to be at a dealers table asking for the name of another customer, expecting the dealer to broker a sale on an item he's sold. perhaps he wasn't very tactful in how he declined to help you, but i'd bet most dealers wouldn't have helped you out like that unless you were a "regular" that they knew well.
. >>

My sentiments on the matter as well. The dealer could have responded in a friendlier manner but he was under no obligation to provide you with his customer's information.

keets · September 7, 2009 12:59PM

also, i think it's a bit irresponsible for members to assume that the dealer lied when he mentioned the Franklins. that is based on nothing factual.

Bear · September 7, 2009 1:08PM

I have found that honorable people remember what they

think was said. Memory and preconceived ideas tend to

fashion a reality that may be at odds with what was said

as well as how it was said. In adjudicating conflicts between

two people, we find truth is an idealized concept. We must

recreate truth ,thru careful questioning and the ability to draw

upon experience and patience to fit the pieces of the puzzle

together.

SeaEagleCoins · September 7, 2009 1:08PM

Sorry to hear about your experience, Joe...I know from my experience that you are a respectful and fair person to to business with...

I frankly doubt the story about the Franklin rattler set... but aside from that... my experience with Parsippany was a bit bumpy in the beginning...

I began as a collector...walking the aisles...did alot of buying... then did some selling and learned quite alot... and found out who was fair who was a shyster... far too many shysters in this business IMHO... but with patience I learned who was cool and who to avoid... thankfully, there are plenty of good folks around, as well...

...when someone is rude I do my best to let it slip off... after all, I don't have to live with them...while they're stuck with themselves for life... and besdies... some people actually just have bad days or moments...

Anyway... now I'm a dealer there for five plus years... when I started setting up, I got put thru the mill... I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt and at least one good try at equitable trading... there are many there now who I can do business with and some I can not... that's life...

And as for the "it's hard to keep smiling with all the tire-kickers" excuse... doesn't hold water with me... as another poster said... "If you don't enjoy the business, find another way to make a living...or learn to make the best of it" ... after all... it does not cost much to be nice and if you're not friendly, it can soon become a non-issue when you find yourself alone...

BTW... Jon/Scarsdale Coins... I thank him for teaching me the art of painting on a smile (even when the show is sucking or my feet/back are aching)... he caught me in a frowning moment...with not a soul stopping at my table... he actually yelled across the bourse and waved to me... when he got my attention he yelled "Smile...it's free!!!"... and got me to snap out of it...I laughed then smiled and soon enough there were people stopping at my table again...true story

itsnotjustme · September 7, 2009 1:09PM

I base my assumption on strong probabilities. How likely is it any dealer at the show had a full set in rattlers? And then how likely that it was this dealer? And then how likely that this dealer has a sale in works for the set intact? I view that as extremely remote. Far more likely the comment was made to irritate the OP.

Now we have only heard the OP version of events, so I am going on the assumption his post is truthful and accurate.

lcoopie · September 7, 2009 1:11PM

I cannot understand why people
who post a story for the board,
do not name the dealer they
are talking about,

Is this insider infomation?
Is it considered confidential?

why tell the story otherwise?

morgandollar1878 · September 7, 2009 1:12PM

Looks to me like a case of you won't scratch my back, I won't scratch yours. I could be wrong I guess. The only way that I can really understand is to have been there and seen what happened myself. If you think he was wrong, then don't do business with him any more.

keets · September 7, 2009 1:26PM

my experience here has been that keeping things anonymous in cases like this is probably best and illicits the most honest replies. if the dealer were named bias would flood in, either from members who had a good experience with him or those who have had bad ones.

CoinCrazyPA · September 7, 2009 1:49PM

<< I base my assumption on strong probabilities. How likely is it any dealer at the show had a full set in rattlers? And then how likely that it was this dealer? And then how likely that this dealer has a sale in works for the set intact? I view that as extremely remote. Far more likely the comment was made to irritate the OP.

Now we have only heard the OP version of events, so I am going on the assumption his post is truthful and accurate. >>

bestday · September 7, 2009 2:15PM

<< My first impression is that the story about the rattler Franklin set was false and simply told to you for I don't know what reason. The initial offer on the coin did not seem horrible, but you have a right to shop the coin around for a better deal. >>

My experience is to shop around for 2-3 well known , trustworthy buyers. .Since August 2007 I handled well over 7 figures amount of coins from coin club members and some of their associates, during those times of economic hardship
Find buyers who won't dance around with lowball ,dumb greysheet bid numbers on nice coins ,and treat those good buyers well.
For those looking for a window into the coin market, my August 2009 was the slowest month of buying since July 2007. The economy has turned the corner for the short term anyways.

MsMorrisine · September 7, 2009 2:16PM

<< 

<< let's do a little math here. without knowing the "Ask" for your coin i'll just imagine that it's $3,200. with that in mind i don't think it's unreasonable for a dealer to offer you 15% back which is $2,720. with that in mind i don't think his offer of $2,950 was bad or out of line. my boss typically buys at 15% back of bid and sells at bid. though my over-the-counter and show experience is limited i can tell you one thing: when an honest and reasonable offer is made it can be very irritating when a seller "begs" for more and uses time that can be spent on another transaction. the best thing to do is to make an offer, accept/decline the dealer's offer and then move on.

i will also say that it is a display of poor etiquette on your part to be at a dealers table asking for the name of another customer, expecting the dealer to broker a sale on an item he's sold. perhaps he wasn't very tactful in how he declined to help you, but i'd bet most dealers wouldn't have helped you out like that unless you were a "regular" that they knew well.
. >>

My sentiments on the matter as well. The dealer could have responded in a friendlier manner but he was under no obligation to provide you with his customer's information. >>

I agree...

and

the buyer could have easily gotten just as snippy and pissy over $50... why... you won't pay -me- $50 more?

the dealer was being a jerk over $50 and found a way to take it out on you to try and score, plus a bit more as described above and expanded upon below:

I asked a dealer about what he'd pay for my 40% and 90% silver, he told me something like 8 and 3 something when it was around 10 and 4. He asked how much I had and I told him he could weigh it, not realizing at the time they went by face instead of weight.

So, he set about counting it out and wrote the numbers down: face and offer for each.

Newbie that I was, I was taken aback that he then went straight into the finishing the sale thing. I told him I was goimg to shop around and he got upset and asked why i let hime count it up. I was going to shop around and he started counting it and I just let things go without thinking to stop it... but he got pissy about my newbie mistake and hoisted up the paper with the number on it in front of me then stuck it in his shirt pocket. Well, Well.

OK, so I should have had a clue and stopped him before he counted it out, not realizing the 8 and 3 something was all I needed to shop around.

hmmm.... left thinking the self-righteous jerk wasn't getting my business even if he had the best offer simply because he treated my mistake like I was a such a bad person. I am a bad person but not for that mistake!

I think the $50 price difference is a wash ... a push... one could say the other is cheap snd vice versa.... and sure the customer was pushing it some by asking for a customer's contact info.... but to act like a human atrocity has been committed.... the dealer was off base as well. He could have been nicer in telling you to forget about it and it'll never happen because he doesn't want to give out customer info to a stranger.

Bcsican · September 7, 2009 2:26PM

never mind

airplanenut · September 7, 2009 2:50PM

<< A shout out for Tom Hyland also. He is always there, and is a true gentleman, IMO. >>

I first started going to the Parsippany show when I was 14, I believe, and I can't echo that statement enough. The best example of his character shined at the GSNA show in 2003 or 2004. A few adults came up to his table and looked ready to do some serious business. He told them to wait until two kids (maybe 12-ish) could select which piece they wanted to buy. He took the time to show them everything he had that they were interested in... and the coins were all under $10.

PerryHall · September 7, 2009 10:31PM

Who was this dealer? Name names! I agree that he never had a complete rattler set of Franklins. Total BS.

Walkerguy21D · September 7, 2009 11:31PM

<< Many times dealers are grumpy because we have to wake up 4am 5am to travel to the show... not an excuse but it is hard to be nice and friendly when your stressed and tired >>

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

Roger that - a couple years ago, I'm at a dealer's table who was set up across from a good fried of mine at our monthly show. He has a nice crusty CH XF half in his case, an earlier date. I ask if I can see it....he responds 'that coin's already sold'....there was no indication it was sold, it didn't have anything written on, wasn't upside in at the back of the case, no clue.....so I said, Oh, are any others already sold, so I don't have to ask about those?.....he stormed away from his table, I just shrugged if off and moved on. Months later I hear from my friend that this guy's been going around telling everyone what an a-hole I am, and he'd never do business with me.....it had taken my friend months to even put 2 and 2 together, as I am on excellent terms with most of the other dealers there, he figured the guy must have been talking about someone else! Ya just never know what's gonna yank someone's chain I guess!

braddick · September 7, 2009 11:43PM

Look at it this way, you just purchase a set of coins.
Now, a stranger approaches you, knowing your business- to offer to buy your newly purchased set of coins.

How do you feel now about the dealer giving up your name (and, obviously describing you so the stranger can find you) along with your personal transaction?

I think when we purchase coins from a dealer there is a little expectation of privacy. No?

brokeer · September 7, 2009 11:57PM

<< Look at it this way, you just purchase a set of coins.
Now, a stranger approaches you, knowing your business- to offer to buy your newly purchased set of coins.

How do you feel now about the dealer giving up your name (and, obviously describing you so the stranger can find you) along with your personal transaction?

I think when we purchase coins from a dealer there is a little expectation of privacy. No? >>

Another possible interpretation could be that the dealer didn't want to give up the purchaser info because he was upset he didn't sell it to the OP for the higher price.

braddick · September 8, 2009 12:01AM

Honestly, I don't care what the motive is of the dealer whether it is honorable or based on selfish wants, not giving up a client's information to a complete stranger is vital.

PTVETTER · September 8, 2009 12:01AM

His wording may have been wrong but, you can't give out names of buyer without thier permission. End of comment..

I'm sure everyone understands that point.

Asking for his name was wrong in the first place.

roadrunner · September 8, 2009 12:13AM

$25-$150 is the typical profit margin on a coin like this as generic slabbed gold is typically worked at 2-4%. Retailers may play the 10-15% game but not the gold wholesalers who move most of this market. If the dealer tossed in another "measly" $50 he may have had no where to go with the coin other than to flip it for no profit at $3000. At $2950 he's probably assured of making $25-$50 and at $3000 he becomes a speculator hoping gold goes higher to bail him out.

I made the same offer on this coin on the BST based on a photograph back on August 15th when gold was much cheaper. That was prior to knowing that there was a bottom line of $3000 on the coin. I wasn't able to go to $3000 either since I could buy them under that price. The coin was up on the BST with no buyer for nearly three weeks which plainly said that $3000 was more than anyone here was willing to pay. Was the coin shopped around the Parsippany show or did you make this dealer your first stop as soon as you entered because you had done business before? Did others pass on the $3000 price as well before one guy was willing to meet it? No one wants to be the last guy at the show to be offered coins that others passed on.

Why not just meet the original guy in the middle at $2975 since it "only" would have been $25. That might have just netted you a rattler Franklin set which you did need and maybe been worth a lot more to you than $50. If it were me and the dealer had something I wanted badly and 1.6% was all that was standing between me and it, the deal would have gotten done.

Edit: holding this coin for another 2 weeeks or so would probably have netted you a profit.

roadrunner

IrishMike · September 8, 2009 12:14AM

Not sure why you are offended or others, its fitty bux on a 3000 coin, big deal and he has no business giving out his clients name. It could have been handled far better but so what.

brokeer · September 8, 2009 12:16AM

I agree giving out purchaser info is wrong and asking for it is wrong too. Perhaps the seller could offer to broker deal to repurchase them from buyer privately for a percentage? But that could get complicated and not worth the trouble.

doh · September 8, 2009 12:22AM

I'm with the dealer on this one. I mean, he wasn't exactly "nice," but you didn't really do anything for him either. Why do you expect him to name names for you? Do you think his customers want their names released to strangers? I sure wouldn't.

ambro51 · September 8, 2009 1:28AM

If youre not willing to move 50 bucks on a 3K coin.....you may as well consign yourself to always owning the coins you have and never attempting to sell.

Just the fact you used the word "common" in your original post denotes exactly how much demand and lust the dealer has for your coin.

Both you guys needed to lighten up a little there.......and PLEASE dont name the dealer. Just let this whole thing fade away...and try again another day.

Put the darn coin up on ebay with a BIN for $3399 and an exceptionally good photograph, it may sell in 2 hours. You know what Barnum said................

al410 · September 8, 2009 1:46AM

Retail is Retail and Wholesale is Wholesale, To be in the retail side of any Bussiness customer service is a must. Sometimes as retailers we just have to grin and bear it as there is nothing more important then our reputation as a service provider. The dealer did nothing wrong in not wanting to increase his offer or provide his customers info, it is all in the delivery.
AL

BBN · September 8, 2009 3:17AM

<< Our hobby does have a tendency to draw its share of people who lack people skills. That may be something >>

I have been thinking on the other side of the coin. I can see how he maybe didn't want to give out personal info of someone who bought this, but his attitude definitely could have been different. Instead of "you didn't help me so I'm not helping you" maybe he should have said "for the safety of my customers I don't give out personal info when they've just walked away with a lot of cash or expensive coins.

BBN · September 8, 2009 3:18AM

<< Look at it this way, you just purchase a set of coins.
Now, a stranger approaches you, knowing your business- to offer to buy your newly purchased set of coins.

How do you feel now about the dealer giving up your name (and, obviously describing you so the stranger can find you) along with your personal transaction?

I think when we purchase coins from a dealer there is a little expectation of privacy. No? >>

LOL, I just posted this, but yeah, I agree with this. The dealer should have used this angle to keep the customer service thing positive.

first bad experience at parsippany show with a dealer-

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