The experts need to step up

Brewmaster · August 25, 2009 11:46PM

I have recently noticed a fair amount of coins being "graded" by PCGS are coming back "questionable authenticity". If the experts can't determine one way or another then I suggest they look for a new career....maybe in politics? Step up to the plate and make a judgment call based on your "expertise" in the field, otherwise why even bother?

MrEureka · August 25, 2009 11:50PM

I think it's important for the experts to work harder to keep up with the counterfeiters. This includes dealers, myself included, as well as professional graders. But I also think it would be stupid for a TPG to make a decisive judgment on authenticity when they're not 100% sure.

RyGuy · August 25, 2009 11:52PM

I'm here, what do you need?

mozeppa · August 26, 2009 12:06AM

<< I think it's important for the experts to work harder to keep up with the counterfeiters. This includes dealers, myself included, as well as professional graders. But I also think it would be stupid for a TPG to make a decisive judgment on authenticity when they're not 100% sure. >>

actually they have decisively executed judgement on authenticity...the coin is NOT graded...
the only wrong thing done here was that they admitted that they don't know elmo from shinola about whats real and whats not.

grading companies should buy as many known counterfiet examples as can be had to reference...know thy enemy to know thyself.

MrEureka · August 26, 2009 12:19AM

the only wrong thing done here was that they admitted that they don't know elmo from shinola about whats real and whats not.

To admit that you can't figure out a coin doesn't make you incompetent. In fact, the best authenticators are often unsure about an occasional coin.

I'll also add that there are many real coins that cannot be positively authenticated by anyone, at least at present. Often, that's a function of the condition of the coin. Other times, there's simply insufficient data.

Brewmaster · August 26, 2009 12:23AM

<< 

<< I think it's important for the experts to work harder to keep up with the counterfeiters. This includes dealers, myself included, as well as professional graders. But I also think it would be stupid for a TPG to make a decisive judgment on authenticity when they're not 100% sure. >>

actually they have decisively executed judgement on authenticity...the coin is NOT graded...
the only wrong thing done here was that they admitted that they don't know elmo from shinola about whats real and whats not.

grading companies should buy as many known counterfiet examples as can be had to reference...know thy enemy to know thyself. >>

Well put!

19Lyds · August 26, 2009 12:23AM

<< I have recently noticed a fair amount of coins being "graded" by PCGS are coming back "questionable authenticity". If the experts can't determine one way or another then I suggest they look for a new career....maybe in politics? Step up to the plate and make a judgment call based on your "expertise" in the field, otherwise why even bother? >>

I see your back to chew on PCGS again!

FredWeinberg · August 26, 2009 12:39AM

I thought this was discussed a few days ago, or
maybe a week ago.

I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth.......

rgCoinGuy · August 26, 2009 12:44AM

I agree with Fred. I think it is so they don't have to involve the goverment/secret service over the term counterfeit money.

tahoe98 · August 26, 2009 12:51AM

........there are some collectors that may say re-submit until you get what you're looking for.

metalmeister · August 26, 2009 12:56AM

I always felt an "expert" makes bold statements, get paid, then leaves town.

Brewmaster · August 26, 2009 1:05AM

<< 

<< I have recently noticed a fair amount of coins being "graded" by PCGS are coming back "questionable authenticity". If the experts can't determine one way or another then I suggest they look for a new career....maybe in politics? Step up to the plate and make a judgment call based on your "expertise" in the field, otherwise why even bother? >>

I see your back to chew on PCGS again!

>>

And I see your here still being their little cheerleader...can you please act like a big boy this time?

Brewmaster · August 26, 2009 1:08AM

<< I thought this was discussed a few days ago, or
maybe a week ago.

I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth....... >>

That might be the case, but it seems to me they could choose better wording as the current phrase makes it sound like they are clueless.

FredWeinberg · August 26, 2009 1:29AM

It's not a current phrase, it's a phrase they've
been using for at least 20 years, as far as I can recall.

And, I'd like to add, that Andy is correct - there ARE
some cases where the coin, due to it's condition, surfaces,
etc., is truly 'questionable', but in the vast majority of
cases, imo, the TPG's do know the coin is NG........

ElKevvo · August 26, 2009 1:34AM

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of the coins graded questionable authenticity are in fact counterfeit. We have all heard stories of the coin that gets bought or sold and either the buyer or the seller claims it is counterfeit and the other side claims it is genuine. If a TPG said it cannot confirm that it is real then take that for what it is worth. If not real then it is counterfeit.

K

adamlaneus · August 26, 2009 1:38AM

And all this time when I got my coins listed "Q. A.", I was happy because I thought that was Quality Assurance.

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 3:04AM

<< I have recently noticed a fair amount of coins being "graded" by PCGS are coming back "questionable authenticity". If the experts can't determine one way or another then I suggest they look for a new career....maybe in politics? Step up to the plate and make a judgment call based on your "expertise" in the field, otherwise why even bother? >>

totaly disagree, when there's doubt, throw it out

K S

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 5:05AM

<< 

<< I thought this was discussed a few days ago, or
maybe a week ago.

I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth....... >>

That might be the case, but it seems to me they could choose better wording as the current phrase makes me sound like I am clueless. >>

Fixed.

19Lyds · August 26, 2009 5:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< I thought this was discussed a few days ago, or
maybe a week ago.

I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth....... >>

That might be the case, but it seems to me they could choose better wording as the current phrase makes me sound like I am clueless. >>

Fixed. >>

ocon4008 · August 26, 2009 6:12AM

<<I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth....... >>

Are you saying they do not want to get in the middle of a dispute between buyer and seller because of the legal ramifications? I can believe there are a few instances due to coins condition that identification is uncertain, but realistically speaking how many people are sending in circulated coins below EF? The vast majority of coins they receive are AU-50+; look at the population reports. If they cannot tell in that condition whether the coin is counterfeit or altered, then I have to agree with the OP.

If they are just avoiding the law suit, then shame on them. People are looking to them to set the standard; they are the experts. They have the credentials to stand up in court. If they do not want the responsibility of confiscating counterfeit coins then they need to rethink their position. Again, I say people are looking to them to set the example! Someone has to be responsible to safe guard the average citizen.

I am licensed to practice land surveying in three states; I had to pass exams proving my qualifications in all three states. In every state I practice there is a board of senior practitioners that regulate my profession. They are responsible for formulating the laws that govern how I do my job. And the only reason these boards exist is to protect the safety and welfare of the general public.

Are coin dealers professionals? Do coin dealers have professional associations? If the answer is yes, then they have a responsibility to safe guard the general public. Everyone in this country loves the freedom, but I want to remind everyone that freedom comes with a price tag: RESPONSIBILITY!

Do to the ever increasing cost of coins is it time to start licensing dealers? Should TPG be licensed? Would you consider using an attorney that is not a member of the bar? Would you go to your butcher to have surgery? How many TPG have sprung up to take advantage of the lucrative market created by true professionals.
Every state in this union has some form of board for professional regulations; should coin dealers start to lobby to be included? In my home state, they license interior decorators and beauticians. Are they more professional than coin dealers?

I know this, in the states I practice it is illegal to practice land surveying without a license. If caught and convicted a person can be fined and/or sent to prison. If we take greater responsibility as a group it will be easier to control the crooks. Notice I did not say eliminate; when there is this much money to be made the unscrupulous will always try to find an edge.

Just MHO

Jim

Lakesammman · August 26, 2009 6:28AM

I'll also add that there are many real coins that cannot be positively authenticated by anyone, at least at present.

I showed a coin to MrEureka once and he told me it was PROBABLY a genuine mint product, then sent me off for another opinion. If he has a hard time knowing then I can pretty much guarantee it's not always clear cut.

shorecoll · August 26, 2009 6:34AM

I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but bill acceptors on vending machines are "verifiers" or "validators", they are NOT counterfeit detectors for the reasons discussed above. The last person holding the thing loses the money, but no one wants to accept the loss so we all pretend not to "get it". I think we all or the ANA or the ANS should put up a bounty (reimbursement) for the Secret Service to bust some eBay counterfeiters and put them in prison. It's obviously not worth their time so we need to take steps to make it worth their time. Copy 1,000 $1 bills and you go to prison, intentionally pass them and you go to prison. Make a 1,000 counterfeit Trade $ or intentionally pass them and you get Powerseller status on eBay. Rant...rant...rant!

pheh · August 26, 2009 6:44AM

I am surprised no one has brought the "No Decision/Refund" decision and what makes the two decisions different (other than getting your money back). For what its worth this is an excerpt of my response to GoldBully when he brought up the topic:

<<The way I read it (not having ever heard anything official) this is what they mean:

[Genuine] = To problematic to give a grade, but absolutely genuine.
[No Decision/Refund] = We think this coin is most likely genuine - but for some reason or another we just can't slap a PCGS guaranty on this coin.
[Questionable Authenticity] = We really aren't sure but we are leaning toward not genuine.
[Not Genuine] = Without question this coin is a fake.

Given that multiple graders might look at certain coins and possibly disagree, you would eventually need some sort of contingency public decisions for those disagreements.>>

19Lyds · August 26, 2009 9:01AM

I think that Questionable Authenticity and Not Genuine can and do cover more than just counterfeit.

For example, if a mint mark has been added in such a way as to make the coin appear genuine (or authentic if you will), then the coin itself is not counterfeit as much as it is "altered". In this case, counterfeit would be an improper label since the coin itself may be genuine (or authentic if you will) but its the added mintmark that makes the coin, as perceived, Not Genuine.

If the TPG cannot for sure tell if the mm was added, then a not genuine could be in order or better yet, questionable authenticity.

The bottom line is that property sent to a TPG for grading does not automatically become eligible for confiscation just because they think it might not be genuine. It is after all, not their property but the property of the submitter. The submitter is not trying to spend the coin (or pass a counterfeit), which would then give the TPG the obligation to confiscate it, they are only asking for a grading "opinion".

CoinCrazyPA · August 26, 2009 10:54AM

<< I thought this was discussed a few days ago, or
maybe a week ago.

I believe the term "questionable authenticity" has
nothing to do with the fact that TPG's aren't SURE
the coin isn't genuine; it's because of legal reasons.

You're reading too much into the term 'questionable';
I know it sounds like 'they don't know', etc., but that
is NOT the case, in my opinion.

They know, they can tell, they choose to use this
phrase "Q.A." -

Just my Questionable Two Cents Worth....... >>

The experts need to step up

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