Regarding die flow lines in depressions
fruitloops
Posts: 343
I had a dream the other day and had a light bulb go off in my head.
My instructor at the ANA counterfeit class I took and in many of his articles he writes that depressions on counterfeit coins (which are legitiment contact marks on the sacrificed coin to make the transfer dies) on US gold, often have luster in them because the coin is struck and metal flows into the space and fills it with luster, since it was struck.
Now, if we think about luster. Luster is caused by light reflecting off die flow lines when a coin is made correct? Throughout die states of coins gives different amounts of luster, from satin, to semi PL (slightly worn dies) where the die flow lines may be visible in certain die states. A good example of a LDS (late die state) is the early saints. Most 1908 saints have satiny luster, rather than lustrous blazing luster the later dates have. This is from a worn die.
Getting back to the depressions and luster, since the counterfeit coins are struck and luster flows in, this does mean because they have luster there are die flow lines *In* the depressions? Is this correct? Because I made a counterfeit thread detection on coin talk and one person said there are no die flow lines in depressions, while others said that is a sign a coin is counterfeit. On the other hand, geniune coins can have mint made deprssions but very rarely do they have luster in them. I wonder why this is? I think it's because the depressions on geniune coins are from mint flaws, not contact marks from the transfer dies coins.
Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.
Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question
My instructor at the ANA counterfeit class I took and in many of his articles he writes that depressions on counterfeit coins (which are legitiment contact marks on the sacrificed coin to make the transfer dies) on US gold, often have luster in them because the coin is struck and metal flows into the space and fills it with luster, since it was struck.
Now, if we think about luster. Luster is caused by light reflecting off die flow lines when a coin is made correct? Throughout die states of coins gives different amounts of luster, from satin, to semi PL (slightly worn dies) where the die flow lines may be visible in certain die states. A good example of a LDS (late die state) is the early saints. Most 1908 saints have satiny luster, rather than lustrous blazing luster the later dates have. This is from a worn die.
Getting back to the depressions and luster, since the counterfeit coins are struck and luster flows in, this does mean because they have luster there are die flow lines *In* the depressions? Is this correct? Because I made a counterfeit thread detection on coin talk and one person said there are no die flow lines in depressions, while others said that is a sign a coin is counterfeit. On the other hand, geniune coins can have mint made deprssions but very rarely do they have luster in them. I wonder why this is? I think it's because the depressions on geniune coins are from mint flaws, not contact marks from the transfer dies coins.
Therefore, if you find a soft , rounded depression on a counterfeit US gold, that 'blends' in with the rest of the coin, that has luster and die flows in it, it is likely a depression on a counterfeit coins. Since the counterfeiter uses one coin and therefore one die to make his coins, all depressions struck from that die are in the same spot on each coin struck, called 'repeating depressions.' Therefore if you find 2 coins from the same die and they both have repeating depresions from the same die, you can match them up and be sure its counterfeit.
Hope this helps someone..maybe someone can answer my question
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New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Luster is an artifact of the die, not the planchet. (Counterfeiters will try to pickup this fine detail if they can.)
<< <i>Good! Keep thinking!!!
Luster is an artifact of the die, not the planchet. (Counterfeiters will try to pickup this fine detail if they can.) >>
Often times struck gold counterfeits will have a loss of detail, especially evident under magnification. I guess some details are lost from the transfer dies made by the coin when the coin is struck? I'm not sure exactly why..but its something I see often.
I heard some counterfeiters would strike the coin with more force to compensate to get more detail.
Not so fast. Have you ever seen a 1908 Saint with the blazing luster that you see on a 1927? Conversely, have you ever seen a 1927 with the frosty luster that you see on the 1908's? I haven't. Yet both issues have huge mintages and huge pops.
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<< <i>Most 1908 saints have satiny luster, rather than lustrous blazing luster the later dates have. This is from a worn die.
Not so fast. Have you ever seen a 1908 Saint with the blazing luster that you see on a 1927? Conversely, have you ever seen a 1927 with the frosty luster that you see on the 1908's? I haven't. Yet both issues have huge mintages and huge pops. >>
From what I've seen, most early date saints seem to have a more satiny luster. I may be wrong, but that's my opinion from what I've seen. I had someone PM me and tell me that the satin luster is actually from a new die, I assumed it was LDS because of my error friend who examined it told me. It's a great learning experience, though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Most counterfeit dies are made from a real coin. If the model coin has any bag marks, those depressions will be transferred to the counterfeit dies and then to the counterfeit coins struck from those dies. On a genuine coin, the bag marks will usually have a different texture than the surrounding fields. Picture a shiny bag mark on a frosty silver dollar. Bag marks on a counterfeit coin will usually have a texture the same as the surrounding fields since they were both struck into the planchet at the time of striking. Hope this helps clarify things. >>
Thanks perry for explaining that, its helpful even though I was already aware of that.
Now if the host coin that the counterfeit dies are made from is worn, and not uncirculated, will the loss of detail be transferred over to the counterfeit coin? Do most counterfeiters use MS geniune coins as the host coin then?
<< <i>
<< <i>Most counterfeit dies are made from a real coin. If the model coin has any bag marks, those depressions will be transferred to the counterfeit dies and then to the counterfeit coins struck from those dies. On a genuine coin, the bag marks will usually have a different texture than the surrounding fields. Picture a shiny bag mark on a frosty silver dollar. Bag marks on a counterfeit coin will usually have a texture the same as the surrounding fields since they were both struck into the planchet at the time of striking. Hope this helps clarify things. >>
Thanks perry for explaining that, its helpful even though I was already aware of that.
Now if the host coin that the counterfeit dies are made from is worn, and not uncirculated, will the loss of detail be transferred over to the counterfeit coin? Do most counterfeiters use MS geniune coins as the host coin then? >>
Most counterfeiters use the best and most perfect genuine coin that they can find as the model to produce their false dies which almost always means using an uncirculated coin with minimal marks. If a low grade coin were used to create a false die, the counterfeits produced by these dies would have the details of a circulated coin yet would have full luster making them look strange and unreal and difficult to sell to a collector familiar with the look of a real uncirculated coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Most counterfeit dies are made from a real coin. If the model coin has any bag marks, those depressions will be transferred to the counterfeit dies and then to the counterfeit coins struck from those dies. On a genuine coin, the bag marks will usually have a different texture than the surrounding fields. Picture a shiny bag mark on a frosty silver dollar. Bag marks on a counterfeit coin will usually have a texture the same as the surrounding fields since they were both struck into the planchet at the time of striking. Hope this helps clarify things. >>
Thanks perry for explaining that, its helpful even though I was already aware of that.
Now if the host coin that the counterfeit dies are made from is worn, and not uncirculated, will the loss of detail be transferred over to the counterfeit coin? Do most counterfeiters use MS geniune coins as the host coin then? >>
Most counterfeiters use the best and most perfect genuine coin that they can find as the model to produce their false dies which almost always means using an uncirculated coin with minimal marks. If a low grade coin were used to create a false die, the counterfeits produced by these dies would have the details of a circulated coin yet would have full luster making them look strange and unreal and difficult to sell to a collector familiar with the look of a real uncirculated coin. >>
Thanks perry, I figured that too. Didn't realize if they used a circulated coin as a host to make the dies it would have luster of an uncirculated coin, I guess that's because it was struck.