Options
In an attempt to manipulate market prices have you heard of anyone who has ever done any of the foll
SanctionII
Posts: 13,279 ✭✭✭✭✭
1. acquire & hoard available specimens of a specific coin to reduce the # on the market at any given time in order to increase price through an artificially low supply;
2. acquire and destroy a portion of available specimens of a specific coin to increase price through creating (via destruction) an actual lower supply;
3. create artificial [and phantom] purchase/sale transactions on Eday, Teletrade, Heritage or other auction sites for a specific coin with ever increasing numbers of auctions at ever higher prices, with the seller using shill buyers.
If so, tell us the details of any such attempts at market manipulation.
2. acquire and destroy a portion of available specimens of a specific coin to increase price through creating (via destruction) an actual lower supply;
3. create artificial [and phantom] purchase/sale transactions on Eday, Teletrade, Heritage or other auction sites for a specific coin with ever increasing numbers of auctions at ever higher prices, with the seller using shill buyers.
If so, tell us the details of any such attempts at market manipulation.
0
Comments
Great question and I wonder if its done, how does the coin community look at these coins and the person doing this?
<< <i>1. acquire & hoard available specimens of a specific coin to reduce the # on the market at any given time in order to increase price through an artificially low supply;
>>
I don't know, but I could have done that in buying 1908-S Indian Head Cents for my grading set...
I bought every PCGS graded example available in MS63 and below that I could find online and on eBay for about 3-4 months straight. Bought maybe 50 or so PCGS graded examples in that time period. Not sure if it was just good timing or not, but the prices on that coin jumped significantly in the greysheet after I had done that. The Jan 2009 to June 2009 prices on the circulated grades jumped around 20% to 50% depending on the grade.
Can one person really have that much of an impact on the prices??? Maybe I should sell my grading set all at once and see if they come back down
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>1. acquire & hoard available specimens of a specific coin to reduce the # on the market at any given time in order to increase price through an artificially low supply; >>
I don't remember the years (I think mid 90s) many coin magazines had an ad from a guy that wanted to buy all 1932-d cents in any grade in rolls or singles. Sure seemed like an attempt to corner the market on a lower mintage coin that at the time was cheap to buy.
Not sure if it worked or not.
I also remember a story (long ago) of a guy hoarding 1922 plain cents and having thousands of them. Not sure if it was true or not.
<< <i>Scrooge McDuck (in UNCLE SCROOGE #2?, early 1950's) acquired all of a certain date quarter (1916 Barber if I recall correctly) and dumped all but one of them in the ocean. He then lost the one he kept and had to try to find one of the specimens he dumped in the ocean. >>
As an old Carl Barks fan this was the first thing I thought of!
I simply said..."Well, at least now I know why they're so rare"
True story...
I used to think how cool it would be to have a vault filled with gold coins with a diving board so that you could do a swan dive and a few laps swimming in gold.
I have watched two different people on ebay during the last year or so buy very many Mercury Dimes and Roosevelt Dimes that were graded by PCGS.
The Mercury buyer stuck mostly to the dates before 1934 and price was not a factor with the purchases. He just cleaned out the catagory on a daily basis by outbidding other bidders.
The Roosevelt buyer was much more picky and seemed to only go after grades that were below MS67. FB and non-FB coins made no difference to the buyer and he bought all dates to the present.
Both of the buyers had multiple coins of every date I would think. Still with the buying they did I doubt if the purchases would impact the market long term.
I lucked out with the Roosevelt buyer because he purchased many coins from me. Not so with the Mercury buyer because he inflated prices to a point I would not pay. I got even with the Mercury buyer one day in the place that really hurts.
Ken
Ken
Of course.
Ever hear of the Orphan Annie Dime?
Ray
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>2. acquire and destroy a portion of available specimens of a specific coin to increase price through creating (via destruction) an actual lower supply; >>
I have actually been taking a hammer to early Lincoln proofs for months now. Is it having any effect on the market yet?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I knew a collector who had several hundred 27-s SLQs, but in lower grades (VG-F) because he thought they were too cheap.
I met an engineer at a local coin show who hoarded key dates for his retirement and brought them out annually at the local show stuff like 20 1877 IHCs, 20 09S-VDBs, etc. People would just walk by and stare at his cases.
I don't know if any were intentionally trying to accomplish your stated goals.
but are indeed techniques to raise the price of a
certain coin. Historically , it was done with classic
commems in the 70s and 80s. I find that #2 is not
viable. The thought of destroying a beautiful old
coin probably offends manipulators as much as
true collectors.
Camelot
"...and let them rain down on my head."
Someone once suggested I do such that. I used to collect NBA basketball cards, although I stopped in 2006. I have an example of a card that is serially numbered to 7. The person I bought that one from had 2 of the others...he had the gaul to suggest I buy the other two from him and rip them in half.
What I called him can not be repeated on the board.
ive heard similiar stories about the 93-s morgan from other dealers/collectors, but unless these hoards have come out, prices for them definetly have been going down.
ps..and YES, prices have been going up in my little fun area! Im trying it myself!
<< <i>I heard about a stamp collector that supposedly had the only two known examples of a stamp. While speaking at a stamp club meeting he took one out and set it on fire before the crowd. Have any stamp collectors ever heard this story?
That sounds like a good urban legend.
"I don't know, but I could have done that in buying 1908-S Indian Head Cents for my grading set...
I bought every PCGS graded example available in MS63 and below that I could find online and on eBay for about 3-4 months straight. Bought maybe 50 or so PCGS graded examples in that time period. Not sure if it was just good timing or not, but the prices on that coin jumped significantly in the greysheet after I had done that. The Jan 2009 to June 2009 prices on the circulated grades jumped around 20% to 50% depending on the grade.
Can one person really have that much of an impact on the prices??? Maybe I should sell my grading set all at once and see if they come back down Nah"
I'm sure you could buy more coins in the same time span, than you did before.....now that the prices have gone up. someone is going to "ruin" the coin
if they raise it up on the greysheet much more in good to vf or so grades. coins like the 38 d half and others have gone through this phase.
he said :
"i'll keep trying to buy all of them i can...crack the ones i got...keep sending them in to be graded and keep all the labels.
This will drive the prices down and drive the populations up.
then those fearing that the bottom on them has fallen out due to the increased pops,
will sell their 70-S's at a much lower price to keep from losing too much on their investment.
then ... i'll buy those.
and keep on until i have the majority of them.
when i feel the time is right... i'll send in the labels to correct the pops, dramatically decreasing the pops and also dramatically increasing their value."
paraphrased... but what he said in a nut shell.
there are approx 30 of these....i have one... he has maybe 3 ...(4 years ago) he's wealthy and just nuts enough to do that.
several have been sold, anyone know who to?
P.S. he also has two 69-s doubled dies.
<< <i>About 30 years ago I seem to remember reading something by David Hall, probably in his newsletter. He talked about offering to buy rolls of a certain dime, 1949S I believe, and gradually raising his bid price until he had acquired a large quantity of them. He then sold them all at a profit. If I remember correctly, he said he merely thought the coin was undervalued and was not deliberately trying to manipulate the market. >>
okey-dokey... not deliberate... I'll buy that...
Well, this explains why all those silver coins were melted down in 1979-80. I knew there had to be a reason!
<< <i>In my opinion, #1 and #3 are not only possible,
but are indeed techniques to raise the price of a
certain coin. Historically , it was done with classic
commems in the 70s and 80s. I find that #2 is not
viable. The thought of destroying a beautiful old
coin probably offends manipulators as much as
true collectors. >>
#2 happens frequently though not always intentionally.
When Silver hit $50 a lot of common date silver proofs and MS coins got melted.
I believe Silvertown reported melting a lot of recent 1st Spouse gold when gold hit $1000 in 2008
I sold 25+ ounces of 2005-2007 APEs when Platinum hit $2000-$2300.
I sold all without packaging or capsules.
A little bag with proof and MS coins banging together.
Buyer bought them for scrap value at smelter and neither he nor I had any remorse about them being destroyed.
Now these were coins I had acquired at a much lower price and had bought then as both a bullion and numismatic play.
It just turned out the bullion play was better than the numismatic play.
Destroying them never bothered me one bit.
<< <i>i knew a guy 4 years ago who has two 70-s doubled die lincolns...was in the process of getting a 3rd at that time.
he said :
"i'll keep trying to buy all of them i can...crack the ones i got...keep sending them in to be graded and keep all the labels.
This will drive the prices down and drive the populations up.
then those fearing that the bottom on them has fallen out due to the increased pops,
will sell their 70-S's at a much lower price to keep from losing too much on their investment.
then ... i'll buy those.
and keep on until i have the majority of them.
when i feel the time is right... i'll send in the labels to correct the pops, dramatically decreasing the pops and also dramatically increasing their value."
paraphrased... but what he said in a nut shell.
there are approx 30 of these....i have one... he has maybe 3 ...(4 years ago) he's wealthy and just nuts enough to do that.
several have been sold, anyone know who to?
P.S. he also has two 69-s doubled dies. >>
Interesting.
It might not be as effective as he hopes since a great deal of what really
determines price is the cost of obtaining one relative to the number avail-
able. Part of the availability especially on scarce coins like this is the per-
ception generated by pop reports but it's usually more about how import-
ant current collectors feel the coin is in completing a set. If most who own
one believe it's important then thy are unlikely to sell until they stop this
collection anyway.
Removing the coins from the marketplace might have some small counter-
balancing effect to reduced supply with a decrease in general interest in
the coin.
It's not that I doubt his method can work as that it might not be the most
effective. Of course this depends on the individuals from whom he's trying
to obtain the coins and he may know some of them.