I'm a Trimmer Dont buy from me!!

IJustLoveCards · August 5, 2009 10:53PM

Hi, My name is Felicia, I bought several sealed vending cases of 1976 Topps, I opened the cases, opened the sealed vending boxes, pulled out the cards, put them in card savers, sent them in, and psa graded my cards evidence of trimming.

Humm....

Where they just so awesome your graders couldn't figure out how its possible that my cards could be that smoking, so rather than give them a 10 ( which they deserved) you kept my money and called me a trimmer..

WOW!!!

I do love PSA, I do think they are the best, I defend them all the time, I stand by them and for the most part they get it right, but I'm sorry, you just were wrong on this one, dead wrong!

and before you all chime in with the board line...

I'll say it for you...

I'm Sorry This Happened to you!!

DavidPuddy · August 5, 2009 11:01PM

First off... I AM Sorry This Happened to you.

Sometimes I think it's a money grab, and sometime I don't think the graders really know what EOT looks like.
Time to play the resub game.

BPorter26 · August 5, 2009 11:07PM

Why not call and speak to Joe Orlando about this issue?

gameusedhoop · August 5, 2009 11:08PM

Try emailing Joe O. or even calling him. If any deserves any justice around here it is YOU. Don't let them steal your $$, complain to the top, maybe he'll have them reviewed again. Good Luck.

slantycouch · August 5, 2009 11:12PM

Haha I like the preemptive ISTHTY.

Allen · August 5, 2009 11:13PM

How large a sub was it? Did they grade any of them? I hate to hear this, but I think Joe will fix it.

IJustLoveCards · August 5, 2009 11:16PM

168 cards...

Yes they did grade most of them I got some 10's alot of 9's...

in fact, I did get a pop 1 of 1 psa 10 ( Ken Rietz)

But others were labeled evid of trimming, While yes they miss some, I'd rather be told that the cards were something else, but evid of trimming..comeon!!

they should have a category:

N12: Card just to smoking to believe it wasn't altered, it cut the fingers of grader when he/she took it out of said card saver.

onefasttalon · August 5, 2009 11:18PM

Make one wonder how many of us have sent in cards that were deemed EOT that really weren't trimmed.
I've sent in a few cards in the past that I bought raw, and submitted them because I thought they were worthy... just to end up EOT.
What do I do with these cards?... well, consider them trash for the most part... wonder if I've 'trashed' some cards there were actually GOOD???

Hope PSA gets this righted for you Felicia, and someone gets a stern talkin' to over at the graders table.

Edit'd for grammer corrections...

mrmint23 · August 5, 2009 11:29PM

Try to put yourself in their shoes for a minute. How often does someone bust FRESH cards from an untouched box and remit? Probably less than 1% of the time. How often do they see cards that at first glance look alot like cards from a FRESH untouched box? Probably very often. So if maybe they could consider the source submitting the cards(pictures of you opening the sealed cases) they would have a heads up that untrimmed cards were on the way.

Good Luck

Kirk

jeffcbay · August 5, 2009 11:30PM

Felicia, you should call them before your package leaves PSA, that way they can double check them before they're shipped back. How many were deemed trimmed?

DavidPuddy · August 5, 2009 11:31PM

<< N12: Card just to smoking to believe it wasn't altered, it cut the fingers of grader when he/she took it out of said card saver. >>

itzagoner · August 5, 2009 11:31PM

never, i said, NEVER throw away your EOT's.

here's my little tidbit.....from a handful of old Fleer football cards which were ALL deemed EOT, i found the following results from 7 different cards:

2 of them, i just couldn't understand how in the world they could do such a thing to me, so i sent them back in.....they now each reside in a PSA 8 holder.

but the other 5

two of them have some weird miscut, THANKS FLEER!, on the back where paper on the top border seems to have been peeled away, but the front views look perfect, cards measure up, etc. etc.....but they won't go back because of the cut

one of them has a grooved line directly down the middle of the card....if not for that, it would be a DROP DEAD PSA 10 in my humbled opinion

the last two show evidence of something which will keep them out of PSA holders, but it ain't trimming.......it would be the enormous CREASES on the card backs......

of course, this all happened when i was a grading neophyte, but now i use a loupe and some common sense.......but, i must wonder occasionally if they are using some kind of modified Wheel Of Fortune when they are just not sure......i think you got some crappy spins, Felicia.

Mickey71 · August 5, 2009 11:32PM

Newsflash--- they don't know what a trimmed card is. There is no exact way to tell evidence of trimming- only obvious ones. Cards were cut sharp,rough cut, jagged, cards were cut and still stuck on the sheet and then pulled by hand to seperate from the sheet. Blades were very sharp. Blades were very dull. Blades on the top were very sharp. Blades on the top were very dull. Blades on the top were very sharp and blades on the sides were very dull. Sharp edge on top and rough or jagged edge on the side. The whole theory of the edges being consistant is thrown out the window. How many 56 have different looking edges on the same card.

Bottom9th · August 5, 2009 11:55PM

Is EOT just the generic tag the give to a card that they can't figure out how to grade? This is ridiculous. Good luck with your pursuit of this matter.

RonBurgundy · August 6, 2009 12:05AM

Felicia,

Very sorry to hear your frustration about this.

leathtech · August 6, 2009 12:08AM

Call Joe O... you should get vouchers for the cards since they are not EOT, they might be miss-sized some how but no way are they EOT... the cards came from the BBCE correct??? I would ask Steve to put in a good word for you - It's helped me in the past.

I really think PSA graders are like cops, at the end of the months cops have to give out more tickets to meet their quotas – PSA graders are the same and the have to give out so many EOT’s each month.

Now slowly put down your trimming devices and give PSA a call!

theskypilot · August 6, 2009 12:10AM

felicia

send me the eot and I'll take the chance of resubbing them.

really though sorry about that

sky

Dboneesq · August 6, 2009 12:13AM

Felicia,

I agree with some prior posts ... Give Joe a call and tell him about the vending case you purchased. I would even call Steve (you bought it from him, right?) and ask him to call Joe to confirm that you purchased the case from him. I have always said that the EOT label is a way to keep down the pops and generate more money ... and also an "out" for an inexperienced grader. Yes, I am sure very often that there is DEFINITE EOT and it deserves such a label, but other times you have to wonder why a grader labels it as such.

GOOD LUCK AND MAKE THOSE CALLS NOW!!!!!!

Please let us know the results.

larryallen73 · August 6, 2009 12:26AM

I wonder if the thread goes poof!?

Felicia is one of the most well respected board members but this subject is one of the taboo subjects around here isn't it!? I believe everybody trusts Felicia and thus this is "proof" (at least to me) that PSA does not know what EOT is in every case. I don't think PSA likes this kind of proof to be out in the air for everybody to see....

thedutymon · August 6, 2009 12:28AM

Good Morning,
Felicia,
Call first thing and get the Sub stopped in shipping. I have had this happen to me several times. The most recent a lot of 87 Fleer Basketball, busted a box, sub'd about 70 and 30+ came back Evid. of Tri. I wrote a long memo to Joe and spoke to him several times. The cards were re-evaluated and lo and Behold 29 of them made it into MINT 9 and GEM MINT 10 holders....Imagine that.
You have the double whammy of being able to reference the thread where you busted them on PSA's boards. Don't see any way they don't get Re-Graded and put in holders.
But call Joe NOW!!!!!!!! And get the shipping put on hold!!!!
Neil

bobbybakeriv · August 6, 2009 12:34AM

They will eventually get it right. Grader subjectivity certainly has its advantages....and disadvantages. I have had cards come back EOT that simply dumbfounded me. But, upon resub, they wound up where they belonged. Good luck!!!!!!

ymarea · August 6, 2009 12:35AM

<< ...I do love PSA, I do think they are the best, I defend them all the time, I stand by them and for the most part they get it right, but I'm sorry, you just were wrong on this one, dead wrong!... >>

I could not disagree more. Occurrences such as this happen far too often for TPG to retain any credibility with me. If one wishes to maximize profits from card sales, just keep submitting until you get the desired grade. It's as simple as that. If, however, one is truly a collector who loves acquiring and owning quality cards, KEEP THEM RAW.

sfmays24 · August 6, 2009 12:57AM

PM sent...

Mike

Bosox1976 · August 6, 2009 1:46AM

I'll give you a buck a piece for them

Stingray · August 6, 2009 1:56AM

I knew you were just to nice to be true!!

JK

cardbender · August 6, 2009 2:01AM

Many cards right out of packs and direct from vending look trimmed.
I just think PSA tries to error on the side of caution when some
cards 'look too nice' and so they hand out the EOT moniker.

Just about every major submitter I know has had legit cards rejected for signs of tampering. Don't take it personally. Really
just call Joe or Kevin the new operations manager, and they'll
usually look into it with an open mind. I'm sure they'd rather have
happy customers than angry ones.

Grading is not hard, but it's really very subjective at times.
Just about all cards can grade a notch higher or lower on different
days/views.

A friend just had an Aaron card go from 7 to EOT to an 8 holder.
It really should've been an 8 from the get go, but it just didn't
happen this way. $hit happens.

Raw is great for many cards, but if you want to get the most
dollars for most cards, you need to grade them. That's just reality.

Sorry this happened to you Felicia.

tunahead08 · August 6, 2009 2:17AM

<< If, however, one is truly a collector who loves acquiring and owning quality cards, KEEP THEM RAW. >>

Don't start getting into that BS. Some people like graded cards, some don't. People like collecting different things. Get off your pedestal thinking you are better because you collect raw.

hammered · August 6, 2009 2:45AM

I'd call him, too, but if the grades popped yesterday, it's probably already left the facility.

I can't really add much to this, but if there are only a small handful, I'd just re-sub

Another poster said ALWAYS keep your EV TRIMS. This is absolutely true. I have a small pile of these that I know are not trimmed b/c I pulled them myself
(still in their cardsavers) that I pull from and re-sub every now an then.

They almost always get a grade.

jayhawke · August 6, 2009 3:12AM

I agree with the above. Call Joe, get Steve involved to vouch for the case. I believe leathtech opened a 1986 fleer basketball pack in a group rip and pulled a Jordan, he posted the picture, like you did many, many times showing your cards, and he got a EOT. The card was finally graded a 9 after he talked to Joe.

jeffcbay · August 6, 2009 3:12AM

<< If, however, one is truly a collector who loves acquiring and owning quality cards, KEEP THEM RAW. >>

Says the guy who would most likely get his feeling hurt if someone were to actually GRADE the raw cards that he calls mint.

mtcards · August 6, 2009 3:20AM

IMO and I realize I may be in the minority, but the only EOT you can possibly have is a card that is SMALLER than regular size. Anything else should be graded period!!

Honestly, from a standpoint of "what it is", is there any difference between an oversized card that was trimmed to regular size that would grade a 10 and one that came out of the pack that way? No!!! Ive only had one EOT come back and a miscut 77 Yount that when resubbed came back a 9!!!!

I realize that there is a lot of subjectivity on grades, but there is a big difference between saying a card has EVIDENCE of trimming and one that is 10. My question has always been, WHAT exactly is the EVIDENCE of trimming?

PSARich · August 6, 2009 3:47AM

Hey Felicia,
I've had this happen several times and I believe that PSA is just very careful with anything that looks a little smaller than normal. I purchased about 2000 1974 vending baseball about 10 years ago. I sent in groups of 100 al the time, getting 8's, 9's and even some 10's. Sold them on ebay and made good $$$ when the population numbers were still low. About 4-5 years ago, I got my grades back and the first 10 or so were graded and then 80-90 in a row were listed as EOT. Called Joe and he had me send them back to him and he had another grader look at them. Most came back graded. As with you, I told Joe that these were from vending so I knew they weren't trimmed, maybe mini-sized, but not trimmed. A couple months ago I sent in about 20 more of these cards and about 12-15 came back as EOT. I didn't followup on these but I will resubmit some. Upon inspection, they were a little smaller than usual but I know they were not trimmed.

I always thought that EOT was determined more by studying the edges. Trimmed cards have smooth cuts and fresh white or gray paper color on the edge. I have many PSA 9 cards that vary in size, even in the same year, so I know PSA doesn't automatically determine they are trimmed based on size. As others have mentioned, if you are sure they are not trimmed, give Joe a call and I am sure PSA will review them for you at no cost.

ymarea · August 6, 2009 4:08AM

<< 

<< If, however, one is truly a collector who loves acquiring and owning quality cards, KEEP THEM RAW. >>

Don't start getting into that BS. Some people like graded cards, some don't. People like collecting different things. Get off your pedestal thinking you are better because you collect raw. >>

Why the hostility? You are reading into what I've said. I have not placed myself on a pedestal, nor have I criticized those who prefer collecting graded cards. To suggest that I think I'm "better" is absurd, and sounds a little defensive.

Tedw9 · August 6, 2009 4:08AM

Felicia,

You got some good and sound advice on this thread so I have nothing to add to it except.....I'm quitting the hobby over this.

packCollector · August 6, 2009 4:11AM

I know your pain , check this out.

23 1 15507738 N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1960 TOPPS 122 DON DILLARD ROOKIE STAR Card US
24 1 15507739 N1: EVIDENCE OF TRIMMING 1960 TOPPS 188 DICK WILLIAMS Card US

video of pack break from bbckid price guide

ymarea · August 6, 2009 4:17AM

<< 

<< If, however, one is truly a collector who loves acquiring and owning quality cards, KEEP THEM RAW. >>

Says the guy who would most likely get his feeling hurt if someone were to actually GRADE the raw cards that he calls mint. >>

Again, why the hostility? For those of you who prefer TPG, why do you feel threatened by those who don't? I have sent in many cards to PSA and have had the same mixed results as have all submitters.

My gripe is not with card grading, per se. My gripe is with the ridiculous inconsitency with which the grading standards are applied. We have all experienced or heard of many instances where the same card was submitted many times until a desired grade was achieved. Very often these multiple submissions reflect a wide range of grades and/or reasons for non-holdering. This brings into question the credibility of the entire process.

If you find that offensive or threatening, I feel badly for you.

sfmays24 · August 6, 2009 4:22AM

I collect PSA graded cards and also raw Topps Baseball sets with my Boys... the later is much more enjoyable for us too.

As for ymarea (Brett), he is one of the finest collectors/people on these boards and very generous (both with cards & knowledge). I wish there were more folks like Brett on these boards and in our hobby-thank you Brett!

Mike

EagleEyeKid · August 6, 2009 4:30AM

We all feel your pain.
EOT needs to be changed, because the word "evidence" is in there and they never provide any evidence.
I am a true believer that if the card looks too good to be true especially with vintage or high dollar cards (jordan fleer?),
and the grader is unsure, they'll stick the EOT just to save face and their butts.

For someone like Felicia who spends thousands of dollars on older cases for the sole purpose of getting pack fresh
cards for submission and then getting robbed, is an absolute joke. Now she has to play the re-sub game and give
them more money and hopefully the cards land in the proper hands of someone who can actually grade and knows
what they're doing. And yes, "I'm sorry this happened to you." Okay, I'm done.

tunahead08 · August 6, 2009 4:35AM

<< 

Why the hostility? You are reading into what I've said. I have not placed myself on a pedestal, nor have I criticized those who prefer collecting graded cards. To suggest that I think I'm "better" is absurd, and sounds a little defensive. >>

Perhaps I did read too much into your post. It just seemed like you were making those who collect raw to be the true collectors over those who buy graded, you see a lot of that on some of these boards. I think I forgot my #1 rule about forum posting which is to not take a certain tone from a posting. Sorry for the rude tone

It's most likely that I'm dealing with a stupid issue for a client right now and getting the run around from 3 different vendors. Not an excuse but it has made me more agitated than normal currently!

itzagoner · August 6, 2009 4:35AM

don't hatte on Brett hatters.....not only is he far from cynical, he is quite right.

Rogermnj · August 6, 2009 4:36AM

STOP trimming cards!

jivan · August 6, 2009 4:41AM

Hello, I have subbed to tpg and bought cards already graded.....here is my question...if the grader sees a problem like this, why not call it to the attention of the manager and perhaps have a 2nd gtrader look at them ??? it was a large order sent in and for sure crispy minty cards in that box, so why not take care of this in house??? now how is the credibility seen if a card goes from trimmed to a 9 or 10?? everyone mentions the fact that they send in these cards and keep getting grades jacked higher..how then does it go for the "small" submitters that don't know who to call or that they can even call and speak to joe?? all these horror stories sort of upset me a bit... I actually started getting my cards graded years ago really just to protect them a bit better, not caring about their grades, as whatever i had i always wanted to keep and not ever sell.. sorry for ranting, just a bit disillusioned now...

rbdjr1 · August 6, 2009 4:43AM

........................ I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry this happened to you!

All kidding aside, that really sucks. Because I'm certain that you know what a "razor blazer" gem is.

I retired my #1 all-time (still #1, I can't believe it, but it is!) 1976 Topps baseball PSA registry set a few years ago. I cannot begin to tell you how many cards it took to obtain 100s of PSA 10s for that set. And the passion this series held (still does!) for me!

And when you obtain a "sure-shot blazer 10" and it popped as a EOT (especially when you pulled it out of a case! Yikes!).

I'm pissed-off just hearing about it!

......................... I feel your pain!

......................... My goodness! The dollars I would have given-up for a Ken Reitz 10!

(I had every St. Louis Cardinal 1976 Topps PSA 10 possible, except Ken Reitz and Keith Hernandez)

......................... Do not know how many EOTs you got, hope it is only a few? (...if so, just resub them! if more than a few, maybe you should do the Orlando thing?)

rd

P.S. I miss Noodles at the Bellagio (...just love that place! best wonton soup on the planet!)

Pink Floyd - Money

Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here

ymarea · August 6, 2009 4:54AM

tunahead08,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it. Honest!

nightcrawler · August 6, 2009 5:15AM

The thing that bothers me about this, is the fact that these mistakes seem to be made often. Did someone say that PSA gives some sort of voucher for cards they consider EOT? And who pays when it's obviously their mistake? I sure wouldn't want to see trimmed cards slip through though.

That Dick Towle interview still has me shaking my head.

ymarea · August 6, 2009 5:23AM

<< The thing that bothers me about this, is the fact that these mistakes seem to be made often. Did someone say that PSA gives some sort of voucher for cards they consider EOT? And who pays when it's obviously their mistake? I sure wouldn't want to see trimmed cards slip through though.

That Dick Towle interview still has me shaking my head. >>

No voucher is given for cards returned "evid of trimming."

ROCKDJRW · August 6, 2009 5:24AM

First a man and now a trimmer??!! its been a tough week Felicia

nightcrawler · August 6, 2009 5:28AM

It must be difficult for PSA to explain how this type of mistake can happen so often... Maybe that's why they don't even try.

tunahead08 · August 6, 2009 6:00AM

<< tunahead08,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it. Honest! >>

No worries, sorry for being a dink :-D

CapeMOGuy · August 6, 2009 6:48AM

Mark me down as another who had an EOT card, resubmitted, and got a graded card back. And this was a card from a pack I bought off the counter when I was a kid, not one I bought in the secondary market. I KNOW it was not trimmed, I have owned it for @%*& years.

gumbyfan · August 6, 2009 6:52AM

<< I have owned it for @%*& years. >>

2587 years? WOW! (I think your shift key was stuck)

For a man your age, you seem to get around the internet alright. Good for you!

I'm a Trimmer Dont buy from me!!

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