Cleaned coin? If a coin exhibits cartwheeling luster...

zap1111 · August 3, 2009 12:05PM

does this necessarily mean that it still retains its original skin? In other words, does a cleaning remove a coin's ability to cartwheel? I have a few capped bust halves that still cartwheel (quite a bit on a couple of them) around the stars and other letters/devices around the outer edge. I'm trying to grade them - would an XF still cartwheel, yet have a dulled, non-lustrous center? If they're not still original coins, what kind of cleaning might they have had? Thanks for the help!
zap

fruitloops · August 3, 2009 12:28PM

I actually have a orgininal coin that some who haven't seen it in hand who think its cleaned, when it in fact isn't.

It also has luster around the protected areas, however the difference between a cleaned coin with this halo effect and a semi PL coin is immediately seen in hand. I think with a lightly cleaned coin you will still have cartwheel luster, if the coin is really cleaned harshly it will have that dull washed out look, a light clean may be from a light wipe as well, leaving small hairlines. You can also get hairlines on coins from circulation, generally the way to tell the difference is hairlines from a cleaning will all go in one direction..

Notice the halo around the stars...this can happen to original coins as well, you just have to see it in hand.

zap1111 · August 3, 2009 1:01PM

Fruitloops,

Thanks for the informative answer. Most of mine look like a light wipe, judging from the hairlines.

COALPORTER · August 3, 2009 1:02PM

If you have an cbh in xf that still cartwheels - maybe it has been wizzed.?

zap1111 · August 3, 2009 1:09PM

I really don't think they've been whizzed. I surely hope not! Would a whizzed coin still emit light from deep within like an original luster? And cartwheel like an unc Morgan can?

kaz · August 3, 2009 1:25PM

I don't think whizzing will cartwheel, because it tends to be done in one direction. You wind up with a bizarre pattern. metal flow in a radial direction is responsible for the cartwheel effect, as I understand it.

Cam40 · August 3, 2009 2:38PM

really it takes quite abit of wear to kill all the luster,or
if cleaned in the wrong cleaning solution, and most are the wrong cleaning solution for coins,
that can kill luster pretty fast, much faster that ordinary honest wear.

zap1111 · August 3, 2009 3:01PM

Based on the advice so far, I think I'm looking at coins that were lightly cleaned, but not dipped. This has been a big help - thanks!

tahoe98 · August 4, 2009 2:10AM

.......just be thankful no one "whizzed" ON the coin.

coinkat · August 14, 2009 11:40AM

ttt

TennesseeDave · August 14, 2009 12:46PM

I think a coin can be lightly cleaned and still exhibit luster in and around the devices(Stars,date etc.)
If the coin still has luster in the fields that "cartwheels"as the coin is tilted back and forth in the light,I think it is a pretty good indicator that the coin has not been cleaned and is in at least low AU condition.

7Jaguars · August 14, 2009 10:58PM

No way to tell that the coin pictured has not been cleaned and then retoned - a lot can happen in nearly 180 years! I really don't like assertions like this. IMO it looks to have circulated (obviously), possibly cleaned and retoned and the toning pattern is not proof of anything. And the bottom line is that it is still a very nice coin.

As far as the original question, cartwheeling presence does not mean the coin may not have been cleaned, just not heavily. We all know that heavy dipping will eventually "burn down" the cartwheeling and other luster, but if it is not terminal some of the carthwheeling may be retained.

ambro51 · August 15, 2009 12:00AM

If you see that cartwheel effect extend onto the portrait or letters......its artificial.

Real cartwheel luster is *only* on the fields, easy to form that when the die is created at the mint, but impossible to recreate on an individual coin after it is gone.

Cleaned coin? If a coin exhibits cartwheeling luster...

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