SGC Card Grading

mexpo75 · June 21, 2009 10:34AM

Hi, I am sure this has probably been asked before, but what is the opinion on SGC in grading vintage cards? Especially older, (before 1960) football. Thanks.

Bosox1976 · June 21, 2009 10:52AM

Rock solid.

jamesgotpoorman · June 21, 2009 10:56AM

Plus.... they look good with the black backing....

mexpo75 · June 21, 2009 11:28AM

so would I be safe to send in to PSA for a crossover and expect to get same grade? ie. sgc 8 = PSA 8?

Thanks

jamesgotpoorman · June 21, 2009 11:44AM

It would be anywhere from SGC 86 - SGC 92..... Just like PSA where a graded may see something that another missed..

Grade Quality Description
100 PRISTINE A "virtually flawless" card. 50/50 centering, crisp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear under magnification.
98 GEM 10 55/45 or better centering, sharp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear. A slight print spot visible under close scrutiny is allowable if it does not detract from the aesthetics of the card.
96 MINT 9 60/40 or betting centering, sharp focus and four sharp corners*. A minor flaw may exist upon close examination. A minor flaw may be, but is not limited to: a slight nick to one corner, a small gloss break or surface scratch, a minor print line or minor refractor line, a minor focus or color imperfection, or a small print spot.
92 NM/MT+ 8.5 65/35 or better centering, four sharp corners*. A few minor flaws may exist upon close examination. A minor flaw may be, but is not limited to: a slight nick to one corner, a small gloss break or surface scratch, a minor print line or minor refractor line, a minor focus or color imperfection, or a small print spot.
88 NM/MT 8 65/35 or better centering, corners sharp to the naked eye but may exhibit slight wear under closer examination. A few small flaws may exist upon close examination. A small flaw may be, but is not limited to: very minor wear on one corner, a gloss break or surface scratch, a print line or refractor line, a focus or color imperfection, or a print spot.
86 NM+ 7.5 70/30 or better centering, a few small flaws may exist upon close examination. A small flaw may be, but is not limited to: very minor wear on one corner, a gloss break or surface scratch, a print line or refractor line, a focus or color imperfection, or a print spot.
84 NRMT 7 70/30 or better centering, slight wear on some corners, minor scratching, some print spots or speckling, and print lines or refractor lines are acceptable. Card may exhibit a slightly skewed (diamond) cut.
80 EX/NM 6 75/25 or better centering, slight fuzzing of corners may be evident, skewed cut may be more evident, focus or register may be off, and slight notching of edges may exist.
70 EX+ 5.5 A 60 EX 5 card with higher grade centering or corners.
60 EX 5 80/20 or better centering, minor rounding or fuzzing of corners, roughness or chipping along edge (no layering), one VERY slight surface or "spider" crease may exist on one side of the card, gloss may be lost from surface with some scratching that does not detract from the aesthetics of the card.
50 VG/EX 4 85/15 or better centering, corners are slightly rounded with modest surface wear. Light hairline crease may show on one or both sides. A light tear or surface break may exist.
40 VG 3 90/10 or better centering, corners more rounded--but not excessive, stronger creasing may exist. Poorer focus, registration, and discoloration, and staining are more noticeable.
30 GOOD 2 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits one or more of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tear, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss.
20 FAIR 1.5 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits several of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, a small portion of the card may be missing.
10 POOR 1 This card usually exhibits many of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, small portions of the card may be missing.

caughtlooking · June 21, 2009 10:06PM

Not a very scientific sample, but I'm about 2 for 10 in getting equal or higher grades from PSA on SGC cards submitted. As a result, I no longer will buy SGC cards and "expect" that they will crossover. May happen but you may simply get the card returned with a "did not meet minimum" explanation. The cards in SGC holders do look great and I think they do a nice job but the realized prices for vintage cards still do not come close to PSA levels on similarly graded cards and the risk of not crossing over has left me firmly in the PSA camp. Just one man's opinion...

IchiroDeported · June 22, 2009 3:53AM

i love their holders and they are superb for vintage.

perkdog · June 22, 2009 5:36AM

Ryan ( Bigdaddybowman ) is a huge SGC guy, he and I disagree on this but IMO I think SGC is more lenient towards OC cards than PSA is, I do love the holders though.

yakbigham · June 22, 2009 6:23AM

I recently had 20 card football lot pop from SGC of early 60's and 50's and I think they were very fair with there grading overall.
Here are some of my examples, only three were on my last order but

1960 ron mix

1957 Unitas

1957 dick lane

1933 thorpe

1956 brown

1964 buchanan

Sorry for the link but this is all I know how to do.

I still like PSA better because of the registry but overall I think grading standards are similar. Check out the scans . I actually think my thorpe is much nicer than a 92 in my opion.

Bosox1976 · June 22, 2009 11:33AM

Wow - nice Thorpe.

divecchia · June 22, 2009 1:58PM

Not that I'm any kinda expert on crossovers, but if you buy high quality cards for the grade, it will usually crossover. PSA to SGC or SGC to PSA. If you buy a card that looks like it barely made the grade, then there's a good chance it won't crossover. As far as the SGC company goes I believe it is a good grading company equal to PSA in many respects.

Donato

fiveniner · June 27, 2009 12:24AM

SGC has Very good standards.

otwcards · June 28, 2009 12:33AM

I'll add my two cents...

There is a difference between PSA and SGC specifically in the EX to NM range in that PSA has qualifiers and can apply them to a card (accurately or not) while SGC is a "net" grade. Accordingly, within the realm of the EX to NM, there is often a bit of leniency or tolerance given by SGC. An example would be a “minty” sharp card that is centered slightly worse than 70/30 which would probably get a PSA 9 (OC), while SGC would most likely put the same card in an SGC 84. The result is the same net grade, but the PSA purists suggest that the SGC card is OC while the PSA card is accurately graded even though, for registry purposes, the PSA 9 (OC) counts as a PSA 7 (the same as the SGC 84).

The common complaint is that you can usually buy a PSA card sight unseen and know by the grade whether it is off center while this is not the case with a sight unseen SGC card. For collectors that are critical of centering, this is a significant difference.

jivan · June 28, 2009 6:56AM

In my experience with psa and sgc, i think that sgc is much tougher on centering.. can only use this theory on my 69 basketball... I had about 800 over the last year sent in to sgc and was told and shown what would grade 7 or better, my min requirement.... they seemed a bit tougher than psa as i have bought many on ebay and found that 7's with no qualifiers were all over the place.. even had one unseld with a 100/0 r/l back... sitting here with about about 1,000 of these cards graded, only ones that are a lil bothersome are the psa's.. now this is only my 2 cents worth, so let the bashing begin lol... have a great day.ivan

jackstraw · June 29, 2009 11:27PM

Your Thorpe looks awesome but that label being
crooked would absolutly drive me nuts.

cardbender · July 2, 2009 3:08PM

<< In my experience with psa and sgc, i think that sgc is much tougher on centering.. can only use this theory on my 69 basketball... I had about 800 over the last year sent in to sgc and was told and shown what would grade 7 or better, my min requirement.... they seemed a bit tougher than psa as i have bought many on ebay and found that 7's with no qualifiers were all over the place.. even had one unseld with a 100/0 r/l back... sitting here with about about 1,000 of these cards graded, only ones that are a lil bothersome are the psa's.. now this is only my 2 cents worth, so let the bashing begin lol... have a great day.ivan >>

I would tend to agree with all of the above as far as SGC/PSA and their grading of tallboys. I've seen way too many PSA 9's with obvious corner wear. I've seen far too many PSA 8's with pressed out tiny corner creases.

I have many SGC 88's and 92's that blow away many PSA 9's.
I've sent in over 100 cards to SGC and about 250 cards to PSA over the years, so my sample size is fairly large to support these claims. Of course the PSA set registry is what is driving the tallboys to PSA.

In all fairness to PSA, I do have many PSA 8's that are stunners too.

IchiroDeported · July 3, 2009 1:20AM

wow. some stunners! white bordered cards look amazing with the black holder.

jackstraw · July 3, 2009 3:08AM

Some nice looking cards but all but the Alcindor are old grades.
I have seen alot of dogs in both holders. As far as creases
pressed out in PSA holders, not sure how you can see that?
Are you saying you see the crease after its been graded?

cardbender · July 3, 2009 1:01PM

<< Some nice looking cards but all but the Alcindor are old grades.
I have seen alot of dogs in both holders. As far as creases
pressed out in PSA holders, not sure how you can see that?
Are you saying you see the crease after its been graded? >>

Yeah, most of these are older graded cards by SGC. But they are all very high end and I sent them in myself. I sent in the tallboys to SGC around 1998-99, before PSA was slabbing them up.

I agree in that some older grades by SGC don't stand up to today's standards, but not all. Many are very high end. It really helps to see them in person. It's hard to judge from a scan.

On corner creases, yes you can easily see them in many cards that are slabbed up. Just take out a 10x loupe with a good light source.

A friend of mine recently brought over a '59 Bob Gibson RC in a PSA 8 holder. Judging by the font, it was graded in '97-99 range. So it was probably graded by Mike Baker. This card had two corners that were dinged and showed plenty of wear. Also another corner had a crease that you could see was smoothed down.
Honestly, this card is easily in my top five of all-time overgraded cards I've ever seen. It really should've been a 6 at best.

fkw · July 6, 2009 4:59PM

nuff said

WinPitcher · July 7, 2009 11:26PM

Really? One example is enough?

I'm sure everyone here could find one SGC card that was overgraded too.

Steve

Bottom9th · July 8, 2009 10:53AM

<< I recently had 20 card football lot pop from SGC of early 60's and 50's and I think they were very fair with there grading overall.
Here are some of my examples, only three were on my last order but

1960 ron mix

1957 Unitas

1957 dick lane

1933 thorpe

1956 brown

1964 buchanan

Sorry for the link but this is all I know how to do.

I still like PSA better because of the registry but overall I think grading standards are similar. Check out the scans . I actually think my thorpe is much nicer than a 92 in my opion. >>

Wow...absolutely gorgeous!

jackstraw · July 11, 2009 6:35AM

crossover or crack & submit?

cardbender · July 11, 2009 9:05PM

<< I recently had 20 card football lot pop from SGC of early 60's and 50's and I think they were very fair with there grading overall.
Here are some of my examples, only three were on my last order but

1960 ron mix

1957 Unitas

1957 dick lane

1933 thorpe

1956 brown

1964 buchanan

Sorry for the link but this is all I know how to do.

I still like PSA better because of the registry but overall I think grading standards are similar. Check out the scans . I actually think my thorpe is much nicer than a 92 in my opion. >>

Dan, your Unitas RC is the nicest I've seen outside a 9 or 96 holder. It looks like if it had slightly better top to bottom centering it would be sitting in a 96 holder. Just a stunning card.

Your others aren't too shabby either. Your Thorpe looks like it has a small tick on the top right, otherwise it would be a 96 also. Outstanding card!

I think SGC might be a bit more lenient on snow than PSA in all honesty.

yakbigham · July 12, 2009 12:08AM

Thanks , I think your dead on with you comments.

There is a PSA 9 Unitas on Ebay that is nice, but I think my SGC version has better centering and there is no way it has better corners.

I think what is comes down to is that SGC and PSA are both lenient on different aspects but overall there very compartable overall.

SS · July 12, 2009 1:02AM

Does SGC give preferential treatment to high volume submitters like PSA does?

Will they put my NM/MT card in an SGC 88 or 92 case if I sub it, but put the same card in a SGC 98 case if a high volume submitter sends it in?

jivan · July 12, 2009 2:00AM

<< Does SGC give preferential treatment to high volume submitters like PSA does?

Will they put my NM/MT card in an SGC 88 or 92 case if I sub it, but put the same card in a SGC 98 case if a high volume submitter sends it in? >>

yes, i think if you send in more than 100 cards, all your cards will receive 96's and more than 200 cards, all your cards receive as 98-100.. WHAT A FREAKING STUPID QUESTION !!!!!!!

Brick · July 12, 2009 3:39AM

I sent in a 55 Koufax and a 52 Pafco on different submissions. Both cards received grades 2 to 4 grades higher than I expected. I wonder who they mistook me for?

SS · July 12, 2009 7:49AM

<< WHAT A FREAKING STUPID QUESTION !!!!!!! >>

Buy any 80s card graded PSA 10 from 4 sharp corners or PSA set guy and then tell me how stupid my question is.

Now, can anyone answer my question? I really would like to know if SGC also does this.

jackstraw · July 12, 2009 11:13AM

Who are the high volume SGC submitters?

otwcards · July 13, 2009 9:30AM

<< Buy any 80s card graded PSA 10 from 4 sharp corners or PSA set guy and then tell me how stupid my question is. >>

ANY card? I'm sure we can find more than our share of examples of overgraded cards received by average Joes, too. Just when given a sampling size such as 4SC or PSASG, it is much easier to find the dogs. Do bulk submitters get some "gimmes?" Certainly. But I would suggest that if 20 different people sent in 100 cards each of modern material that had been culled and inspected, the percentage of "over graded" cards would be about the same as if a bulk submitter sent in the exact same 2000 cards.

Feel free to dispute it, but until you can provide FACTS to back your accusations, I'll stand by my statements as I base them on years and years of experience and first hand observations.

yakbigham · July 13, 2009 2:00PM

I agree with Scott, if you submitted 1000 cards you find alot of cards that are overgraded or even undergraded in you opion. But that's what grading is , its one person opion. To say large submitters get gimmies over the regular joe is just silly.

Mickey71 · July 14, 2009 7:22AM

SGC's biggest problem is their serious inconsistencies with centering. There are about 5 or 6 Mantles' on EBAY right now that point this out perfectly. I believe there is about 3 60's and a 65 that are graded an 84-------no way and I mean know way JOSE. The centering on one of the 1960's is about 90-10 top to bottom. What this creates is a very low confidence level when buying any SGC card that is not right in front of you. Buying SGC sight unseen is tougher than buying PSA in my experience. Plus PSA sells for more....period with a few exceptions.----Just to add: I do send some stuff to SGC and their customer service is good, not great.

fattymacs · July 14, 2009 1:04PM

Why would you submit to SGC, if you collect Mantle, Mays, and Aaron? You've said they don't command the $$$ PSA does and it's a crap shoot on centering. I'm not being a wise azz, I"m just wondering.

Mickey71 · July 14, 2009 2:34PM

Fattymacs,
I collect many different cards, not just Mantle, Mays and Aaron. I have sent many cards to SGC but my high dollar stuff goes mostly to PSA.
Also, Ebay and every major auction house agrees that for Mantle, Mays 50's and 60's PSA is no doubt the way to go.

obusek99 · July 15, 2009 7:54AM

I'll say this about SGC. My brother and I purchased a set of 1941 Double Play cards a while ago. Sent them all to SGC for grading because most people at the time felt SGC was better with vintage baseball. All cards turned out to be counterfeit. Not only did SGC refund half of our grading fees, they were also willing to fly in the grader to Pennsylvania to testify at the hearing that followed when we pressed charges against the seller of the cards who of course went AWOL after selling them. So, me, I have no issues with them, they were very easy and outgoing to work with.

jackstraw · July 16, 2009 3:31AM

<< I'll say this about SGC. My brother and I purchased a set of 1941 Double Play cards a while ago. Sent them all to SGC for grading because most people at the time felt SGC was better with vintage baseball. All cards turned out to be counterfeit. Not only did SGC refund half of our grading fees, they were also willing to fly in the grader to Pennsylvania to testify at the hearing that followed when we pressed charges against the seller of the cards who of course went AWOL after selling them. So, me, I have no issues with them, they were very easy and outgoing to work with. >>

Do you know someone in the company? To do all that for a collector who paid for the authentication of an item seems like alot.
After all isn't this the reason why we have these companies? To grade and authenticate our items? Not to return our fees
when we buy bad stuff but to inform us when we do. Whats next? I bought a card as mint and its nm so here is your fees back.

otwcards · July 16, 2009 11:12AM

<< 

<< I'll say this about SGC. My brother and I purchased a set of 1941 Double Play cards a while ago. Sent them all to SGC for grading because most people at the time felt SGC was better with vintage baseball. All cards turned out to be counterfeit. Not only did SGC refund half of our grading fees, they were also willing to fly in the grader to Pennsylvania to testify at the hearing that followed when we pressed charges against the seller of the cards who of course went AWOL after selling them. So, me, I have no issues with them, they were very easy and outgoing to work with. >>

Do you know someone in the company? To do all that for a collector who paid for the authentication of an item seems like alot.
After all isn't this the reason why we have these companies? To grade and authenticate our items? Not to return our fees
when we buy bad stuff but to inform us when we do. Whats next? I bought a card as mint and its nm so here is your fees back. >>

My guess is that Obusek99 (Jason) lives near Pittsburgh and at least one of the SGC graders at the time is from nearby. It would not have been much for him to have gone "home" to testify...

BigDaddyBowman · July 17, 2009 12:48AM

<< Do you know someone in the company? To do all that for a collector who paid for the authentication of an item seems like alot.
After all isn't this the reason why we have these companies? To grade and authenticate our items? Not to return our fees
when we buy bad stuff but to inform us when we do. Whats next? I bought a card as mint and its nm so here is your fees back. >>

---------------------------------------------------------------

I think its great that SGC would show enough care for their customer that they would be willing to testify in court on his behalf..I also think its great that they refunded him half of his money on his submission....this demonstrates SGC's great customer service. Sure they could have stuck him with a bill for hundreds of dollars for their service, but they obviously were giving the guy a good break instead of sticking it to him again.

jackstraw · July 17, 2009 7:54AM

<< 

<< Do you know someone in the company? To do all that for a collector who paid for the authentication of an item seems like alot.
After all isn't this the reason why we have these companies? To grade and authenticate our items? Not to return our fees
when we buy bad stuff but to inform us when we do. Whats next? I bought a card as mint and its nm so here is your fees back. >>

---------------------------------------------------------------

I think its great that SGC would show enough care for their customer that they would be willing to testify in court on his behalf..I also think its great that they refunded him half of his money on his submission....this demonstrates SGC's great customer service. Sure they could have stuck him with a bill for hundreds of dollars for their service, but they obviously were giving the guy a good break instead of sticking it to him again. >>

So do they do that with every customer that buys an expensive set or card that is fake or altered? They didn't for me when I submitted about 2500 worth of 55 Parkhurst and all came back recolored?
So I guess we can call that preferential treatment?

otwcards · July 17, 2009 10:13AM

<< 

<< 

<< Do you know someone in the company? To do all that for a collector who paid for the authentication of an item seems like alot.
After all isn't this the reason why we have these companies? To grade and authenticate our items? Not to return our fees
when we buy bad stuff but to inform us when we do. Whats next? I bought a card as mint and its nm so here is your fees back. >>

---------------------------------------------------------------

I think its great that SGC would show enough care for their customer that they would be willing to testify in court on his behalf..I also think its great that they refunded him half of his money on his submission....this demonstrates SGC's great customer service. Sure they could have stuck him with a bill for hundreds of dollars for their service, but they obviously were giving the guy a good break instead of sticking it to him again. >>

So do they do that with every customer that buys an expensive set or card that is fake or altered? They didn't for me when I submitted about 2500 worth of 55 Parkhurst and all came back recolored?
So I guess we can call that preferential treatment? >>

I would contend that there's a significant difference between a submission of altered cards and a counterfeited set of cards. The altered cards require a grader to examine each and every one and notate the alteration for rejection purposes. In the case of a counterfeit set, it would be quite possible for the grader to examine a portion of the lot and determine that the group is counterfeit and thus would not require the same intensive scrutiny and man hours that the altered submission would require -- hence the rebate on the fees.

I wouldn't consider such as preferential treatment as much as I would call it a good customer service practice.

Would one expect a discount if a submission was so beat up that it would grade POOR and the grader only had to assign a single grade because every card had significant paper loss. A professional opinion was still rendered after examining the ENTIRE submission individually.

SGC Card Grading

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