Here is some latest indications of where the market is ?

jdimmick · June 14, 2009 11:24AM

I just listed a few better date coins on E-bay with .99 no reserve auctions, and here is how they fared:

1922 No D PCGS VF-30 Nice and problem free just recently back just sold for 1075.00 Greysheet in Vf is 1175.00 and that is with the recent drop in price this past printing.

1903-0 Morgan $ PCGS Ms-65 Nice original, lusterous problem free coin just graded from an old collection just sold for 511.00 greysheet is 675.00

1909-s Indian PCGS Vf-30 Decent coin nothing great, but nice and accurate. sold the other day at 625.00 Greysheet just went to 705.00

1885-cc Morgan PCGS MS-63 Same collection as above Morgan $ sold for 487.00 greysheet is 555.00

I recently had a PCGS-25 1909-s VDB priced at 100.00 below greysheet and not a sinlge person was intrested at the past three shows. I sold it to a flea market dealer in town today for 975.00. Again a nice smooth problem free coin.

braddick · June 14, 2009 11:26AM

Those are some great coins at very inexpensive prices.

Thanks for the tap on the shoulder. I thought the market was just fine but now? Maybe not so much.

commoncents05 · June 14, 2009 11:30AM

Dang, I wish I would have seen them!

-Paul

DoubleEagle59 · June 14, 2009 11:31AM

some added info from north of the border.

Last 3 coin shows in Ontario have been absolutely pitiful.

Nobodies buying.

Dealers tell me customers are only asking for silver and gold bullion (bars and/or coins) and only buying coins from their 'junk' boxes.

In a couple of weeks we have the large Toronto Torex coin show.

Some super high grade material there (probably from a couple of dealers trying to unload their inventory).

Should be interesting to see if they get more than one bid on each item

stinkinlincoln · June 14, 2009 11:32AM

It sounds more like a correction in the market is taking place, rather than a decline or depression within the hobby. For awhile there I was amazed at some prices and now, like your coins, they seem to be stabilizing some what.

Not knocking your coins or anything, just my thoughts regarding whats going on and what might have happened with your coins. Got any pics of them?

SeattleSlammer · June 14, 2009 11:40AM

I'd have to see your auctions (especially quality of your pics/presentation) to know whether or not these are actually reflecting broader market conditions.

My experience is that eye appealing examples (PCGS or NGC) of all coins remain solid (at least using greysheet as a yardstick). Indeed, those coins usually even do well at retail pricing levels.

Those are greysheet "ask" prices, right?

TwoSides2aCoin · June 14, 2009 11:42AM

I don't mean to sound like a smart axe but if you'd have spammed us first, you could have gotten more money. Who cares if these people don't like it here. We're family and should get a heads up for those good coins on ScumBay.

BAJJERFAN · June 14, 2009 11:43AM

Plus you likely had to take a 10% kick in the nads for eBay/PP fees too.

AUandAG · June 14, 2009 11:47AM

Fantastic news (at least for us buyers out there!)

Won't be long and we'll be talking about the "good ole days" when we could get an 85-cc for under $500!

Nobody ever promised that coins would go up in value forever. Has to be some fall backs once in a while and
now's the time to be looking and maybe buying!

bob

ilikebuffaloes · June 14, 2009 11:47AM

eBay can be tricky, timing is very important. I'm not saying that your indications are wrong (Baltimore show write-ups say that show was slow) but this might be a bad week to sell anything.

Graduations, vacations and the economy are all factors. I didn't sell much on eBay in the summer months because more people were out and away from their computers.

Did you try the BST or any local dealers? Just a thought.

stman · June 14, 2009 11:49AM

I think where the market is...... is to not hold no reserve auctions on ebay at this time, if you have money invested in the coins. For the folks that just take consignments
they really can't lose.

jdimmick · June 14, 2009 11:50AM

Most of the time I foget to post a link here on the BST, but there should be a enough buyers on e-bay in general to garner suffient bidding with out the forum(no offense).

Here is the item # to the 22 no d 180367967442

Here is the item number to the 03-o $ 180367962404

Here is another PCGS 1890-s Morgan from the same collection that sold light as well the other day 170342418273

The 09-s Indian was about 2 weeks ago I cant find a link and is not in the completed links , it will take me a moment to find it

WTCG · June 14, 2009 11:55AM

Those examples in my opinion do not show a price decrease in the market, especially with consideration to the Morgan Dollars. The prices those coins realized are for the most part in line with what they are worth wholesale. All four coins as cited can qualify as "widgets", for a lack of a better term, so unless they have compelling eye appeal or are obviously undergraded those prices realized are adequate.

Consider the 1903-O Morgan...the current high sight-seen bid in MS65 is at $470.00. If that coin sold for $511 it would actually be exceeding expectations.

jdimmick · June 14, 2009 11:58AM

I didnt take them to another dealer, becuase I am a dealer myself, plus the other dealers around here are out of money. Nobody at the local shows here are buying much unless they can steal it (unless of cousre its gold/silver). Believe it or not I actually came out ahead on these becuase I bought them raw and holdered them myself , however, had I purchased these coins at say 20% back of cdn(which) in some collectors eyes I would be making a low ball offer, I would have lost a good bit.

I have been selling on e-bay for over 10yrs and That includes some great coins, avg coins and junk and I can tell you with out a doubt it is a buyers market on lots of material and things are softening at a fast pace. You are never going to get a true report from some dealers becuase there life depends on selling you coins. The local show reports for the most part are the same from what I see and hear on better coins.

Now, on the same hand my OTC business in the shop has been great the past month, but that is Gold & silver bullion ,, and lower priced gift items like silver eagles, proof sets, etc. Coins under 150 bucks seem to sell quite good.

CoinJunkie · June 14, 2009 12:02PM

1922 No D

1903-O

1980-S

jdimmick · June 14, 2009 12:06PM

wei,

I agree with each of these coins being widgets, but my question too you is somebody like myself uses the greysheet as a reference to buy and sell in the local shop , shows etc. (And I am well aware of the sheet is not accurrate both on the low side of certain things and high on the other) but I dont have access to the national market scene that dealers that operate nationally due as far as pricing, what are you referencing as far as 470.00 as current wholesale. The Blue sheet ? is lists 460.00

jim

Swampboy · June 14, 2009 12:20PM

Apropos the thread title...

Someone just got a very inexpensive upgrade to their proof JFK collection.
Noticed too late.

a member's closed ebay auction from today

garsmith · June 14, 2009 12:22PM

Just shows that you shouldn't live by the grey sheets

jdimmick · June 14, 2009 12:24PM

I agree 100%

Jim

Jinx86 · June 14, 2009 12:24PM

Right now I'm in the market to buy coins. Theres alot of people right now that need the cash and Im bidding. I do think this is a market correction in some cases, since I've started collecting back when I was 15....just 8 years ago prices have doubled in many cases.

InYHWHWeTrust · June 14, 2009 12:30PM

If Jim says it I believe him. J6P-numi-buyer is starting to/&getting squeezed in this economy.

advalorem · June 14, 2009 12:36PM

Jim, if you compare those prices to ha.com recent realized-auction prices, then aren't the prices you received on Ebay fairly decent? Ebay buyers will get 3% if they go thru Ebates.com on the buy side. The sell side has a lot of costs/fees. But Ebay gets the seller cash quick.

I think comparing the greysheet is not realistic when you can get any of those items at recent auction (buy price + 15%) prices. Greysheet isn't appropriate for any valuation of buying or selling - in my view. Everything but top quality merchandise is trading well under greysheet....

Of course, I am buying in believing that one should be buying gold bullion.

Discretionary items such as coins, 2nd cars are going to take a bath in a tough economy such as this. An economy that is only going to get worse as zero jobs are being created; the national debt increases by the minute; and interest rates have been skyrocketing in the past couple of weeks.

advalorem · June 14, 2009 12:53PM

Here is Jim's results vs. HA most recent results (PCGS is not equivalent to NGC, so NGC is not considered). I think
the results aren't that far off of the current market prices for each of the items.

1922 No D PCGS VF-30 Nice and problem free just recently back just sold for 1075.00
HA Results - Mar 27, 2009: 1922 No D 1C Strong Reverse VF30 PCGS $1,380.00 (includes BP)

1903-0 Morgan $ PCGS Ms-65 511.00
HA Results - Jun 9, 2009: $575.00 (includes BP)

1909-s Indian PCGS Vf-30 625.00
HA Results - May 2, 2009: $632.50 (includes BP )

1885-cc Morgan PCGS MS-63 $487.00
HA Results May 3, 2009: $546.25 (includes BP )

I recently had a PCGS-25 1909-s VDB I sold it to a flea market dealer in town today for 975.00.
HA Results - Mar 27, 2009: $1,092.50 (includes BP )

cladking · June 14, 2009 1:02PM

Even if these declines were real I'd maintain that 10 or 20% drops
in the coin market are nearly insignificant. In the past drops have
come in a blinding flash and tended to be much steeper.

291fifth · June 14, 2009 1:10PM

As I have said in other threads, the near total lack of viable investment alternatives is cushioning the fall of the coin market.

Do you trust your stockbroker to recommend anything other than what will line his pocket the fastest?

Do you like those CD rates of well under 2%?

How about some "secured" bonds? Have you seen what good those did for Chrysler and GM holders?

TomB · June 14, 2009 1:13PM

You may have been hurt because you did not specify a return policy in your auctions.

WTCG · June 14, 2009 4:25PM

<< <i>wei,

I agree with each of these coins being widgets, but my question too you is somebody like myself uses the greysheet as a reference to buy and sell in the local shop , shows etc. (And I am well aware of the sheet is not accurrate both on the low side of certain things and high on the other) but I dont have access to the national market scene that dealers that operate nationally due as far as pricing, what are you referencing as far as 470.00 as current wholesale. The Blue sheet ? is lists 460.00

jim >>

The Greysheet is for the most part fairly accurate but there are a few series where the Greysheet figures are either too low (even today despite what some forum members may say) or overly optimistic. This is a subject I can get into deeper later, but for now let's just say that it is important for dealers to know when the Greysheet may not be revealing the whole story on pricing.

The $470.00 sight-seen bid is from CCE and it is accurate to the minute.

illini420 · June 14, 2009 4:51PM

Took a quick look at the auctions referenced here and don't think the prices realized were that bad. Sure there were low, but not horrible.

That said, I really think that the photos of them could have been a little better (no offense intended) and if they were you may have done better. Of course, if the coins were not great coins for the grade, then a less than perfect photo probably helps. I've dabbled in eBay selling from time to time and when I get a great picture of a great looking coin, it'll usually sell very strongly. I know that when I'm bidding on a coin that the seller has very large photos that show all of the details well, I'll bid very very strongly if I like it. However, if the photos are small or not well lit, or otherwise substandard to where I can't see all of the details closely, I may still bid, but I'll bid low assuming that the coin won't be all there once I get it in hand.

droopyd · June 14, 2009 6:12PM

One person's auctions does not an entire market make.

Nysoto · June 14, 2009 11:54PM

I would estimate the draped bust, heraldic eagle half dollar market is down 25% (from major auctions) from its peak 1-2 years ago. Some retailers are still asking high prices, but their inventory is not moving. Ebay has never been strong in this market for $2000+ coins, the better coins are sold elsewhere. I have been on ebay 10 years, 5-10 years ago there were some very nice raw VG-VF, DBH's including some rarities that could be purchased on ebay. It is now frustrating to look on ebay with the amount of chinese fakes, and overpriced problem BIN's. Very few nice DBH's appear on ebay in no reserve auctions. It is still worth looking for the occasional rarity that shows up, despite the fact that they are usually sold illegally from off-site offers.

The amount of chinese fakes on ebay has reduced the number of legitimate sellers and buyers. I would only sell coin on ebay with a value of $750 or less, for higher priced coins there are better options.

RedTiger · June 14, 2009 11:55PM

<< <i>Here is Jim's results vs. HA most recent results (PCGS is not equivalent to NGC, so NGC is not considered). I think
the results aren't that far off of the current market prices for each of the items.

1922 No D PCGS VF-30 Nice and problem free just recently back just sold for 1075.00
HA Results - Mar 27, 2009: 1922 No D 1C Strong Reverse VF30 PCGS $1,380.00 (includes BP)

1903-0 Morgan $ PCGS Ms-65 511.00
HA Results - Jun 9, 2009: $575.00 (includes BP)

1909-s Indian PCGS Vf-30 625.00
HA Results - May 2, 2009: $632.50 (includes BP )

1885-cc Morgan PCGS MS-63 $487.00
HA Results May 3, 2009: $546.25 (includes BP )

I recently had a PCGS-25 1909-s VDB I sold it to a flea market dealer in town today for 975.00.
HA Results - Mar 27, 2009: $1,092.50 (includes BP ) >>

So on average about 10% lower than recent Heritage results. With several data points, and popular coins being sold, the results are somewhat significant. As many have said, these results are an indication of the market, but not THE market. Price guides, including Greysheet have been slow to reflect the lower auction prices. WTCGs quote of a CCE price of $470 for the
1903-0 Morgan $ PCGS Ms-65 where greysheet is $675 is demonstrating what is now sometimes a wide, wide separation (30%) between sheet and what wholesale dealers are now paying. Sheet and wholesale used to be closer, like 10% back, or 15% back on coins like that.

Some other factors include that this week was a Baltimore show, where a good many dealers had a flat out bad show. This means that many of these dealers would not be interested in restocking from Ebay at back of sheet prices. A minor factor may have been the NBA finals.

Personally, I have seen more than a few coins listed at greysheet bid or slightly back of bid for retail sale with no takers. Collectors and dealers need to be aware of this because more than a few still think that buying at greysheet bid is a good price. It can be, but as the example of the 1903-O Morgan MS65 shows sometimes the sheet hasn't adjusted down to the new levels. For that coin, the typical auction result is closer to 15% to 20% back, and high dealer wholesale bid 30% back. An average dealer with access to CCE might offer about 40% back if someone want to sell them the coin, so that dealer can flip it to the high offer at 30% back. A collector might offer such a coin to a dealer and be shocked at what he considers a lowball offer at 40% back of bid--no it is where the current market is, and the sheet hasn't adjusted prices lower.

/edit to add a couple more guide prices for 1903-O Morgan MS65
PCGS Guide $700 with a down arrow
Numismedia retail $810

PonyExpress8 · June 15, 2009 12:46AM

That said, I really think that the photos of them could have been a little better (no offense intended) and if they were you may have done better. Of course, if the coins were not great coins for the grade, then a less than perfect photo probably helps. I've dabbled in eBay selling from time to time and when I get a great picture of a great looking coin, it'll usually sell very strongly. I know that when I'm bidding on a coin that the seller has very large photos that show all of the details well, I'll bid very very strongly if I like it. However, if the photos are small or not well lit, or otherwise substandard to where I can't see all of the details closely, I may still bid, but I'll bid low assuming that the coin won't be all there once I get it in hand.

In looking at the auction listings I tend to agree better photos would have helped your prices.

Also just an FYI, Ebay requires a full reverse slab photo as well under the new rules they implemented about 18 months ago. I had two auctions pulled in December because of this. Even though today you can probably see 25% of the graded coins still without a photo of the total slab reverse. IMHO a pretty stupid policy since all the info is on the obverse.

Sheet has been off for the past few months on Morgan Dollars in particular on the high side along with most recent series. It has always been problematic using sheet for any material from Barbers on back as well since you can't find nor buy original coins with sheet being consistently too low. Recently it's been getting closer on early coins but still not all that accurate.

Also, it's summer time so how much of this can be attributed to the normal slowdown between Memorial Day and Labor Day is hard to say but it is a factor.

crypto79 · June 15, 2009 1:17AM

FYI I won a NGC AU50 1909s indian for $675 at the market peak off EBay so 600+ for a VF in the crash seams strong to me. Congrats

Walkerguy21D · June 15, 2009 1:26AM

<< <i>FYI I won a NGC AU50 1909s indian for $675 at the market peak off EBay so 600+ for a VF in the crash seams strong to me. Congrats >>

It may also be an indication of 'too far, too fast', or that sheet prices on some coins got irrationally exuberant. I recall selling an AU55 '09S for around $575 or so, about two years ago, and this was well above AU50 pricing at the time.

Here is some latest indications of where the market is ?

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