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A comment on Chinese fakes.....
DoubleEagle59
Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm hearing endless stories how collectors and dealers (especially here in Canada) are getting 'burnt' with Chinese fakes.
Not by buying them from a picture (as an example, from an Ebay auction), but by buying them 'in hand'.
I'm truly amazed at this.
If you can't tell a Chinese fake from a genuine coin then it is definitely time to change hobbies and exit the coin business.
Granted, at arm's length it's very difficult to tell, but under magnification, anybody (young or old) should be able to see the difference.
Personally, I'm no expert by any means, but in every single Chinese fake I've seen (and I've probably seen 20 to 50 of them in the last 3 years) it is so simple, under 10X magnification, to tell the real from the fake.
Not by buying them from a picture (as an example, from an Ebay auction), but by buying them 'in hand'.
I'm truly amazed at this.
If you can't tell a Chinese fake from a genuine coin then it is definitely time to change hobbies and exit the coin business.
Granted, at arm's length it's very difficult to tell, but under magnification, anybody (young or old) should be able to see the difference.
Personally, I'm no expert by any means, but in every single Chinese fake I've seen (and I've probably seen 20 to 50 of them in the last 3 years) it is so simple, under 10X magnification, to tell the real from the fake.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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<< <i>Do collectors and dealers rely on TPGs less in Canada than in the US? >>
I don't think so, but I am shocked at how little some dealers and collectors know about grading and identification.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Perhaps not everyone carries a 10x loupe every time they go coin shopping. >>
Perhaps they should.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
these for the most part can be traced to origin if the feds or ebay cared
Perhaps coin dealer certification is needed? This can build on standardized training classes and exams.
Reference: Coin Links
Where does a person believe the super high quality fakes that get sent into the TPGs come from? Are they all U. S. made? How would a person determine point of origin? If someone spends some time talking off the record to grading service employees and the picture may look a lot different. Some of the fakes sent in to the services are high enough quality to fool 98% of collectors and 80% of dealers even with those armed with a loupe and a scale. Authentication is an ongoing battle. The counterfeiters have access to the same diagnostics, the same reference materials as the expert collectors.
<< <i>Congratulations on detecting those 20 to 30 fakes, but I do not feel reassured. Just because one person saw some fakes and was able to detect them, they feel like they can dismiss the problem? What about other fakes that may be of much higher quality, with correct weight and die struck, with correct diagnostics taking from commonly available reference materials?
Where does a person believe the super high quality fakes that get sent into the TPGs come from? Are they all U. S. made? How would a person determine point of origin? If someone spends some time talking off the record to grading service employees and the picture may look a lot different. Some of the fakes sent in to the services are high enough quality to fool 98% of collectors and 80% of dealers even with those armed with a loupe and a scale. Authentication is an ongoing battle. The counterfeiters have access to the same diagnostics, the same reference materials as the expert collectors. >>
An intelligent, well-thought-out thread. Thank you.
Also, how about the international organized crime groups that have access to even more resources than the TPGs? Head in the sand time for too many folks, including, perhaps, the TPGs.
<< <i>By buying from an established B&M coin shop, there is a good chance that the people will be there later just in case there is a problem. Not always, for sure, but your chances of finding him at his store are better than finding that guy that was at the flea market. >>
But what if neither of you can recognize the counterfeit?
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Personally, I'm no expert by any means, but in every single Chinese fake I've seen (and I've probably seen 20 to 50 of them in the last 3 years) it is so simple, under 10X magnification, to tell the real from the fake. >>
You don't even understand the corner into which you've painted yourself.
You recognize the bad fakes because they're bad fakes. You don't recognize the good fakes because...anyone?
That false sense of security just means you're setting yourself up to be a mark for the next generation of good fakes, or the round after that, or the round after that. Your faith in your ability to detect crappy fakes opens you up to falling for the good ones.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you can detect each generation of exponentially better fakes. Because very few people will be able to. And that will lead to the erosion of the collecting community and the collapse of the hobby.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>
Personally, I'm no expert by any means, but in every single Chinese fake I've seen (and I've probably seen 20 to 50 of them in the last 3 years) it is so simple, under 10X magnification, to tell the real from the fake. >>
You don't even understand the corner into which you've painted yourself.
You recognize the bad fakes because they're bad fakes. You don't recognize the good fakes because...anyone?
That false sense of security just means you're setting yourself up to be a mark for the next generation of good fakes, or the round after that, or the round after that. Your faith in your ability to detect crappy fakes opens you up to falling for the good ones.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you can detect each generation of exponentially better fakes. Because very few people will be able to. And that will lead to the erosion of the collecting community and the collapse of the hobby. >>
Then Let me put my first post another way.
If you can't tell a 'bad' Chinese fake from a genuine coin then it is definitely time to change hobbies and exit the coin business.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Personally, I'm no expert by any means, but in every single Chinese fake I've seen (and I've probably seen 20 to 50 of them in the last 3 years) it is so simple, under 10X magnification, to tell the real from the fake. >>
You don't even understand the corner into which you've painted yourself.
You recognize the bad fakes because they're bad fakes. You don't recognize the good fakes because...anyone?
That false sense of security just means you're setting yourself up to be a mark for the next generation of good fakes, or the round after that, or the round after that. Your faith in your ability to detect crappy fakes opens you up to falling for the good ones.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you can detect each generation of exponentially better fakes. Because very few people will be able to. And that will lead to the erosion of the collecting community and the collapse of the hobby. >>
Then Let me put my first post another way.
If you can't tell a 'bad' Chinese fake from a genuine coin then it is definitely time to change hobbies and exit the coin business. >>
There are all levels of fakes. The crudely made souvenir shop kind, often with a seam, the wrong weight, wrong sound because the metal is different. One step up is die cast from molds made from real coins, sometimes closer in weight, but still crude. Even the most casual collector can learn to spot these crudely made fakes. Up on the next level, the fakes are die struck, but have obvious mistakes such as the pre-1905 dated Morgan dollar fakes made with the reverse from the 1921 coin, or details such as the denticles or date or mintmark are clearly not right. This second level can be spotted by the hobbyist that is paying attention and may have read a book or two and/or seen the ANA video on counterfeits.
The highest quality fakes are of correct weight, die struck with detail paid to the advanced diagnostics for the coin. Sometimes is it the most minor of details that separates the real from the fake. For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. For many years, the TPGs provided an excellent line of defense against even these best fakes because they employed top experts and their full time job was to keep up with counterfeiters. What has changed recently is that the counterfeiters are also faking the slabs. Like the fake coins, some of the fake slabs have obvious errors. However, like the fake coins, there are likely some excellent fake slabs that only top experts can detect. Again, the intelligent counterfeiters will have ready access to diagnostics published about fake slabs--it is their business.
<< <i>For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. >>
Perhaps training and certification can increase this number
<< <i>
<< <i>For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. >>
Perhaps training and certification can increase this number
It might. However, staying on top of the latest fakes is an ongoing endeavor, not something that can be taught in a short course and be done with. The latter is okay for that second level of fakes, which is likely what the original poster wrote about, fakes that a trained person with a loupe and some diagnostics can spot most of the time. The ANA does teach a course on counterfeits and there are books and videos. However, taking the short course and reading the book, isn't enough against the best fakes.
For keeping up with the latest and greatest, it takes constant reeducation, updates, and many, many hours. That would likely limit it to full time expert dealers, top notch pro graders, and a very few obsessive hobbyists. Keep in mind that wider certification of experts would also mean a larger potential pool of experts to turn bad and join the counterfeiters, which in turn will make for better fakes. It is not an easy puzzle to solve.
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<< <i>
<< <i>For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. >>
Perhaps training and certification can increase this number
It might. However, staying on top of the latest fakes is an ongoing endeavor, not something that can be taught in a short course and be done with. The latter is okay for that second level of fakes, which is likely what the original poster wrote about, fakes that an educated person with a loupe and some diagnostics can spot most of the time. For keeping up with the latest and greatest, it takes constant reeducation, updates, and many, many hours. That would likely limit it to full time expert dealers, top notch pro graders, and a very few obsessive hobbyists. Keep in mind that wider certification of experts would also mean a larger potential pool of experts to turn bad and join the counterfeiters, which in turn will make for better fakes. It is not an easy puzzle to solve. >>
My guess is many people place too much reliance on people they assume are (and in reality probably should be) experts, e.g. full time B&M dealers. Certification can help hobbyists identify the experts easier. Many professional certifications require years of validated work experience in addition to classes and exams. Some also require an endorsement by an existing certified professional to limit the impact of questionable work validation. As for constant reeducation, many certifications require periodic exams and classes to stay up to date. In terms of helping the counterfeiters, the counterfeiters already have access to so much information, I'm not sure how much additional benefit they would gain. Many fields have certified professionals. Why shouldn't coin collectors and numismatics in general also benefit?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. >>
Perhaps training and certification can increase this number
It might. However, staying on top of the latest fakes is an ongoing endeavor, not something that can be taught in a short course and be done with. The latter is okay for that second level of fakes, which is likely what the original poster wrote about, fakes that an educated person with a loupe and some diagnostics can spot most of the time. For keeping up with the latest and greatest, it takes constant reeducation, updates, and many, many hours. That would likely limit it to full time expert dealers, top notch pro graders, and a very few obsessive hobbyists. Keep in mind that wider certification of experts would also mean a larger potential pool of experts to turn bad and join the counterfeiters, which in turn will make for better fakes. It is not an easy puzzle to solve. >>
My guess is many people place too much reliance on people they assume are (and in reality probably should be) experts, e.g. full time B&M dealers. Certification can help hobbyists identify the experts easier. Many professional certifications require years of validated work experience in addition to classes and exams. Some also require an endorsement by an existing certified professional to limit the impact of questionable work validation. As for constant reeducation, many certifications require periodic exams and classes to stay up to date. In terms of helping the counterfeiters, the counterfeiters already have access to so much information, I'm not sure how much additional benefit they would gain. Many fields have certified professionals. Why shouldn't coin collectors and numismatics in general also benefit? >>
Certification of dealers might be a very good idea. The PNG is the closest thing to what you are talking about. That said, real professional certification would likely meet a high level of resistance. Many dealers became dealers because they want to run their own show, not be told what to do, not be given an exam to pass or courses to study. A large group of collectors would see certification of dealers as another unnecessary monetary drain on the hobby. At the end of the day, the money needed to certify each dealer, is paid for by the collectors in the form of higher prices and wider spreads. Worth it? The collector community would have to think about it.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>For the very top quality fakes, there are perhaps fewer than 1000 people in the country that are qualified to authenticate. >>
Perhaps training and certification can increase this number
It might. However, staying on top of the latest fakes is an ongoing endeavor, not something that can be taught in a short course and be done with. The latter is okay for that second level of fakes, which is likely what the original poster wrote about, fakes that an educated person with a loupe and some diagnostics can spot most of the time. For keeping up with the latest and greatest, it takes constant reeducation, updates, and many, many hours. That would likely limit it to full time expert dealers, top notch pro graders, and a very few obsessive hobbyists. Keep in mind that wider certification of experts would also mean a larger potential pool of experts to turn bad and join the counterfeiters, which in turn will make for better fakes. It is not an easy puzzle to solve. >>
My guess is many people place too much reliance on people they assume are (and in reality probably should be) experts, e.g. full time B&M dealers. Certification can help hobbyists identify the experts easier. Many professional certifications require years of validated work experience in addition to classes and exams. Some also require an endorsement by an existing certified professional to limit the impact of questionable work validation. As for constant reeducation, many certifications require periodic exams and classes to stay up to date. In terms of helping the counterfeiters, the counterfeiters already have access to so much information, I'm not sure how much additional benefit they would gain. Many fields have certified professionals. Why shouldn't coin collectors and numismatics in general also benefit? >>
Certification of dealers might be a very good idea. The PNG is the closest thing to what you are talking about. That said, real professional certification would likely meet a high level of resistance. Many dealers became dealers because they want to run their own show, not be told what to do, not be given an exam to pass or courses to study. A large group of collectors would see certification of dealers as another unnecessary monetary drain on the hobby. At the end of the day, the money needed to certify each dealer, is paid for by the collectors in the form of higher prices and wider spreads. Worth it? The collector community would have to think about it. >>
To ease implementation and acceptance, dealers and collectors could choose whether to get certified and/or patronize certified dealers on an individual basis. By allowing individual choice, dealers could decide whether certification was beneficial for them. Likewise, collectors can decide whether they want their dealers to be certified or not. Certainly, many dealers and collectors may feel no need for this. But at the same time, there is clearly a large problem within the hobby that needs to be addressed.
<< <i>If you can't tell a Chinese fake from a genuine coin then it is definitely time to change hobbies and exit the coin business. >>
Them are strong words.