<< <i>SEGS is third tier for a reason. Anecdotal stories of good or bad grading by board members does not change their perceived standing in the coin collecting community. For those who think they are great, keep buying and cracking them, you will make money if you are right. >>
The problem with this statement is that it seems to ignore the fact that in the coin grading game, the crackout and crossover game effectively turn perception into reality.
When market realities dictate that almost all of your accurate work is cracked out or crossed over -- and all your mistakes remain for all to see -- of course you're going to look like a crappy, incompetent service.
<< <i>Just in case you would like to see it enlarged
>>
I have a classic head half eagle that is MS60/61 with the same wipe mark in the obverse field that PCGS put in an AU55 holder, this was before they began the genuine program and I'm sure they net graded it for the light wipe mark. If I were to crack it today I'm sure they would put it in a genuine holder.
<< <i>SEGS is third tier for a reason. Anecdotal stories of good or bad grading by board members does not change their perceived standing in the coin collecting community. For those who think they are great, keep buying and cracking them, you will make money if you are right. >>
The problem with this statement is that it seems to ignore the fact that in the coin grading game, the crackout and crossover game effectively turn perception into reality.
When market realities dictate that almost all of your accurate work is cracked out or crossed over -- and all your mistakes remain for all to see -- of course you're going to look like a crappy, incompetent service. >>
Yes, when you consider that after the crackouts of many of the perceived crossable coins, the price ratios of the existing populations (compared to sight seen) are
Considering all these services have their own proprietary standards, and have always traded at different pricing levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable. (Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous)
Factor in the extreme bias against anything other than PCGS and NGC due less to grading differences than superior marketing such as buying "offical grading service" endorsements from PNG and the ANA (which are supposed to be the ethical watchdogs,) one service's recent purchase of the certified coin exchange, Grading "guarantees" that are unbacked either by insurance or segregated reserves that would protect collectors if a grading company went into bankrupcty. Special co-marketing agreements with eBay and Teletrade to give subsidized grading of raw coins in exchange for banning coins from other services, etc. you have a situation which if mirrored in any other market that was regulated by the government, people would be in jail...
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I can't believe you wrote this and believe it :" but I can't even see anything wrong with the coin from the pictures". You can't rely on anything that you see from only a picture and you should know that because you are a dealer. >>
I have done this many times before,particularly with ANACS slabs. If they call it "scratched" and you can't see the scratch in the photo, when I see the coin in hand, it DOES HAVE A SCRATCH on it, but it's very minor, not a furrow.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
No such item. Looks like someone reported the fact that you won a SEGS coin to eBay and they killed the auction posthumously. >>
Yes, someone reported it and AFTER I had paid. This particular event tends to prove SEGS' legal argument about "restraint of trade" >>
This could spawn another thread about ebay's over reaching rules. IMO, they need to target the counterfeits more effectively than they have thus far. But, I have no problem with first second and third tier slabbed coins being offered on the bay. As many of us know, they presented real opportunities. Often, the discount exceeded any lattitude a second or third tier service used in arriving at a grade.
<<< Considering all these services have their own proprietary standards, and have always traded at different pricing levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable. (Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous) >>>
As far as I know it's not legally actionable to state ones OPINION about any given grading service, nor to state their personal experiences and opinions with the coins they've seen in any 3rd party graders holders.
I like them. I get a nice coin at a discount. What is wrong with that?? Of course i do not buy them sight unseen. Why does Northwest Nusmatics carry so many of them? (SEGS) I would guess they buy lots of raw coins that they think may have issues going the PCGS or NGC route? Or that they got rejected by PCGS and NGC so to be slabbed they go to SEGS?
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i><<< Considering all these services have their own proprietary standards, and have always traded at different pricing levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable. (Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous) >>>
As far as I know it's not legally actionable to state ones OPINION about any given grading service, nor to state their personal experiences and opinions with the coins they've seen in any 3rd party graders holders. >>
Your opinion is that you obviously don't like SEGS. That's fine. When you accuse them of slabbing whizzed coins, tooled coins, and blatantly AT'd coins that's not an opinion. Can you can provide the slab numbers or auction listings where such coins have been sold? Can you provide representative examples of such that can be verified? Do you have some expert witnesses lined up to back up your claims?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
no I can't supply any cert #'s and I didn't drag anyone with me to this particular B&M in nashville indiana...
(I doubt any records cert #'s to back up a future claim on someones "Inaccuracies" ...most just shake their head and move on.)
i'll witness one for you...
I collect doubled die cents.
I had been looking for a 1972 ddo-004...yep the toughest of the 72's to locate.
when lo-and-behold this guy in the B&M in nashville indiana has (3) yes three of them in...yep! you guessed it SEGS plastic.
1. was a 65 red....(looked to be a 65...so okay on that.) price = $ 575.00 2. was a 64 red....(looked to be no better than 63 and looked more red/brown...BUT, that may have occured in the holder ...so i'll allow leeway on that.) $ 400.00 3. also 64 red...(and while it was red ...it looked no better than AU- ? ....I'M thinking au-55-ish...pretty worn.) price also $ 400.00
so now i have visions of keeping the best of the 3 for me and getting rich off the other 2
I whip out my C.P. guide ...my loupe...and my trusty 30 power pocket microscope...(yes i really do take this stuff when on a coin safari.)
I told the guy that the label is incorrect...he gets all upset with me...tells me "your no expert...these guys at segs are gods!"
what he actually had was ...(3) 1972 ddo-003 DIE 3!
I held my ground and told him they were die 3...and he argued more and more (at the point of being mad enough to toss me out!)
so I gave him my buisness card and told him...
send all three to ANACS and have all 3 cracked out and graded by them...should any one of them come back a die 4 ...i'll buy all three at your prices + you grading fee ...time and trouble to mail them.
if they all come back from ANACS as die #3 (as I say)...then you keep them...
well.... he did so.
then had his daughter call me on the phone to say "my" coins have returned from ANACS...COME GET THEM!
COULD I HAVE BEEN WRONG?....(not likely)
this shop is 50+ miles from my house...when i got there...there they were!... three freshly slabbed Lincoln doubled dies ...one with a price of $ 575.00 on it ...a 2 with $ 400.00 on them!
all 3 ........................................DIE # 3
this guy still wanted me to buy them!
while occasionall there is great deals to be had by buying a coin that is in the afore mentioned plastic...it is not a common occurance! ...people there IS a pecking order when choosing a service ,and much thought should be considered when choosing who incapsulates your treasures .
The SEGS whizzed coin is marked whizzed on the label.
As far as cleaned or recolored, look at lot 306 here, for a PCGS MS62 Brown Large Cent that Heritage describes as "carefully cleaned and recolored," net 50.
<< <i>SEGS is completely worthless IMO, not because of the obvious overgrading issue but rather because from the sampling I've seen they will also routinely grade and holder problem coins that would immediatly get bagged at PCGS / NGC. I would treat SEGS holdered coins as raw (and be careful) and never ever buy one from an online pic or otherwise sight unseen. >>
<< <i>SEGS is completely worthless IMO, not because of the obvious overgrading issue but rather because from the sampling I've seen they will also routinely grade and holder problem coins that would immediatly get bagged at PCGS / NGC. I would treat SEGS holdered coins as raw (and be careful) and never ever buy one from an online pic or otherwise sight unseen. >>
You are without a clue to say that. >>
to wolf359:
actually, he does have a clue to say that...quite accurately too. 1. his opinion counts 100% to him (since he's the buyer and thats all that matters.) 2. I too have noticed they over grade...not horrendously but still 1 to 3 points...(not like a company that has everything "ms-70") 3. how can you have any clue to what he has sampled? (unless you are the little bird on his shoulder and you've seen all that he has seen.) 4. segs makes no bones about it.... they state that they WILL holder problem coins without a doubt...(and if they catch the problem...they'll name it.)...(big if.) 5. a wise man collector would first consider anything in a segs holder as a cadidate to be a problem coin...if not a problem...why segs?...best to ponder them first as "RAW" then move forward from there.
6. and finally...pictures are getting better... but still the coin needs to be seen in hand.
I've de-bunked your whole one line sumation of this board member.
I say he has more than a clue...and he'll probably make some good choices by NOT jumping to a quick judgement.
you on the other hand have jumped to a quick judgement on this fellow board member un-justly.
Got the SEGS Type 2 gold dollar AU50 scratched that ebay ended AFTER I paid for it ($211). Scratch is very minor, can't see it unless you catch it just right in the light. Easily worth $400. I will take a photo next time I am set up.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Got the SEGS Type 2 gold dollar AU50 scratched that ebay ended AFTER I paid for it ($211). Scratch is very minor, can't see it unless you catch it just right in the light. Easily worth $400. I will take a photo next time I am set up. >>
If FeeBay canceled the auction after it was over, do they still collect the FVF on the $211 sale price?
After all, if they cancel it, as far as they are concerned, there's no sale, right?
SEGS is a good grading service period. I have seen mistakes, and bad ones, in both pcgs and ngc holders. Remember beauty is in the eye of the (be)holder.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>SEGS is a good grading service period. I have seen mistakes, and bad ones, in both pcgs and ngc holders. Remember beauty is in the eye of the (be)holder. >>
Why are we bringing back a two-year old thread?
People should be looking at the coin, not the plastic it is in. I consider all coins in all holders when I am looking to buy. I am confident enough in my numismatic skills to determine whether or not I agree withthe given grade.
I haven't see too many SEGS coins ever. I only own one, a nicely toned Victorian Canada 5 cent piece in MS-60 that should probably be an AU-58. I think our hosts would have graded is AU-58, and ATS a tossup between 58 and 60.
<< <i>Here's some images of how SEGS matches up to NGC or PCGS. I wish I could find the original thread here on the forum when I posted " what grade is this? ) or something like that. That thread was also helpful in illustrating how little you can grade based on a picture.
In the beginning:
Sorry, no pic of my secret method of opening these dang holders but here's how it came out
And how it came back from slab-land:
I disagree with NGC on the net grade of this coin. This coin is UNC and lightly wiped. Not "scratched". >>
Ok so we have yet another opinion:
And yes the new owner also has all 3 sets of slabs!
There appears to be some burnishing in the right obverse fields. It may be more obvious when viewed in hand while being rotated under a good light source.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I haven't see too many SEGS coins ever. I only own one, a nicely toned Victorian Canada 5 cent piece in MS-60 that should probably be an AU-58. I think our hosts would have graded is AU-58, and ATS a tossup between 58 and 60. >>
An MS60 coin generally is heavily bag marked and has other problems and is usually not considered to have eye appeal. Whereas a true AU58 will generally be an attractive coin with minimal bag marks and just a slight trace of wear on the highest points of the coin. Overall the casual observer would be more apt to think the AU58 is more attractive than the MS60. Just my 2 cents.
Larry knows what he is doing but he's basically a one man operation. In my experience, which has been extensive, I feel they are every bit as good (maybe better) as the other "second tier" services.
I would consider SEGS a third tier grading sevice instead of a second tier grading service. I would rather buy raw coin than in a SEGS holder. At least I could see the rim on a raw coin.
<< <i>... I think they are an up and coming respectable service! ... >>
I didn't see a sarcasm emoticon here, so I'm going to comment. They're not exactly up and coming. Larry Briggs formed SEGS in the mid 1990s. While his intentions were noble and his grading and attribution skills are on par with the best of them, not everything went as desired. The TPG market leaders were well-entrenched by the time SEGS started, and SEGS could not capture significant market share or acceptance with their then-tight standards. Nobody wanted a derogatory comment on a SEGS holder when they could get the same coin in a PCGS, NGC, or ANACS holder. Then Teletrade opted not to allow their coins, and I believe there was some sort of fisticuff involving Heritage. This is still several years before the proliferation of "third world" TPGs that would be used to con people on eBay, and into which eBay would later group SEGS. Like PCI coins, there are probably plenty of "early" SEGS coins that are accurately graded. Since they never evolved their holder or label (didn't have to, since it was and is the best holder out there, IMHO), it is difficult to tell early from late. This really doesn't much matter, now, since everyone wants the decent coins in PCGS or NGC plastic. From what it seems, SEGS is on life support courtesy of Larry's coin business. Incidentally, Larry will only sparingly slab his coins in SEGS holders, as he never wanted to make himself look like one of those hypertrading self-slabbers. >>
In no uncertain terms, I like SEGS!! I did not know they have been around so long, my mistake. Some people on this forum don't know everything. I own two coins in segs holders and they have "IMO" been graded accurately. >>
SEGS began operations in 1998. I saw a prototype slab at the pre-ANA show in Cincinnati that was much more massive than the eventual product.
Comments
<< <i>SEGS is third tier for a reason. Anecdotal stories of good or bad grading by board members does not change their perceived standing in the coin collecting community. For those who think they are great, keep buying and cracking them, you will make money if you are right. >>
The problem with this statement is that it seems to ignore the fact that in the coin grading game, the crackout and crossover game effectively turn perception into reality.
When market realities dictate that almost all of your accurate work is cracked out or crossed over -- and all your mistakes remain for all to see -- of course you're going to look like a crappy, incompetent service.
<< <i>Just in case you would like to see it enlarged
I have a classic head half eagle that is MS60/61 with the same wipe mark in the obverse field that PCGS put in an AU55 holder, this was before they began the genuine program and I'm sure they net graded it for the light wipe mark. If I were to crack it today I'm sure they would put it in a genuine holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>SEGS is third tier for a reason. Anecdotal stories of good or bad grading by board members does not change their perceived standing in the coin collecting community. For those who think they are great, keep buying and cracking them, you will make money if you are right. >>
The problem with this statement is that it seems to ignore the fact that in the coin grading game, the crackout and crossover game effectively turn perception into reality.
When market realities dictate that almost all of your accurate work is cracked out or crossed over -- and all your mistakes remain for all to see -- of course you're going to look like a crappy, incompetent service. >>
Yes, when you consider that after the crackouts of many of the perceived crossable coins, the price ratios of the existing populations
(compared to sight seen) are
PCGS: 75.74%
NGC: 73.11%
ANACS: 56.39%
ICG: 67.62%
PCI: 48.28%
SEGS: 47.76%
Considering all these services have their own proprietary standards, and have always traded at different pricing
levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable.
(Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous)
Factor in the extreme bias against anything other than PCGS and NGC due less to grading differences
than superior marketing such as buying "offical grading service" endorsements from PNG and the ANA
(which are supposed to be the ethical watchdogs,) one service's recent purchase of the certified coin exchange,
Grading "guarantees" that are unbacked either by insurance or segregated reserves that would protect
collectors if a grading company went into bankrupcty. Special co-marketing agreements with eBay and
Teletrade to give subsidized grading of raw coins in exchange for banning coins from other services, etc.
you have a situation which if mirrored in any other market that was regulated by the government, people would be in jail...
<< <i>
I can't believe you wrote this and believe it :" but I can't even see anything wrong with the coin from the pictures".
You can't rely on anything that you see from only a picture and you should know that because you are a dealer. >>
I have done this many times before,particularly with ANACS slabs. If they call it "scratched" and you can't see the scratch in the
photo, when I see the coin in hand, it DOES HAVE A SCRATCH on it, but it's very minor, not a furrow.
<< <i>
<< <i>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190306077841 >>
No such item. Looks like someone reported the fact that you won a SEGS coin to eBay and they killed the auction posthumously. >>
Yes, someone reported it and AFTER I had paid. This particular
event tends to prove SEGS' legal argument about "restraint of trade"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190306077841 >>
No such item. Looks like someone reported the fact that you won a SEGS coin to eBay and they killed the auction posthumously. >>
Yes, someone reported it and AFTER I had paid. This particular
event tends to prove SEGS' legal argument about "restraint of trade" >>
This could spawn another thread about ebay's over reaching rules. IMO, they need to target the counterfeits more effectively than they have thus far. But, I have no problem with first second and third tier slabbed coins being offered on the bay. As many of us know, they presented real opportunities. Often, the discount exceeded any lattitude a second or third tier service used in arriving at a grade.
levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable.
(Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous) >>>
As far as I know it's not legally actionable to state ones OPINION about any given grading service, nor to state their personal experiences and opinions with the coins they've seen in any 3rd party graders holders.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i><<< Considering all these services have their own proprietary standards, and have always traded at different pricing
levels, calling some of these services "worthless" is not only unfair and unsupportable, but legally actionable.
(Likely the real reason that the biggest Koolaid drinkers are also the most anonymous) >>>
As far as I know it's not legally actionable to state ones OPINION about any given grading service, nor to state their personal experiences and opinions with the coins they've seen in any 3rd party graders holders. >>
Your opinion is that you obviously don't like SEGS. That's fine. When you accuse them of slabbing whizzed coins, tooled coins, and blatantly AT'd coins
that's not an opinion. Can you can provide the slab numbers or auction listings where such coins have been sold? Can you provide representative
examples of such that can be verified? Do you have some expert witnesses lined up to back up your claims?
(I doubt any records cert #'s to back up a future claim on someones "Inaccuracies" ...most just shake their head and move on.)
i'll witness one for you...
I collect doubled die cents.
I had been looking for a 1972 ddo-004...yep the toughest of the 72's to locate.
when lo-and-behold this guy in the B&M in nashville indiana has (3) yes three of them in...yep! you guessed it SEGS plastic.
1. was a 65 red....(looked to be a 65...so okay on that.) price = $ 575.00
2. was a 64 red....(looked to be no better than 63 and looked more red/brown...BUT, that may have occured in the holder ...so i'll allow leeway on that.) $ 400.00
3. also 64 red...(and while it was red ...it looked no better than AU- ? ....I'M thinking au-55-ish...pretty worn.) price also $ 400.00
so now i have visions of keeping the best of the 3 for me and getting rich off the other 2
I whip out my C.P. guide ...my loupe...and my trusty 30 power pocket microscope...(yes i really do take this stuff when on a coin safari.)
I told the guy that the label is incorrect...he gets all upset with me...tells me "your no expert...these guys at segs are gods!"
what he actually had was ...(3) 1972 ddo-003 DIE 3!
I held my ground and told him they were die 3...and he argued more and more (at the point of being mad enough to toss me out!)
so I gave him my buisness card and told him...
send all three to ANACS and have all 3 cracked out and graded by them...should any one of them come back a die 4 ...i'll buy all three at your prices + you grading fee ...time and trouble to mail them.
if they all come back from ANACS as die #3 (as I say)...then you keep them...
well.... he did so.
then had his daughter call me on the phone to say "my" coins have returned from ANACS...COME GET THEM!
COULD I HAVE BEEN WRONG?....(not likely)
this shop is 50+ miles from my house...when i got there...there they were!... three freshly slabbed Lincoln doubled dies ...one with a price of $ 575.00 on it ...a 2 with $ 400.00 on them!
all 3 ........................................DIE # 3
this guy still wanted me to buy them!
while occasionall there is great deals to be had by buying a coin that is in the afore mentioned plastic...it is not a common occurance!
...people there IS a pecking order when choosing a service ,and much thought should be considered when choosing who incapsulates your treasures .
<< <i>https://secure.bowersandmerena.com/auctions/lot_detail.aspx?auctionno=13140&SessionNo=1&LotNo=59 >>
The SEGS whizzed coin is marked whizzed on the label.
As far as cleaned or recolored, look at lot 306 here, for a PCGS MS62 Brown Large Cent that Heritage describes
as "carefully cleaned and recolored," net 50.
Link
<< <i>SEGS is completely worthless IMO, not because of the obvious overgrading issue but rather because from the sampling I've seen they will also routinely grade and holder problem coins that would immediatly get bagged at PCGS / NGC. I would treat SEGS holdered coins as raw (and be careful) and never ever buy one from an online pic or otherwise sight unseen. >>
You are without a clue to say that.
Free Trial
<< <i>
<< <i>SEGS is completely worthless IMO, not because of the obvious overgrading issue but rather because from the sampling I've seen they will also routinely grade and holder problem coins that would immediatly get bagged at PCGS / NGC. I would treat SEGS holdered coins as raw (and be careful) and never ever buy one from an online pic or otherwise sight unseen. >>
You are without a clue to say that. >>
to wolf359:
actually, he does have a clue to say that...quite accurately too.
1. his opinion counts 100% to him (since he's the buyer and thats all that matters.)
2. I too have noticed they over grade...not horrendously but still 1 to 3 points...(not like a company that has everything "ms-70")
3. how can you have any clue to what he has sampled? (unless you are the little bird on his shoulder and you've seen all that he has seen.)
4. segs makes no bones about it.... they state that they WILL holder problem coins without a doubt...(and if they catch the problem...they'll name it.)...(big if.)
5. a wise man collector would first consider anything in a segs holder as a cadidate to be a problem coin...if not a problem...why segs?...best to ponder them first as "RAW"
then move forward from there.
6. and finally...pictures are getting better... but still the coin needs to be seen in hand.
I've de-bunked your whole one line sumation of this board member.
I say he has more than a clue...and he'll probably make some good choices by NOT jumping to a quick judgement.
you on the other hand have jumped to a quick judgement on this fellow board member un-justly.
<< <i>Got the SEGS Type 2 gold dollar AU50 scratched that ebay ended AFTER I paid for it ($211). Scratch is very minor, can't see it unless you catch it just right in the light. Easily worth $400. I will take a photo next time I am set up. >>
If FeeBay canceled the auction after it was over, do they still collect the FVF on the $211 sale price?
After all, if they cancel it, as far as they are concerned, there's no sale, right?
Remember beauty is in the eye of the (be)holder.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>SEGS is a good grading service period. I have seen mistakes, and bad ones, in both pcgs and ngc holders.
Remember beauty is in the eye of the (be)holder. >>
Why are we bringing back a two-year old thread?
People should be looking at the coin, not the plastic it is in. I consider all coins in all holders when I am looking to buy. I am confident enough in my numismatic skills to determine whether or not I agree withthe given grade.
<< <i>Here's some images of how SEGS matches up to NGC or PCGS. I wish I could find the original thread here on the forum when I posted " what grade is this? ) or something like that. That thread was also helpful in illustrating how little you can grade based on a picture.
In the beginning:
Sorry, no pic of my secret method of opening these dang holders but here's how it came out
And how it came back from slab-land:
I disagree with NGC on the net grade of this coin. This coin is UNC and lightly wiped. Not "scratched". >>
Ok so we have yet another opinion:
And yes the new owner also has all 3 sets of slabs!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Where exactly is the obverse tooling? >>
There appears to be some burnishing in the right obverse fields. It may be more obvious when viewed in hand while being rotated under a good light source.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I haven't see too many SEGS coins ever. I only own one, a nicely toned Victorian Canada 5 cent piece in MS-60 that should probably be an AU-58. I think our hosts would have graded is AU-58, and ATS a tossup between 58 and 60. >>
An MS60 coin generally is heavily bag marked and has other problems and is usually not considered to have eye appeal.
Whereas a true AU58 will generally be an attractive coin with minimal bag marks and just a slight trace of wear on the highest points of the coin.
Overall the casual observer would be more apt to think the AU58 is more attractive than the MS60.
Just my 2 cents.
<< <i>Where exactly is the obverse tooling? >>
There isn't any.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>Where exactly is the obverse tooling? >>
There isn't any.
So you are saying SEGS had it right?
.....................................................
Buy the coin-not the slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>... I think they are an up and coming respectable service! ... >>
I didn't see a sarcasm emoticon here, so I'm going to comment. They're not exactly up and coming. Larry Briggs formed SEGS in the mid 1990s. While his intentions were noble and his grading and attribution skills are on par with the best of them, not everything went as desired. The TPG market leaders were well-entrenched by the time SEGS started, and SEGS could not capture significant market share or acceptance with their then-tight standards. Nobody wanted a derogatory comment on a SEGS holder when they could get the same coin in a PCGS, NGC, or ANACS holder. Then Teletrade opted not to allow their coins, and I believe there was some sort of fisticuff involving Heritage. This is still several years before the proliferation of "third world" TPGs that would be used to con people on eBay, and into which eBay would later group SEGS. Like PCI coins, there are probably plenty of "early" SEGS coins that are accurately graded. Since they never evolved their holder or label (didn't have to, since it was and is the best holder out there, IMHO), it is difficult to tell early from late. This really doesn't much matter, now, since everyone wants the decent coins in PCGS or NGC plastic. From what it seems, SEGS is on life support courtesy of Larry's coin business. Incidentally, Larry will only sparingly slab his coins in SEGS holders, as he never wanted to make himself look like one of those hypertrading self-slabbers. >>
In no uncertain terms, I like SEGS!! I did not know they have been around so long, my mistake. Some people on this forum don't know everything. I own two coins in segs holders and they have "IMO" been graded accurately. >>
SEGS began operations in 1998. I saw a prototype slab at the pre-ANA show in Cincinnati that was much more massive than the eventual product.